I have a relative looking to buy about 100 acres or less in East Texas. He has become obsessed with the idea of selling the timber on the property to generate Income. Does anyone have any experience with this? Thanks in advance, any and all comments or advice welcome.

What kind of timber? Hardwood or plantation pines? Wife's family has some pines and the market has been terrible for a while now and no sign (for them) of it picking up and getting the trees sold any time soon. I think they've had them under contract twice in the last three years and it fell through because they couldn't find a mill to take them. There's a LOT of standing pines throughout the southeast that were planted 20-30 years ago that have yet to be cut. Just take any daytime flight from DFW or IAH to ATL and look down!

He's convinced there's a market for pine, and that he'll be able to sit back and field offers from timber companies. Trying to talk some sense into him.

Your relative is wrong. Always a market, but it ain't worth much. And the mills know it.

Big Bucks said:

---

Your relative is wrong. Always a market, but it ain't worth much. And the mills know it.

---

The market is the highest it's been in a long time right now.

There's a market for pine for sure. Buying 100ish acres will only generate revenue when you thin it (at 12-14 years old) or when you harvest it (18+ years old ideally)...if the entire 100 acres is 18+ years old, that timber would be worth between 750-1k per acre if you clear cut.

My understanding is some of the big timber companies sold out to REITS several years ago. Part of the deals were long term contracts at pretty low prices-mills don't have much incentive to pay more than the long-term contract prices. Lumber prices are way up-timber prices not so much. My understanding from a timber management consultant friend of mine.

I asked my wife's folks where they get pricing info for the general market. TimberMart South (http://tmart-south.com/index.html) is where they directed me. It appears multiple state extension services use the data also. Prices look pretty flat.

In their part of the world, mill availability is a big hurdle - may be different than where the OP'S property is. They did tell me that at the current prices, they'd just barely break even if they decided to replant. They did ok with their thinning about 12 years ago, but aren't optimistic about the near term.

So basically the Great Southeastern Forest will be there for all our post-apocalyptic scenarios.

Thanks for the response, I appreciate the info. Just out of curiosity do you know how small of an area would even be considered for clear cutting? I'd imagine that they would want to do the majority of such a small piece of land at once.

Its a buyer's market to be sure. Timbermart south has very good information, however its not specific to every area and market; they'll take state averages of what pulpwood, CNS, sawtimber are going for. If he thinks he can take bids and have folks begging for his timber, I want to see that tract. Is it road frontage? How far from the mil? Also will he do a pay-as-cut or lump some contract?
Pine plantations are generally first thinned at age 15. Sometimes as early as 12, but if you wait til 18, you've incurred some loss due to growth limitation. Second thinning about age 25, Final cut (clearcut) around 30, as late as 40. Pulpwood market is terrible right now, btw. Timber markets are regional, and the closed to the mill, and easier access for the logger, the better your chances of 1. Getting someone to even bid on it, and 2. Getting a decent price.

I'd have a trusted forester look and tell me whats out there before i bought. Beware the timber pimps. They have ways of stealing from a landowner that you've never even imagined.

ChrisHansen said:

---

Thanks for the response, I appreciate the info. Just out of curiosity do you know how small of an area would even be considered for clear cutting? I'd imagine that they would want to do the majority of such a small piece of land at once.

---

On our place in Mississippi we rotate on 20-30ac tracts. When we were getting our plan implemented we would usually sell some thinning along with each clearcut tract to make the thin more economical as well as bring a little extra volume into the whole sale to entice more bidders. What someone will bid on depends on a lot of factors but if you're a long way from a mill and there's not a lot of other activity going on you may have a hard time selling 20-30ac at a time, much less getting a commercial thin (one that pays you rather than you having to pay to have it done) out of it. I've frequently gotten better bids and been able to get loggers to work our smaller tracts when they already had other jobs nearby and didn't have to do a big move to come to our place. There are a couple ways to make small tracts work but as the above post mentions, the golden days of southern pine farming are gone for the time being, tell your buddy not to get his hopes up thinking he can pick up land and have the timber pay his mortgage for him. Fortunately hunting leases continue to get more popular/scarce/expensive so that helps. Pay a lot of attention to micropterus' post. Good stuff there

Appreciate the advice. I'm afraid this relative isn't gonna be talked out of this idea by the internet, hopefully a forester will be able to get through to him.

Sounds to me like he's getting advice from several foresters on the internet

Tell them to quit dealing with foresters. Depending on where this is contact different logging companies and have them cruise the timber and bid- many logging companies actually buy the standing timber to take to the mills rather than just contract out to cut and haul.

Tell them to quit dealing with foresters. Depending on where this is contact different logging companies and have them cruise the timber and bid- many logging companies actually buy the standing timber to take to the mills rather than just contract out to cut and haul.

Tell them to quit dealing with foresters. Depending on where this is contact different logging companies and have them cruise the timber and bid- many logging companies actually buy the standing timber to take to the mills rather than just contract out to cut and haul.

We are cutting right now in Nac County. Market is not bad at all.

My buddy has family land in NW Louisiana. They have had timber cut for many generations and it is a nice chunk of change when it happens. I'm not in on all the costs, etc, but I know it has been good for them in the long run. I also know it is family land that is paid off and has been owned since WW2. I don't know if it would make the payments on timber alone. Also, you only get timber money once ever 12 or 20 years, and only one of those will be a substantial payment, as the other is usually just thinning.

Russ79 said:

---

Tell them to quit dealing with foresters. Depending on where this is contact different logging companies and have them cruise the timber and bid- many logging companies actually buy the standing timber to take to the mills rather than just contract out to cut and haul.

---

It's a lot of work to do this correctly, so it's usually worth it to have a forester do it for you for his 10%. He can also set up your prep and replanting for you.

I get that there are tons of factors involved but if somebody bought 100 acres in Polk County with merchantable timber, could you conceivably pre-negotiate to have it commercially thinned as a one-time deal?

I know there's no chance I'm the first person to have this idea but say I wanted to buy 100 acres for recreational purposes and the place has enough timber for a commercial thinning how would somebody set it up to have the timber pre-sold at say $500/acre in a short time after closing on the purchase? Keep in mind I'm just pulling this out of my ass on the numbers.

In my mind I'm seeing this as:
1) identify property
2) get under contract
3) get timber co. under contract to thin the property at $500/acre (whatever the market might be)
4) timber gets thinned out and one gets paid
5) that $50K in timber reduces my $3,000 per acre place to a $2500 per acre basis in the deal

a buddy of mine at our Superbowl party last night is VP of Ops for a major homebuilder. his biggest pain point right now is finding enough lumber. it is even affecting the ability to make concrete slabs for their homes.

shocking to hear of anyone saying the timber market is bad. they'd pay up.

Timber amd lumber markets are sort of like beef cows and dairy cows. Same material, different economics.

Layne Staley said:

---

a buddy of mine at our Superbowl party last night is VP of Ops for a major homebuilder. his biggest pain point right now is finding enough lumber. it is even affecting the ability to make concrete slabs for their homes.

shocking to hear of anyone saying the timber market is bad. they'd pay up.

---

Lumber market =\= timber market.

I ran wood procurement for one of those large timber companies for years. You're better off dealing with the sawmill directly if you can; that usually translates to better pricing than going through one of their surrogates (wood dealers). Prices are up now from their recent lows, but not near the peak of the 90's. That was a unique time and not likely to repeat soon due to the supply/demand balance across the South. I own >100 acres myself and will sell/harvest this summer.

One more observation, unless your relative is buying from an uninformed seller, the value of the timber will be reflected in the sale price of the land. If bare land value is $2,500/acre and the timber is worth $1,000/acre, a seller will want $3,500/acre. Not saying there aren't sweetheart deals out there to be found, but they're rare for the novice buyer. There are "timber pimps" who make their living sniffing out and snapping up the sweetheart deals as they come along.

Full draw what is the current price per ton at the mill you are delivering to for the logs in the photo you posted?

Mas89 said:

---

Full draw what is the current price per ton at the mill you are delivering to for the logs in the photo you posted?

---

$22/ton for the pine logs
Everything else is of course way less. I'm not an "experienced" timber seller. I just know my forester felt I had gotten the best deal I could under the current circumstances. There's obviously a lot to it finding mills to take them etc. if you have a regular job, I DEFINITELY recommend a forester, one that truly has your best interest at heart.

And those aren't considered "logs" I believe. Hell I don't know what they would fall under. A couple of guys above could probably tell at a glance.
Chip and saw
Post
Pulpwood

Most of what I'm thinning likely pulpwood.

Last time we did a sale i believe they called that "woods load" or "woods run" or something like that. Basically oversize pulpwood they could whittle a couple #2 boards out of to add a little value

We planted 20 acres of long leaf. It's not a large percentage of our place but I just wanted to do it for my grandkids (if I ever have any). My forester did all the leg work but he's a good friend and we spend a lot of time up there.

For you guys who have had your timber property 'clear cut' -- How good of job do they do?

I guess what I'm asking is do they leave a lot of crap behind? How close to the ground are the stumps cut?

If a person decided they did NOT want to replant for timber, would there be a lot of additional work required in order to use the surface of the land? Would you need to bring in a hydroax after the clear cutting to clean it all up?

Thanks. The property I'm thinking about is about 55 acres in Newton County, Texas, with a mix of loblolly, native pine and oak, if that matters at all.

You can write the contract however you want. If you want them to take everything >1"dbh you can put that in the bid letter, or you can try and maximize bids and just budget to have it windrowed and sprayed after

FullDraw said:

---

We planted 20 acres of long leaf. It's not a large percentage of our place but I just wanted to do it for my grandkids (if I ever have any). My forester did all the leg work but he's a good friend and we spend a lot of time up there.

---

Awesome! Love longleafs! If you're like me you're already excited about your first burn!

FullDraw said:

---

And those aren't considered "logs" I believe. Hell I don't know what they would fall under. A couple of guys above could probably tell at a glance.
Chip and saw
Post
Pulpwood

Most of what I'm thinning likely pulpwood.

---

You measure the tops, and that's what determines the category and price.