Hello OB. I am genuinely puzzled here. I purchased a suppressor on line, reputable dealer. The DOP believe it or not was January, 2018. After about 18 months I started to get a little concerned. I contacted the federally approved organization that it was shipped to. I was told sometimes these things take a little time. I knew this but still. He suggested I give it a little more time. This was my first suppressor purchase so I didn't think too much of it. So after 2 years (Early part of this year) I've been in contact with the person holding it off and on. The last conversation I had with him was 2 months ago. I asked him to look to make sure he actually has it. He was supposed to get back with me and I have not heard anything. I have left a message or 2. The last message I left was I wanted to come by and at least see it. No word.
So, I call the ATF. They have no record of the serial number at all. They suggested I contact the dealer which I have done this morning and they are looking into it. What to do here? Has anyone ever heard or experienced anything like this?

AUAg92 said:

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Hello OB. I am genuinely puzzled here. I purchased a suppressor on line, reputable dealer. The DOP believe it or not was January, 2018. After about 18 months I started to get a little concerned. I contacted the federally approved organization that it was shipped to. I was told sometimes these things take a little time. I knew this but still. He suggested I give it a little more time. This was my first suppressor purchase so I didn't think too much of it. So after 2 years (Early part of this year) I've been in contact with the person holding it off and on. The last conversation I had with him was 2 months ago. I asked him to look to make sure he actually has it. He was supposed to get back with me and I have not heard anything. I have left a message or 2. The last message I left was I wanted to come by and at least see it. No word.
So, I call the ATF. They have no record of the serial number at all. They suggested I contact the dealer which I have done this morning and they are looking into it. What to do here? Has anyone ever heard or experienced anything like this?

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I'd email them and say in 7 days you are reporting it as stolen to law enforcement in their city.

That may spur them on to find it.

So the ATF has no record of your stamp application?
This is a good excuse to always send your own check with the forms so you have a good starting point when the check was cashed by ATF to begin processing your paperwork.

Curious who the dealer was you used? Sounds super shady taking this long.

So you have the actual serial number of your can? Try contacting the manufacturer to see if the can actually exists. They should be able to tell you what dealer it was sent to. If they say it doesnt exist then likely time to get a lawyer involved because you are either getting scammed or the dealer is doing some shady business. Might have to pursue small claims court to get your money back.

I went through some very weird circles when I bought one of my cans through Gun Corp then they went out of business. I was able to confirm ATF had my application and when the application was approved. I was even able to confirm the physical location of the can after multiple calls with ATF (agents? or office staff) and was eventually able to arrange pick up through a different FFL who was cooperating with the ATF

dubi said:

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AUAg92 said:

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Hello OB. I am genuinely puzzled here. I purchased a suppressor on line, reputable dealer. The DOP believe it or not was January, 2018. After about 18 months I started to get a little concerned. I contacted the federally approved organization that it was shipped to. I was told sometimes these things take a little time. I knew this but still. He suggested I give it a little more time. This was my first suppressor purchase so I didn't think too much of it. So after 2 years (Early part of this year) I've been in contact with the person holding it off and on. The last conversation I had with him was 2 months ago. I asked him to look to make sure he actually has it. He was supposed to get back with me and I have not heard anything. I have left a message or 2. The last message I left was I wanted to come by and at least see it. No word.
So, I call the ATF. They have no record of the serial number at all. They suggested I contact the dealer which I have done this morning and they are looking into it. What to do here? Has anyone ever heard or experienced anything like this?

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I'd email them and say in 7 days you are reporting it as stolen to law enforcement in their city.

That may spur them on to find it.

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How could it be stolen? He doesn't legally own the suppressor until the NICS check is done by the transferring FFL after the Form 4 has been approved. Up until that point, the transferring FFL can cancel the transaction at any time. Definitely a civil issue.

The whole timeline is weird though.

OP who was the seller and who is the transferring FFL? Is the FFL currently holding it a retail business or kitchen table FFL? The FFL has an option on the Form 4 to keep the ATF from giving you the status. That could be what you ran into.

They took his money and do not have the suppressor?

Then a refund is in order asap if they can't find it.

I purchased the suppressor from Modern Warriors, LLC out of Utah. The transferring FFL was to 4Ward Defense in Cypress. Modern Warriors have always been very helpful and seem super legit. He was the one who told me to call ATF and gave me their number. He also said to ask to speak to the agent assigned to it and be adamant about it. Sometimes they may try to brush you off he said. I didn't ask to speak to an agent because there was no record of the Serial number. If there is a place on the Form 4 for the ATF not releasing info shouldn't he have at least told me that? Instead he said there is no record of that SN.

I tried to buy my first suppressor through a local individual in N Dallas many years ago. I remained patient for over 12 months and eventually pressured this guy hard for a meaningful update. What he finally admitted is that he never filed the paperwork for the form 4 with the ATF and had wasted all my wait time for nothing. This person did refund me in full but it kept me from buying through small individual dealers the next time.

Your experience sounds similar to me. They owe you a refund in full.

dubi said:

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They took his money and do not have the suppressor?

Then a refund is in order asap if they can't find it.

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That's not theft when a business is involved. The business contracted to provide a service, and failed to provide it, which is a contracts issue and is civil. I'd be curious if your son would take a theft report on something like this?

I think the OP should get their can over a refund considering how long it's been and the challenges of dealing with NFA paperwork

AUAg92 said:

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I purchased the suppressor from Modern Warriors, LLC out of Utah. The transferring FFL was to 4Ward Defense in Cypress. Modern Warriors have always been very helpful and seem super legit. He was the one who told me to call ATF and gave me their number. He also said to ask to speak to the agent assigned to it and be adamant about it. Sometimes they may try to brush you off he said. I didn't ask to speak to an agent because there was no record of the Serial number. If there is a place on the Form 4 for the ATF not releasing info shouldn't he have at least told me that? Instead he said there is no record of that SN.

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Did Modern Warriors suggest using 4ward? Did you ever go into 4ward and complete a Form 4? If you didn't, the clock never started on your side. You wouldn't be able to do the Form4 until the Form3 was approved and Modern Warriors shipped the can to 4ward. Modern Warriors can tell you if that happened. ATF should tell you they can't release the information to you. If they said they don't see the transfer, that would be unusual and make me suspect the Form4 may not have been submitted

Looks like 4ward has a big building and range. I expected this to be a kitchen table FFL. Their FFL# is 5-76-201-07-3D-05571

First step IMO is to verify the Form3 was approved and Modern Warriors actually shipped the can to 4ward.

Streetfighter 02 said:

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I tried to buy my first suppressor through a local individual in N Dallas many years ago. I remained patient for over 12 months and eventually pressured this guy hard for a meaningful update. What he finally admitted is that he never filed the paperwork for the form 4 with the ATF and had wasted all my wait time for nothing. This person did refund me in full but it kept me from buying through small individual dealers the next time.

Your experience sounds similar to me. They owe you a refund in full.

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Yep, this happened to me a few years ago from a fellow ag. Pretty much a waste of 200 bucks for the lawyer fee trust fund setup and time.... Haven't looked at buying a suppressor since

txyaloo said:

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dubi said:

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They took his money and do not have the suppressor?

Then a refund is in order asap if they can't find it.

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That's not theft when a business is involved. The business contracted to provide a service, and failed to provide it, which is a contracts issue and is civil. I'd be curious if your son would take a theft report on something like this?

I think the OP should get their can over a refund considering how long it's been and the challenges of dealing with NFA paperwork

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I believe FRAUD is the word you are looking for.

As alluded to in other posts, these items are tightly controlled and forms must be filed for every movement from place to place to place. First step is finding out where it is today.

montanagriz said:

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Streetfighter 02 said:

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I tried to buy my first suppressor through a local individual in N Dallas many years ago. I remained patient for over 12 months and eventually pressured this guy hard for a meaningful update. What he finally admitted is that he never filed the paperwork for the form 4 with the ATF and had wasted all my wait time for nothing. This person did refund me in full but it kept me from buying through small individual dealers the next time.

Your experience sounds similar to me. They owe you a refund in full.

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Yep, this happened to me a few years ago from a fellow ag. Pretty much a waste of 200 bucks for the lawyer fee trust fund setup and time.... Haven't looked at buying a suppressor since

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Well..... if you already have the trust set up, go through a reputable store and get one! Dont let one a-hole ruin your experience. I didnt know much about the process before getting my first one either but buying through silencer shop and getting shipped to Champion here in B/CS couldnt have been easier.

agfan2013 said:

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montanagriz said:

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Streetfighter 02 said:

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I tried to buy my first suppressor through a local individual in N Dallas many years ago. I remained patient for over 12 months and eventually pressured this guy hard for a meaningful update. What he finally admitted is that he never filed the paperwork for the form 4 with the ATF and had wasted all my wait time for nothing. This person did refund me in full but it kept me from buying through small individual dealers the next time.

Your experience sounds similar to me. They owe you a refund in full.

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Yep, this happened to me a few years ago from a fellow ag. Pretty much a waste of 200 bucks for the lawyer fee trust fund setup and time.... Haven't looked at buying a suppressor since

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Well..... if you already have the trust set up, go through a reputable store and get one! Dont let one a-hole ruin your experience. I didnt know much about the process before getting my first one either but buying through silencer shop and getting shipped to Champion here in B/CS couldnt have been easier.

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The trust should still be valid so if you chose to do so you could buy any other NFA item and have that trust control it.

Reporting it to the ATF would carry a lot of weight since the items are so tightly controlled.

You are spot on here txyaloo. Modern Warriors has looked into it as they promised and contacted ATF. They sent me a copy of the email correspondence. ATF tracked down the Form 3. Approved April, 2018. I set up a trust and did indeed go to 4Ward's office which was separate from the building/ range you mention unless they moved. Anyway, I had everything done, prints, photos, paperwork and paid. ATF has not received Form 4. This tells me 4Ward dropped the ball here big time. He's either lost it or it's still on his shelf somewhere.

AUAg92 said:

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You are spot on here txyaloo. Modern Warriors has looked into it as they promised and contacted ATF. They sent me a copy of the email correspondence. ATF tracked down the Form 3. Approved April, 2018. I set up a trust and did indeed go to 4Ward's office which was separate from the building/ range you mention unless they moved. Anyway, I had everything done, prints, photos, paperwork and paid. ATF has not received Form 4. This tells me 4Ward dropped the ball here big time. He's either lost it or it's still on his shelf somewhere.

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That's super frustrating. The ATF can sometimes be more accommodating in getting forms processed more quickly in situations like this.

I'd be concerned they were using your can on their range or something. I would think in 3.5yrs someone on staff would have said "what's this can sitting here?"

You might reach out to ATF Industry Operations in Houston. The IOIs are who oversees FFLs, conducts their audits, and manages their compliance. I doubt they will be able to do anything since legally the FFL owns the can until the F4 is approved and the suppressor is in your hands, but they could have thoughts.

Group VI IO Field Office
Voice: (281) 716-8330

Group VII IO Field Office
Voice: (281) 716-8360

agfan2013 said:

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montanagriz said:

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Streetfighter 02 said:

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I tried to buy my first suppressor through a local individual in N Dallas many years ago. I remained patient for over 12 months and eventually pressured this guy hard for a meaningful update. What he finally admitted is that he never filed the paperwork for the form 4 with the ATF and had wasted all my wait time for nothing. This person did refund me in full but it kept me from buying through small individual dealers the next time.

Your experience sounds similar to me. They owe you a refund in full.

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Yep, this happened to me a few years ago from a fellow ag. Pretty much a waste of 200 bucks for the lawyer fee trust fund setup and time.... Haven't looked at buying a suppressor since

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Well..... if you already have the trust set up, go through a reputable store and get one! Dont let one a-hole ruin your experience. I didnt know much about the process before getting my first one either but buying through silencer shop and getting shipped to Champion here in B/CS couldnt have been easier.

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The thing is I am not sure the trust got set up. I never got clarification from the gun dealer which is who I turned all the paperwork into for his lawyer to set up. I didn't get a refund on that $200 but never got clarification or the lawyers name he used. It was pulling teeth to get my refund back. Apparently my paperwork among others was misplaced....

Thought I would give a status update and also thank you all for the responses.
Finally heard back from the FFL. He informed me that there were errors on the Form 4 that have to be corrected. He now has to redraft all the paperwork and I will need to sign. He has offered to come by my place of work which I have accepted. At this point I guess there is nothing else that I can do about it. I will see if there is any way as suggested above to expedite all this BS. Otherwise, I guess it might be another long wait.

AUAg92 said:

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Thought I would give a status update and also thank you all for the responses.
Finally heard back from the FFL. He informed me that there were errors on the Form 4 that have to be corrected. He now has to redraft all the paperwork and I will need to sign. He has offered to come by my place of work which I have accepted. At this point I guess there is nothing else that I can do about it. I will see if there is any way as suggested above to expedite all this BS. Otherwise, I guess it might be another long wait.

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He's full of ***** If there are errors, the ATF generally has the FFL correct the existing forms that are in process. You don't have to submit new forms. Ask him what the errors are... My guess is they lost the original forms and are making you start over. Be wary if they ask you for another $200...

txyaloo said:

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AUAg92 said:

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Thought I would give a status update and also thank you all for the responses.
Finally heard back from the FFL. He informed me that there were errors on the Form 4 that have to be corrected. He now has to redraft all the paperwork and I will need to sign. He has offered to come by my place of work which I have accepted. At this point I guess there is nothing else that I can do about it. I will see if there is any way as suggested above to expedite all this BS. Otherwise, I guess it might be another long wait.

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He's full of ***** If there are errors, the ATF generally has the FFL correct the existing forms that are in process. You don't have to submit new forms. Ask him what the errors are... My guess is they lost the original forms and are making you start over. Be wary if they ask you for another $200...

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This.

I fear this guy screwed the pooch and lost your forms. Rather than owning up to it, he is using a BS excuse and making you start over. He is offering to come to you, hoping he will seem nice and you won't dig any deeper. I would demand to see the errors that needed to be corrected. This smells fishy

txyaloo said:

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AUAg92 said:

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Thought I would give a status update and also thank you all for the responses.
Finally heard back from the FFL. He informed me that there were errors on the Form 4 that have to be corrected. He now has to redraft all the paperwork and I will need to sign. He has offered to come by my place of work which I have accepted. At this point I guess there is nothing else that I can do about it. I will see if there is any way as suggested above to expedite all this BS. Otherwise, I guess it might be another long wait.

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He's full of ***** If there are errors, the ATF generally has the FFL correct the existing forms that are in process. You don't have to submit new forms. Ask him what the errors are... My guess is they lost the original forms and are making you start over. Be wary if they ask you for another $200...

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So just signed all the papers… again. In a nutshell, he's been sitting on these papers all this time. There was an error in paperwork involving the way the trust was set up but the forms were never submitted. I was able to see the method of payment on my old form for the tax stamp and it was never paid. Checked all my statements to confirm. You could tell he knew he F'd up. I asked him about classes he offered for defense. He offered me a free 6 hr class of my choosing for the screw up. I will take him up on that. Just sucks now that I have to wait another year most likely. Thanks again for all the help.