With a few hundred rounds of 1x shot factory Hornady brass, I was ready to try cooking up something good for my 6.5 deer rifle.

Rifle:

Tikka CTR 6.5
18" barrel
TBAC muzzle break
TBAC Ultra 7

Load information:

Hornady 1x shot brass, neck sized with Lee Collet Die
Fed 210 primers
Sierra Gamechanger 130 at 2.815
IMR 4350 - 41gr

Bullets seated with Hornady's custom seater dies. I test COAL with a sharpie on the ogive.

This load was VERY accurate. I'll get a photo up next. I wanted the H4350 version, but with an 8lb tub of IMR, I gave it a go. Looks like it will be just fine, thought I will test this summer as temps go up. IMR is known as being a little more temp sensitive.

Passing along incase anyone is looking for a good 6.5 load. Hope to test this on a deer soon.

7 shots at 100 yards. Was going to do 10, but stopped after this:

I mean, that's pretty good but my Bergara shoots 7 in the same hole



/mfbarnes

H4350 and IMR 4350 are essentially the same powder

ttha_aggie_09 said:

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I mean, that's pretty good but my Bergara shoots 7 in the same hole



/mfbarnes

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False. Mfbarnes and his hardworking oil money would never buy something so common.

Custom hand milled to .000006 tolerance or nothing.

there are several 4350 powders they are NOT directly interchangeable. ALWAYS check the load data for the 4350 you are using

GREAT load and shooting! Did you measure it? Chrony?

I didn't run it over a chrono. I won't be too tempted to chase velocity out of this rifle. The barrel has been cut to 18, and if these 130s make it to 2750, I'll be tickled. Primary goal was accuracy (check) out of a high BC hunting bullet. Performance on game TBD. Hopefully next weekend.

I had a good load out of my last 6.5 Tikka at 41g of H4350. I was using Lapua brass and 130 Berger HLVD.

Any willing test subjects for the HVLD?

ttha_aggie_09 said:

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I mean, that's pretty good but my Bergara shoots 7 in the same hole



/mfbarnes

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Great thread OP!!!
Useful stuff!!!
The OB maybe turning around!!!
Thanks!!!

Great initial load. I would suggest full length sizing with a shoulder bump over neck sizing though. I bet you shrink that group some (not that it really needs it).

Neck sizing only has some inherent issues IMO that are processed out with full length sizing. I am also a fan of turning necks to a uniform diameter.

This was actually with the Berger 130 Hybrid. Please excuse the length noted as I was testing seating depths to the o-give. These were 5 at 100.

There are def 2 (or more) camps on neck size vs FL.

I've found the Lee Collet to produce really, really straight ammo. Runout is super low. And not having to mess with case lube is pretty darn convenient.

I've run FL dies in the past, but currently kicking those to the side in favor of using fire formed brass and the Lee neck sizers. I only shoot reloaded brass in the gun where it was 1x fired.

LiveOak said:

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There are def 2 (or more) camps on neck size vs FL.

I've found the Lee Collet to produce really, really straight ammo. Runout is super low. And not having to mess with case lube is pretty darn convenient.

I've run FL dies in the past, but currently kicking those to the side in favor of using fire formed brass and the Lee neck sizers. I only shoot reloaded brass in the gun where it was 1x fired.

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Definitely more than 2 camps! Reloaders are a weird lot for the most part, everybody has quirks and beliefs on what is right or wrong, etc.

I FL resize and then run through a Lee collet to takeaway run-out. Neck sizing only looks great on paper, but you are assuming you have a perfect chamber if you do that, and since no chamber is perfect, you are opening up for errors in concentricity. Granted, for the vast majority of shooters and situations it makes no difference at all, but I figure since I'm already sizing and forming, and since with rifles I only do a handful of cases at a time anyway, the extra step isn't a big deal and it produces as close as I can get to uniform repeatable ammo.

That's also why I personally opt to neck turn - the first few times I did it I was shocked at how much variation there is in brass wall thickness.

Both processes exceed my capabilities and my equipment capabilities, I fully admit that.

So let me pose this question:

Quote:

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Neck sizing only looks great on paper, but you are assuming you have a perfect chamber if you do that, and since no chamber is perfect, you are opening up for errors in concentricity.

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Since I'm reproducing the chamber dimensions by shooting fire formed brass into the same chamber, I'm reproducing the chamber footprint. Wouldnt this be eliminating the need for a perfect chamber since my brass now reproduces the footprint, eliminating slop?

LiveOak said:

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So let me pose this question:

Quote:

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Neck sizing only looks great on paper, but you are assuming you have a perfect chamber if you do that, and since no chamber is perfect, you are opening up for errors in concentricity.

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Since I'm reproducing the chamber dimensions by shooting fire formed brass into the same chamber, I'm reproducing the chamber footprint. Wouldnt this be eliminating the need for a perfect chamber since my brass now reproduces the footprint, eliminating slop?

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No, unless you can guarantee that your brass is entering the chamber in the same radial position each and every time (you can't). Or unless you can guarantee that your chamber is 100% perfectly concentric (it isn't).

Since you can't guarantee either, you aren't truly reproducing the same conditions shot to shot with neck sizing only. Because say you have an error in concentricity at the 0 degree mark when looking at your chamber from the breech. You fire the brass, it forms with that error in concentricity now formed in that brass. But the next time you use that brass, that error isn't at the 0 degree mark, it's at the 90 degree mark. Now you have a situation where your brass isn't truly concentric with your chamber, and your projectile isn't truly concentric with the central axis of your bore. And the next time that error in brass is now at the 192 degree mark, so you have a new variable in the mix.

Errors are going to happen, you can't prevent them. The key is to try to make everything as uniform as possible so that even if you have a tolerance issue, it is a predictable and repeatable tolerance issue. That's the goal.

How much difference will any of this make in your groups? Odds are nothing appreciable. But if the goal is to get as accurate as you can, then you want to be as uniform as you can, and neck sizing only doesn't produce that. At least in my opinion, which is worth exactly what you just paid for it.

Also, after about 3 firings with neck size only brass, you are going to have to full length resize anyway as most chamberings will start to get sticky on feeding and ejection. So you are going to start over from scratch (as it were) every 3rd or so round as it is, might as well just incorporate that component into the production mix in my opinion to eliminate yet another variable or potential "oh crap" moment when you need a follow up shot and your bolt is hard as hell to open.

schmellba99 said:

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No, unless you can guarantee that your brass is entering the chamber in the same radial position each and every time (you can't).

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benchrest guys do this (or used to back in the day)

let's see a picture of your last sub-half-moa 7-shot group

Good points. Thanks for explaining.

NRD09 said:

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schmellba99 said:

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No, unless you can guarantee that your brass is entering the chamber in the same radial position each and every time (you can't).

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benchrest guys do this (or used to back in the day)

let's see a picture of your last sub-half-moa 7-shot group

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I don't have one, but I also don't shoot benchrest either. Reloaders are a weird lot. Benchrest guys are beyond the foul line in terms of quirkiness and make baseball players look downright normal with superstition and what not, I can't hang with those dudes. Both on a OCD level and on a spend money on guns level.

I am no expert, but I always FL size. I primarily do it for extraction purposes. It hasn't seemed to hurt my accuracy much either.

jpistolero02 said:

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I am no expert, but I always FL size. I primarily do it for extraction purposes. It hasn't seemed to hurt my accuracy much either.

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I used to get really into the reloading and spent a lot of time on various forums. Can't remember which one it was now (TFL maybe?) but there were a few guys that really got into the details on reloading there. I've been rolling my own for something like 20 years now, but they make me feel like an absolute beginner and amateur because they get so far into the details it is absolutely mind boggling.

Anyhow, they both cited and did a lot of research on neck sizing only versus FL resizing and everything that was presented showed either no appreciable difference in accuracy or a small improvement in accuracy with FL resizing.

One variable that kind of suprised me is primer pockets - super clean primer pockets actually decreased accuracy. Not by much, but some. I don't get anal over primer pockets anymore either - however they come out of the tumbler is how they get loaded anymore.

Yep. I haven't touched a primer pocket brush in years.

For that matter, I haven't touched much barrel cleaning equipment in a long time. But I'll leave the "how often to clean my barrel" discussion for the off season when we are sad and bored.

Very common to add a witness mark at 12 o'clock on the case head when neck sizing only.

This is the method I recommend.

So let me ask you Lee guys this...

I've gone to a Lee Collet, almost exclusively, from Redding Neck Sizer (expanding mandrel, not bushing) in tandem with a Redding Body Die.

All of my dies are adjusted to where I get the 4 faint marks on the necks, but the force required to seat the bullets feels awfully light on some of them. What does your seating force feel like with Lee Collet dies? Do I need to size them a bit more?

Same here on primer pockets. I know some people don't like wet tumbling, but that is my preferred method of brass cleaning.

Have you tried turning the die down more?

I ignore the instructions from Lee, and instead do this:

Raise ram to top of stroke with shell holder. Screw collet die into press until it touched shell holder.

Raise brass into die. You'll feel no resistance.

Start screwing die into press 1/8 turn at a time.
Once I feel it start to give me some resistance, I start measuring neck OD. After every 1/8 turn, I measure neck OD. At some point, anouther 1/8 turn into the press will not result in any change to the neck.

I back out 1/8 and go to sizing.

You may want to call Lee and order a smaller mandrel. They offer one that's been reduced in size to produce more neck tension on the bullet. $5 from Lee I believe.

Edit to note that I'm not bullet seating with Lee dies. Using Hornady custom.

LiveOak said:

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For that matter, I haven't touched much barrel cleaning equipment in a long time. But I'll leave the "how often to clean my barrel" discussion for the off season when we are sad and bored.

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I still clean regularly, but I rarely (if ever) run a bore brush down. Patches only until powder residue is gone.

Prior to the season I fire a few fouling rounds to check zero, then don't clean until after the season barring something like dropping it in the mud or what not. Every barrel needs some form of fouling to get to the sweet spot. Scrubbing it all out is counter productive.

CactusThomas said:

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Very common to add a witness mark at 12 o'clock on the case head when neck sizing only.

This is the method I recommend.

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You can do this, but you have no actual way of knowing if that case enters the chamber in exactly the same orientation round to round. You can get close, and odds are it is plenty good. But it's not 100% repeatable - at best it's a guess.

It still doesn't eliminate the need to FL resize periodically when the brass won't freely go into battery or when it won't come out freely.

LiveOak said:

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Have you tried turning the die down more?

I ignore the instructions from Lee, and instead do this:

Raise ram to top of stroke with shell holder. Screw collet die into press until it touched shell holder.

Raise brass into die. You'll feel no resistance.

Start screwing die into press 1/8 turn at a time.
Once I feel it start to give me some resistance, I start measuring neck OD. After every 1/8 turn, I measure neck OD. At some point, anouther 1/8 turn into the press will not result in any change to the neck.

I back out 1/8 and go to sizing.

You may want to call Lee and order a smaller mandrel. They offer one that's been reduced in size to produce more neck tension on the bullet. $5 from Lee I believe.

Edit to note that I'm not bullet seating with Lee dies. Using Hornady custom.

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Yeah, not seating with them either, but any die feels light.

I've done that. I was a little nervous about crushing the shoulder. I think I may need to screw it down a touch more.

Thanks.

on all but one of my collet dies I've had to order undersize mandrels (I think the 22-250 gave good tension out of the box?). The 280 ones I could pull the bullets out by hand. You can sand them down too but it's like $7 to order them. It really doesn't take a lot of pressure on my RC2, put calipers on them before and after to verify that they are getting sized fully. I also hit it once then turn the brass a quarter turn or so and hit it again.

AggiePetro07 said:

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So let me ask you Lee guys this...

I've gone to a Lee Collet, almost exclusively, from Redding Neck Sizer (expanding mandrel, not bushing) in tandem with a Redding Body Die.

All of my dies are adjusted to where I get the 4 faint marks on the necks, but the force required to seat the bullets feels awfully light on some of them. What does your seating force feel like with Lee Collet dies? Do I need to size them a bit more?

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I still use regular bushing sizing dies, but i take the time to polish the expander ball some when I first get a die. This smooths out the machined surface on the ball and actually reduces the OD by a very, very small amount. Makes sizing easier. Then run through a collet die to take runout out of the equation. That leaves me with the right amount of tension I personally like when seating - I can feel it, but it's not excessive so I'm not deforming the copper jacket to any appreciable degree.

I follow up with a every so slight crimp from a FCD, simply because I've always done it and I like that last step to get a good uniform hoop tension on the projectile. Some folks think the FCD is useless, I personally prefer it.

It's a few extra steps, but like I mentioned earlier - odds are I'm not loading more than 20-25 rounds like this in any one setting so I don't wear myself out on minute details. If I were doing something at a higher volume, I'd definitely change my habits.

AggiePetro07 said:

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LiveOak said:

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Have you tried turning the die down more?

I ignore the instructions from Lee, and instead do this:

Raise ram to top of stroke with shell holder. Screw collet die into press until it touched shell holder.

Raise brass into die. You'll feel no resistance.

Start screwing die into press 1/8 turn at a time.
Once I feel it start to give me some resistance, I start measuring neck OD. After every 1/8 turn, I measure neck OD. At some point, anouther 1/8 turn into the press will not result in any change to the neck.

I back out 1/8 and go to sizing.

You may want to call Lee and order a smaller mandrel. They offer one that's been reduced in size to produce more neck tension on the bullet. $5 from Lee I believe.

Edit to note that I'm not bullet seating with Lee dies. Using Hornady custom.

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Yeah, not seating with them either, but any die feels light.

I've done that. I was a little nervous about crushing the shoulder. I think I may need to screw it down a touch more.

Thanks.

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Find some older brass and crap projos to practice on, that way you aren't sacrificing anything useful. Because odds are you'll go a bit too far at some point - on a dummy round with old or garbage brass and a cheap projo, no biggie.