I've been reloading my rifles off and on for several years now, but I'm at the point where I'd really appreciate your inputs and techniques. I've read several websites, numerous articles, and watched several videos, but it seems like everyone has their technique that I can't seem to replicate. I'm not a bench shooter, but I will use a sled to take as much of the human element out of it. I have a chronograph sitting on a tripod, not the one attached to the barrel.

I have two rifles that I'm trying to work down the most consistent groupings (my .270 and a .308). These are only hunting rifles and I don't intend to compete in anything.

One technique: Determine the seating depth first, then determine the powder charge. To determine the seating depth, measure to the lands. Berger recommends groups of test loads at increments of .010", .050", .090", and .130" off the lands. Berger's website states that there is usually a "sweet spot" that is .030-.040" wide in seating depth, usually located between the lands and .150" jump off the lands. Therefore, testing seating depth in increments of .040" should allow you to find a length that shoots well. The powder charge used is the lowest (starter load) provided in the reloading books. Find the "best grouping."

Using that seating depth, build a "ladder" of charges. Using the starter load and 1% increases up to near the max charge. Shoot one shot from each charge weight in ascending order at the same target at 100 yards. Repeat this ladder two more times on clean targets, leaving ample time to allow the barrel to cool. Read the results of an accuracy node by finding three consecutive load steps grouped together.

Another technique (from 6.5 Guys): Determine the optimum velocity (powder charge), then determine the seating depth. Look at the powder charge provided in the reloading books, and pick a charge that is below your max load (your discretion). Then build 10 rounds with loads decreasing by .2. In my case, for the .308 the range is 44.0-47.0C, so say 46.4, 46.2, 46.0, 45.8, 45.6, 45.4, 45.2, 45.0, 44.8, 44.6.

Shooting those through a chronograph, find a flat spot (a velocity node), in the velocity where .4-.8 gr of powder doesn't move the speed much. This is your sweet spot with any powder for your gun. Once a velocity node is determined, then an adjustment with the COAL for tighter groups.

I'm not expecting perfection, just consistency. When does it become "good enough?"

Welcome to the rabbit hole that is reloading. You can always chase just a little bit more something (speed, lower s.d., etc.)

If you're not getting consistency while reloading, I would look to something in the gun itself. Either a stock rubbing, improperly torqued something in the stock/scope/rings/bases, trigger pull, etc.

I am by no means an expert, and have only done one load workup for accuracy. but I followed the second process.

Determined optimal Charge weight, went in .3 gr increments. 5 rounds at each charge weight. Found a 'flat spot' that was about .9 gr wide, and decided to push the middle.

Then I determined optimal seating depth. 6 rounds at each length, about .040" between them.
Ended up being WAY shorter than I was anticipating, and discovered the bullets I was using favored a long jump.



This was just for hunting purposes, so I called it good enough after that! A couple buddies that were more in the know encouraged me to fine tune it afterwards, but I'm not made of money and primers are expensive.

Sadly I did the load workup with bullets that aren't made anymore, so when I run out of these I will need to do another one.

With 6 shots at each size and based on your picture, I'm assuming you shot 2 sets of 3. Is that correct?

I use the optimum charge weight method. You can normally find a load rather quickly using that method. You can then decide if you want to fiddle with seating depth. Some guys do the reverse and start with seating depth. I have used this with great results.

Here is one I did with an old .270 I had rebuilt. I haven't had a chance to try and tweak the depth but it's shooting pretty good. The dots are .75".

In loading for best possible groups over many years one thing that greatly improved the results was checking for bullet concentricity. No matter how well you think you are doing it you will find that the bullets are not concentric coming out of your bullet seating die.
Use of a concentricity gauge will insure that the bullet is entering the lands straight which is imperative to accuracy and consistency.
Each cartridge must be checked to obtain this.

Start with a box of good ammo.

In general…If the gun doesn't group that ammo inside 1.5 at 100…reloading ain't going to make it a one hole shooter.

Guess what I'm saying…I've seen lots of guys chase accuracy with bad guns. Either crappy scopes or mounts or any number of gun probs that mean more than powder ladders and tweaking COAL

Also, read this:

Painless load development

https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/painless-load-development-mine.238400/

TikkaShooter said:

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Start with a box of good ammo.

In general…If the gun doesn't group that ammo inside 1.5 at 100…reloading ain't going to make it a one hole shooter.

Guess what I'm saying…I've seen lots of guys chase accuracy with bad guns. Either crappy scopes or mounts or any number of gun probs that mean more than powder ladders and tweaking COAL

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This has certainly not been my experience.

I guess I've just seen, being in this day of fantastic factory ammo, that if a 308 doesn't shoot Fed GMM, if a 6.5 doesn't shoot Horn ELDM, etc etc…then reloading ain't gonna solve it.

CactusThomas said:

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TikkaShooter said:

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Start with a box of good ammo.

In general…If the gun doesn't group that ammo inside 1.5 at 100…reloading ain't going to make it a one hole shooter.

Guess what I'm saying…I've seen lots of guys chase accuracy with bad guns. Either crappy scopes or mounts or any number of gun probs that mean more than powder ladders and tweaking COAL

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This has certainly not been my experience.

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Mine either.

Nor mine. Factory ammo has to meet SAMI specs so they will safely chamber in most all actions. No two rifles are alike. It has been my experience that with patience and effort I have always been able to develop handloads that allow my rifles be more accurate and shoot tighter groups and reach their potential better than any available factory round with few exceptions.

I will edit to further add that I have never developed a handload that was the "perfect load" for two like rifles and/ or cartridges.
Every rifle "liked"some different load to fully reach its potential.

HotelNiner said:

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With 6 shots at each size and based on your picture, I'm assuming you shot 2 sets of 3. Is that correct?

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Yeah, 6 total at each depth.

First, make sure your guns are "right" or you'll be chasing your tail.
Get a torque wrench and make sure your action screws are torqued down right.
Make sure scope is perfectly mounted and lock tite/polish your screws.
Make sure your technique is good off the bench. No rear sling stud issues, if they are light rifles make sure you're holding them correctly, etc.

If you're starting with high BC bullets like Barnes or Hornady ELDs, I would start with the seating depth then work up for velocity. Those bullets are more sensitive to jump then others.

If you're shooting more traditional form factor bullets I would work up by optimal charge weight first.

Also, there are a few tricks to setting up your dies for accuracy.

What brass, primers, bullets are you using? Good brass makes a lot of difference in my experience.

What dies and methods are you using? For example: on my hunting guns I like a Lee Collet die used in conjunction with a Redding Body die. There are other nicer/more expensive setups out there, but I like this one.

I neck size only until I get to where chambering a round takes some effort then I measure the shoulder length. After that I neck size and set up my body die to bump the shoulders 0.001".

I have also started annealing which makes a big difference for me. Look up John Barsness and reloading and he has some good stuff on 24hourcampfire.

Do you have a concentricity gauge? I like the one from Hornady. My bullet runout with the Neck/Body combo has improved considerably.

I think the overall consensus here is that you first have to determine if the rifle and its components are capable. Lots of ways to do that, but I think that at the very least - confirming some basic semblance of accuracy potential with factory ammo is a good place to start.

Reloading is a rabbit hole that is far too deep to run down with todays prices if the rifle isn't accurate to start with.

Keep it simple is all I'm advocating for. And with all the good shelf ammo out there, that's a good place to let your rifle talk.

I've sold a few guns bc they didn't shoot factory ammo. Known, good quality factory ammo. Why waste my powder and primers trying to make a gun into something it's not.

Just my take on where to start the hunt for good accuracy

Second on the Hornady Concentricity Guage. Works really well. Ditto also on neck sizing only.

First of all, to know what your rifle may be capable of we need to know what you have and how you are set up. Is this a stock barrel (or stock rifle)? Is the barrel bedded? Does the barrel have a sporter contour or is it a heavier barrel? Has the barrel been thoroughly cleaned? How is the trigger, and what is its pull weight? Are you using the right bullet for that particular barrel twist rate, and are you using a powder commonly accepted for that cartridge/bullet combination? Is your scope and mounts set up correctly with the proper cheek weld and parralax set correctly. These are all the things that you have to get right before even starting a load work-up routine. Then there is the set-up for proper analysis of load testing such as stable bench and rests. By the way, a lead sled is not the best means of rifle support. Front rest or bag, and rear bag are usually preferred to obtain a more consistent shot group, but a light smooth trigger is a also a must. So, once the all the basis are covered then start with one of the tried and trued routines for developing loads -- and there is no one best, there are several routines that can work equally well.

OCW method is my choice, ladder method is second, 5 shot groups are 3rd.

Once you find a powder charge and projectile combination that produces groups that are within whatever tolerance you are looking for, then you start playing with things in small increments to see what changes are made.

Start with seating depth - go in .005" increments either way of your baseline. I've had some guns that liked a jump, others that the projectile was nearly touching the lands.

Outside neck turn has always made a difference for me - the thickness of the brass is pretty inconsistent, getting it to a consistent (or mostly consistent - at least 80% of the neck) thickness makes a big difference in how the round sits in the chamber. Brass sizing - full length resize where you have about a .003"-.005" shoulder bump. Powder charge variations in .1 grain increments.

It usually takes some time, depending on where you want to be accuracy wise. Every now and again you get lucky and either don't need ot make any changes, or the first change gets everything dialed in just right. Once you find that perfect combo - keep a stock of the components you need on hand.

I always full length size on everything I own. I know a bunch of people like the Redding Type S bushing sizing dies, but I prefer a Forster FL sizing die with the decapper removed and honed to my specs. Check out some of Erik Cortina's videos.

Honest question to you..... why do you full length size? If you develop a load for a specific bolt action rifle and fire a round of that load in that rifle you have in effect fire- formed that case to your chamber dimensions
and have no need for full length resizing.... only neck sizing.
I understand if you are firing those rounds in a semi auto or even perhaps a lever gun.
My father in law got me started in handloading for accuracy about 40 years ago. He was a armorer for the Army Marksmanship Units and handloaded competition rounds for them. He was adamant about no need for full length sizing. I followed that instruction all these years.
Honestly asking what advantages you think it has if used in a bolt gun?
Also your thoughts on the brass fatigue incurred from full length sizing if you are loading the cases multiple times.
Thanks in advance for your knowledge.

I'm not JP…but I'm with him.

I always anneal. No more work hardening brass.

I always FL resize with a .002 bump.

For a bolt gun, the FL resize guarantees I'll get a chambered round.

No need to neck size when you bump shoulders with a FL die and set neck tension with a mandrel.

It's always been my process and seems to be the process of most of the F Class shooters I have spoken with. I started doing it because when I first got into reloading, I was doing it primarily for hunting rifles. I wanted to ensure proper extraction. I always measure my bump and never go more than .002" on bolt action rifles. I have never worried much about brass life because I primarily shoot 6.5X47 and the brass hardly grows and some pieces of mine have 15+ firings and still going strong.

The more I reload, the more I seem to simplify my process. I used to worry about a lot of things, but for what I do, I keep it pretty simple. I don't shoot competitively at the moment, so if I can keep my rifles 1/2 MOA or better out to 1K, I am happy with that. I don't turn brass, weigh brass, sort bullets, etc. I do check concentricity just to confirm my process. Buy Lapua brass and use a quality bullet and you won't have to mess with much.

Understand. But if I use that specific handload in only its specific bolt gun it will guarantee chambering without FL sizing as well. In addition... once fire formed it is the same dimensions time and again.
Thoughts?

You can go spend hours reading about it and get varying opinions. I do it because I always want proper extraction and it doesn't seem to degrade accuracy or reduce case life for me. I certainly don't know half of what some guys on here probably know. I do know what has worked for me.

I will relate my experience, For probably 40 years I have been deer hunting with a Savage 110 in 30.06. About that time my stepdad gave me an RCBS press and book that someone had and left with him as "collateral" for a case of beer- my stepdad owned and operated a little country store by Lake Sam Rayburn. Since the guy never came back for it he gave it to me, This was of course long before Google and Youtube. So I was a self taught reloader. The bullet that I found that gave me the best accuracy was Sierra's 168 gr. boat tail hollow point. Shot one deer with it at close distance and didn't like the performance. Not being a big fan of heavy bullets I settled on the 165 gr BTSP. I quit reloading several years ago- found myself not shooting as much as I used to and frankly reloading became something of a pain in the ass between decapping, measuring and sizing, tumbling, and loading with a single stage press plus factory ammo became a little better and more consistant. Because I shot a lot I build a shooting bench in my pasture and set up a target holder at 100 yards. I put together a load that at 100 yards off the bench and a crappy gun vise put three bullets thru the same hole. Took my first shot and was about 2" high dead on. Took my second shot, looked thru my spotting scope and only saw one hole. Couldn't believe I would have missed the target so walked down to look. Saw only one hole but the edges were a little ragged. Went back and shot a third round and saw the same thing thru the spotting scope- one hole. Decided to shoot a fourth round only this time I aimed about six inches below the bull. This time I got a second hole in the target....about six inches below the other hole. So you can come up with something that will make you happy- just keep working on it.

Because with neck size only, you cannot guarantee that you have te brass oriented exactly the way it was in the chamber the last time it was fired.

Chambers are not perfectly round, so you dont get the same headspace each time.

With FL sizing, you eliminate this variable. Minimal energy is expended on expansion on a FL sizedround, especially one with a small shoulder setback. You are more consistent this way than neck sizing only.

You also dont have brass sticing issues with FL sized rounds, which you do with neck sized only, especially after a few firings.

Good info thanks. Just for years was taught not to by a gaggle of military armorers and had no issues or problems. However they case trimmed and turned each one as well.