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Thermal Scope Reccos

6,177 Views | 34 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by RGRAg1/75
JeremiahJohnson
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Hey guys I am looking at pulling the trigger on a thermal in the next week or 2. I have played with a Trijicon MKiii 60mm and it was simply amazing. At $9,000 I under stand why. I am curious if any of you have any experience in this area. The new ATN Thor4 has come out and it has legit stats of 3000 yard recognition, which appeals to me and also the $4800 price point. I know in thermal you get what you pay for, but is this a player?

I am planning on using it mostly for glassing wildlife at long range. I have found a friends thermal very advantageous over a spotting scope for finding animals bow hunting. I also will mount it on an AR for predator and pigs.

https://www.atncorp.com/thermal-scope-thor-4-640-4-40x
BCStalk
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Where are you located?
JeremiahJohnson
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BCStalk said:

Where are you located?
Houston
Tx-Ag2010
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I bought a Trijicon REAP-IR from skelso a few months back and that is the most fun I've had with a new gun/toy EVER. It is scary how clear it is. Definitely glad I spent the extra coin.

I haven't seen the THOR so can't really speak to a comparison.
highvelocity
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Pulsar 50 XP trail here. Love it. Would recommend it 1000%
JeremiahJohnson
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What kind of detection range are you getting out of it? I am looking for the furthest possible heat locators
SMM48
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Buddy just bought an armasight.....will have to ask which model

http://www.armasight.com/
highvelocity
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1000+ meters. works really well for my applications i use it for
skelso
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I not only sell thermal, but spend a lot of time behind the eyepiece, unlike most of your box store sales people. Here are my thoughts on order of preference, top to bottom.

Trijicon - currently best scope on civilian market. Most expensive. 12 micron BAE core

Pulsar - Best customer service in industry. Supply chain issues which sometimes make for long lead times. Most bang for the buck. Known POI shift with trail units. Low mag lens on XP line (640 core) which defeats the enhancement of the 640 unless you stay on base mag. 17 micron Euliss core.

FLIR - buy the new FLIR products, not the Armasight branded products. Mid price range. Customer service is hit or miss. 17 micron proprietary core.

ATN - typically least expensive, does offer some higher cost models. Horrible customer service. Rushes product release and let's customers sort out problems through software updates. There are 2 solid camps of ATN owners, those who have never had a problem and love them and those who have had repeated problems. There are a few folks in between the two camps, but most fit one or the other.

There is a lot of misinformation on-line about thermal and the manufacturers have madenit worse in recent years by letting any one andbtheir brother become "dealers" or "pro-staff". Many of these so called dealers have only ever used one particular scope but will spout off information as if they are a product engineer.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to shoot me an email (shawn@kelsoarms.com) and I'll answer them the best I can.

reddog90
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We run a Reap IR and Trail XQ38. I wish I could get reap clarity with trail features. Shawn is that what you get in the XP line? What is the known POI shift you mentioned? Haven't experienced that yet.
Samuel E. Cronkowitz
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Recently bought a Pulsar Trail XQ38. Highly recommend.
RFD
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reddog90 said:

We run a Reap IR and Trail XQ38. I wish I could get reap clarity with trail features. Shawn is that what you get in the XP line? What is the known POI shift you mentioned? Haven't experienced that yet.

Looks like poi shift is caused by changing temps.

Just google it you will get lots of examples.

From another forum earlier this year:

After some testing this weekend I am seeing a 2.5" horizontal and 3.5" vertical shift from out of the house temp to 35 minutes in the freezer so I called Pulsar today and I feel got a pretty much no bs straight up answer. The guy said no one at Pulsar is denying that there is a temp related issue but there is no fix yet period. He said they feel it is a thermal expansion and contraction problem and not a core issue since the apex model is not having any poi shift. He said they are currently working on a firmware update to fix it and probably not gonna do you any good to ship the scope in at this time. I called him out on the fact that he first said it was going to be corrected with a firmware up date but later said it was related to the screen or something physically moving in the unit causing the shift. His answer was about algorithms etc and the scope reticle self adjusting for temp changes which is a bit out of my league so I guess we will see. If new firmware comes out I guess it will be sent out and we will have it. I just created two zeroes, one for 25 ish degrees and one for 45 ish degrees to get me by until March 15.
JeremiahJohnson
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Thanks for the reply. Email sent
skelso
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reddog90 said:

We run a Reap IR and Trail XQ38. I wish I could get reap clarity with trail features. Shawn is that what you get in the XP line? What is the known POI shift you mentioned? Haven't experienced that yet.
Clarity: yes and no... The XP line utilizes a 640 core vs a 384 core so you do gain some clarity from the increased resolution. However, the reason I don't like the XP line is they did not use the same lenses as the XQ line. Instead they went with lower magnification lenses. So you will get a crisp image at base mag, but it will be much more "zoomed out" than your REAP. Zoom on thermal scopes is all digital, just like zooming in on your cell phone. The math is a little more complex but when you zoom 2X, you are effectively cutting the sensor resolution roughly in half. Resulting in a lower resolution image than the XQ line when zoomed in to equal magnification.

There are some differences in algorithms between Trijicon and Pulsar as well so even with equal lenses, I don't think you would get equal clarity.

POI shift: It is mostly caused by temp swings. Not all scopes are affected and from the ones I have witnessed personally, it's not always the scope. I have corrected several that were due to improper mounting, etc. But once the user had an issue they were quick to jump on the POI shift bandwaggon.
AggieGunslinger
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Is the POI shift consistent, i.e. always high and left or is it different each time?
skelso
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The scopes I have personally seen with the issue were inconsistent as not only did POI shift, the size of the group degraded as well.
texrover91
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Hunted with an Apex and 2 Trails (one was a 38, the other a 50, and need to confirm XP vs XQ)

Amazing stuff - I'm in the market now. I used the Apex primarily and didn't have any major complaints. Good images at our distances of about 300 maybe a little further.

Thinking of starting with a monocular myself but the QD on the Trail allowed one of the guys to detach - scan - remount and shoot with accuracy.

Fun stuff
skelso
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The advantage to a monocular over scope w/QD is FOV (unless you go XP). I run the Apex XQ50s on my personal guns. Definately run the external battery pack.
texrover91
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What monocular do you like?

Initially my thought was split the cost of the Trail and go with a monocular and an Apex -

I've got two ATN x-sights so I could buy the monocular and have the ATN's on buddy-guns and an apex for myself

So right now I'm leaning Apex xq50 and a helion

skelso
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I was running a Quantum XD38 monocular until a couple weeks ago. It was good enough resolution to make an educated guess what I was looking at, then use my Apex XQ50 for target definition.

I sold the XD38 to update to a helion, only because I wanted a helion for demo purposes. Had I not cared about on board record, etc I would have gone with a Quantum lite for the replacement because it's cheaper.

Leroyjenkins
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Skelso, suggestion for best Flir product for under $3,000? Max shooting distance 200 yards, 5.56/.308/.300blk.

Big thanks for all of the content you've put out here.
JeremiahJohnson
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Leroyjenkins said:

Skelso, suggestion for best Flir product for under $3,000? Max shooting distance 200 yards, 5.56/.308/.300blk.

Big thanks for all of the content you've put out here.
Why Flir? They seem elevated in price. I assume after talking with him about thermals he will recommend the Pulsar. See Above. In that price range the Pulsar trail or Apex would be a great option.

I ended up getting the Trijicon Reap-IR. While not in that price range it is simply amazing. If I didn't go for the Trijicon, I was headed to pulsar.
texrover91
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Skelso can hook you up, knows way more than me, but...

I can't really name a Trijicon thermal product at / under $3k (?). Maybe a monocular; the Breach is nice but limited to 500yds (per spec, haven't tested it)

For $3k your best best (from my limited experience) is an Apex. You could go up to an XQ50 at that $ point, and add external battery and maybe a DVR too if not a little over. You also want to factor in a QD mount, so max spend of about $250 there although some vendors throw the DLOC in with purchase. Apex only has two mount options that I'm aware of

I've used / compared Trijicon (Reap IR and Mk) and I do think you get one of the best images out there. But price wise you are paying a hefty premium for about 10% better image and not gaining anything for resultion cmpared to say a Trail XP50. The Trijicon is also fixed focus; some will like that and some won't. I'd lean towards fixed focus but I also haven't had a situation where adjustable cost me a shot on a pig.

Personally I think two Apex XQ50 or one XQ50 and a monocular (Helion XP38) is a better choice than one Trail XP50. Trail has more bells and whistles but that's subjective. But I don't care for the WIFI and recording. if they made an Apex XP or made WIFI and video a downloadable option that would be perfect.

Trail XP50 gives better resolution at base magnification and a better image than my Apex XQ50, but the XQ50 is still the best "deal" if you are shopping on a budget.

I added a Trail XP50 instead of a second Apex b/c of my wife to be honest - she like it more than the Apex. But I don't see enough difference for the money myself, and we wanted two thermals so adding the Trail XP was the choice.

DDSO
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skelso
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Sorry bud, I just saw this. Let me look at the updated FLIR price list tonight and I'll shot you some options.

Is there a specific reason you want FLIR? Any specific features you want, on board record, etc.
reddog90
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RFD said:



LI just created two zeroes, one for 25 ish degrees and one for 45 ish degrees to get me by until March 15.
See below:
reddog90
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skelso said:

The scopes I have personally seen with the issue were inconsistent as not only did POI shift, the size of the group degraded as well.
These two don't match up. And RDF how are you creating a 25* and 45* zero in August? Stick it in the freezer till you think the internals are at the right temp, then quickly go zero it outside?
Leroyjenkins
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Let me back up and restate my question. Not partial to FLIR.

What would be best option for $3,000 or under.

Top priority is clarity, accuracy, battery life?, functionality for 200-250 yards and in. Hunting East Texas....

No need for recording, wifi or any other fancy feature.

Looking for a workhorse.
skelso
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Haven't forgotten about you. Have been dealing with aftermath of hand injury from the weekend. Will try to get you a thorough answer tonight.
Leroyjenkins
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Skelso... waiting for your reply is like having a pretty good idea what your getting for Christmas but having to wait to know for sure.

I hope you are making a speedy recovery.

My eyes are locked on the Trail XQ50 until I get educated.
skelso
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Sorry, I thought I already replied. My brain is a bit scrambled... This past week has been one for the books, my injury being the least of it... Give me a bit to get to my computer and Ill post some options.
skelso
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I have a PDF that lists all the different models, specs, and MAP pricing on each but can't seem to figure out how to post it here. If you would like to see it, shoot me an e-mail (shawn@kelsoarms.com) and I'll email it to you.

This is going to be long because I think the best way to attack you question is in pieces. The TL/DR version is I recommend APEX XQ50 with an external battery pack and QD mount or a TRAIl XQ50 w/ QD mount if you want a more sleek unit and can up your budget.

1) The Trail XQ50 is a great scope but outside your $3K budget you listed. the TRAIL XQ38 is within your budget but I personally would go with higher optical magnification over gadgetry. so I would go APEX XQ50 over TRAIl XQ38.

2) Since you originally asked about FLIR, I would stay away from the Armasight by FLIR products. Several here have purchased them after being advised not to and can chime in with their less than stellar experiences. The newer FLIR Thermosight line is decent. In my opinion the 12 micron core is overshadowed by the 320 X 256 core. Yes you will get smooth rendered edges on close targets but at long distance an animal the size of a pig or deer is going to be difficult to positive ID because of how few pixels it represents. The other issue I have is the PTS233 is a 1.5X optical magnification which is too low for good target definition and the PTS536, which is above your budget, is 4X optical which is great for long distances but FOV will suffer inside 100 - 150 yards.

3) Yes, as others have mentioned, I am partial to Pulsar. They are the brand I run on my own rifles. They are not the best scope on the market, but give the best bang for your buck. What you really have to decide is do you care about onboard recording and are you bothered by external cables. If the answer to both is no, look at the APEX line. If the answer to either is yes, look at the TRAIL line. The APEX is what I run, I refer to it as the "Hunter's" scope. It is great for detecting, identifying, and shooting targets. It has the ability to add on the bells and whistles aftermarket but there will be wires to connect them. The TRAIL is what I refer to as the "gadget geek" scope. It has all the bells and whistles built in but they come at a cost. I DO NOT LIKE NOR RECOMMEND THE TRAIL XP LINE! In my opinion, Pulsar pulled off a marketing genius move and the consumers bought it hook line and sinker, as evidenced by the months long back orders that are just being cleared. Consumers said "Man, we like Pulsar but really want a 640 core". Pulsar answered with a 640 core offering but staying true to their budget roots, they put a low magnification lens on it. They convinced people this was to give better FOV. The trade off is identification range. I won't bore you with the math but will tell you that a TRAIL XP50 zoomed in to an equal magnification as the TRAIL XQ50 at base magnification will have a lesser quality picture. It has to do with the fact that thermal scopes use digital magnification (like zooming in your cell phone) vs optical magnification (live zooming a traditional glass scope).

4) I am not a fan of ATN as a company. I will sell their products to someone who is dead set on them because if they are determined to buy them from someone it might as well be me... I never recommend them and often try to talk people out of them. There are plenty out there that have had no issue with their scope but read the horror stories from the folks who have had issues and it will make you think twice.

Hope this helps. Don't hesitate to reach out if you have follow up questions. Sorry again for the delay!
skelso
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reddog90 said:

skelso said:

The scopes I have personally seen with the issue were inconsistent as not only did POI shift, the size of the group degraded as well.
These two don't match up. And RDF how are you creating a 25* and 45* zero in August? Stick it in the freezer till you think the internals are at the right temp, then quickly go zero it outside?
Not sure I understand what you mean by "don't match up". You can have POI shift but still shoot a tight group. The TRAIL scopes I have personally seen with POI shift, the size of the groups also went to crap. In a few cases it was improperly torqued mount. I have seen 1 that I could not figure out and had to send back. Pulsar never explained what they found as the cause. they just replaced the scope. So I can't say for sure it was temp induced. Could have been something loose inside the scope.
RGRAg1/75
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Anything you can tell me about Night Optics? Reviews seem decent. Specifically this one:

https://www.opticsplanet.com/night-optics-6x-long-range-640x480-thermal-riflescope.html

If you can compare to your Pulsar knowledge, that'd be great. Thx.
skelso
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Sorry, I don't have any first hand real world experience with their scopes.
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