Sunday afternoon the wife and I decide to take the kids downtown here in San Antonio. The city is celebrating its 300th birthday this year and New Year's Eve was sort of the kick off to the event. Lots of concerts, rides, shows, vendors, etc.

We decide to use the Park and Ride so as not to have to mess with traffic and parking. We get dropped off at the Alamodome and walk to Hemisfair Park for the festivities. Have I mentioned yet how GD cold it was? We get to one of the entrances to the park and I'll be damned if they're not checking bags and wanding everyone that goes in. They've got signs on the fence listing prohibited items such as glass bottles, umbrellas, etc. and of course weapons. My blood pressure starts to rise as I realize the rigmarole that we've just gone through to get here with an 8 and 5 year old and now I'm faced with this.

Fortunately, there are cops everywhere so I pull one aside and explain the situation. I ask him if they've got a substation lock-up or anything similar nearby that I might be able to store my weapon in. He starts making a few calls. Meanwhile, I ask to speak to a supervisor working the security. I start explaining the situation to him including the fact that this event has been advertised heavily and not once did I see any sort of notice indicating that weapons wouldn't be allowed. Again, this is literally outdoors in downtown San Antonio. This gentleman was nonplussed to say the least which kind of pissed me off. So then I point out to him that the signage they've got hung up is not legal and therefore not binding. As I've been talking to him, two other cops have gathered around and both of them begin nodding in agreement with me as I point this out to the security guy. So then HE tells me that he's going to make some calls and excuses himself. At this point the "new" cops approach me and tell me that they are calling anyone they can to find a way to help me out, they really appreciate LTC holders, and think that what's happening to me is BS. After about 5 minutes the cops reluctantly tell me that they can't find a spot for me to keep my weapon but suggest that I try to find an access point that isn't restricted (yes he actually told me that!!) and just enter the event. Of course, they've got the place locked down tighter than a drum and short of climbing a fence, I'm not getting in without getting wanded.

Now for the part that REALLY pissed me off. After about another 10 minutes, the security supervisor suddenly shows back up after disappearing, looks at me with a **** eating grin, and begins zip tying a 51% sign to the fence. I walked over to him and told him that that was the most chicken**** move I've seen in a long time. One of cops very vocally says "YUP!". The end. My family goes into the event and I basically walk around the Riverwalk and Alamo for 4 hours freezing my ass off waiting for my family to do their thing.

You should've forced their hand before he posted that sign. Just told them it's not legalally binding and if they wanna arrest you there's plenty of cops to do so but you're going in.

And those cops should've said to them that there's nothing anyone could do to stop you.

That sucks. My disdain for mass humanity is likely the reason I'll never be in that situation. State Fair? Nope. Six Flags? Nope. Mardi Gras? Nope. Any concert? Nope.

Ag_07 said:

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You should've forced their hand before he posted that sign. Just told them it's not legalally binding and if they wanna arrest you there's plenty of cops to do so but you're going in.

And those cops should've said to them that there's nothing anyone could do to stop you.

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Yup. In hindsight that's what I've come up with too. Asking the cops if I'd get arrested for walking through the gate was the smart move. In the moment however, that didn't occur to me....I was too pissed off.

Yeah that's why I didn't say I would've because I probably would've done the same as you.

But looking back you could've probably told those cops that you weren't planning on causing a scene but it's your right to walk in with your weapon and that's what you planned on doing.

You weren't a feel about it though and good on ya for letting your family stay. That's one thing I probably wouldn't have done. We'd all be on our way home ASAP.

The 51% sign is such bull*****

Why the Fook would you go down to watch pat benetar and reo speed wagon

Have no pity for you as that was truly the mis justice

The 51% sign is bullcrap, sounds like they also had the 30.06 sign incorrect....

However....

Once the security guy verbally told you "no", doesn't that serve as your legal notice?

It was nice the cops were on your side, but the security guy was speaking for the organizers.

MookieBlaylock said:

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Why the Fook would you go down to watch pat benetar and reo speed wagon

Have no pity for you as that was truly the mis justice

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C'mon man, gimme some credit. I stood outside and saw Little Joe and Flaco!!!

Seems a security supervisor or someone of authority telling you "no" would suffice as notice that proceeding would be trespass by license holder. Glad the cops were helpful, but if the event is private and managed by security, it's their rules.

AgGunNut said:

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Seems a security supervisor or someone of authority telling you "no" would suffice as notice that proceeding would be trespass by license holder. Glad the cops were helpful, but if the event is private and managed by security, it's their rules.

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But 30.06 signage or verbal notice forbidding concealed carry by a licensee have no force of law on public property. Hemisfair Park is owned by a governmental entity. AG released several opinions last year affirming this and noted that while a private entity renting governmental property isn't responsible for fines related to the unenforceable signage, the signage also doesn't prohibit a licensee from carrying on that property.

OP - you need to learn the art of avoiding the wand. 1) wear boots. 2) put gun in boots. 3) create diversion at belt with a pen, coin, or belt buckle. 99% of private security that runs wands doesn't wand below the knees. You'll beep at your waist, they'll see your diversion, and send you on your way. I've never failed getting past illegally posted properties with "security" going this route.

Your post just made this entire thread. That is some seriously good strategery right there.

Now I know why guys got pissed when I worked security. Boots always got my attention. I just assumed crap was hidden in then. Honestly didn't realize it was that uncommon to check.

Seems like the jack@ss's 51% sign put the nail in the coffin then under 46.035, regardless of the ownership (according to the AG opinion). Whether the 51% sign was warranted...that's a good question.

As for that specific park, I'm not from there, so didn't know it was city/county property.

Also brings to question standard practices for events like concerts held in college facilities (Reed, etc) by private entities. You could technically carry there under the authority of your LTC as long as a school sporting event wasn't taking place, or it wasn't deemed to be 30.06 like some of the sensitive areas.

Nothwithstanding a specific Federal statute that I don't know off the top of my head, would there be authority to enact this when a past president visits for an event? As a peace officer (not working the event) I was made to disarm before being allowed in for the Hurricane Harvey event. I knew the security measures in place, so didn't worry about it for the few hours I was there, but interesting possibilities nonetheless.

AgGunNut said:

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Seems like the jack@ss's 51% sign put the nail in the coffin then under 46.035, regardless of the ownership (according to the AG opinion). Whether the 51% was sign was warranted...that's a good question.

As for that specific park, I'm not from there, so didn't know it was city/county property.

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You're right on the 51% issue. Lots of city owned properties are starting to exploit 51% as a loophole. TABC grants a temporary liquor license for a vendor who gets all of their sales from alcohol. That vendor lists the premises of the event on their liquor license thus making city property off limits. The question is what does the liquor license state. TABC has a handy app that lets you check the liquor license status from your phone. If the TABC app indicated a blue sign, I'd probably press the issue. I'd also take a picture and report it to TABC. I've had several incorrect 51% signs taken down by sending a picture and email to TABC. If the app said they should have a 51%, I'd likely do as the OP.

That "park" is owned by the city and managed by a 501(c) corp created by the city. I hope the 2019 legislative session fixes the 51% law and the "loop hole" cities/counties have regarding leasing public properties to not for profits which allows the not for profit to post 30.06 signs with no repercussions. I suspect most LTC holders aren't up to date on the current laws and AG opinions regarding carry on public owned property and would be deterred like the OP.

AgGunNut said:

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Also brings to question standard practices for events like concerts held in college facilities (Reed, etc) by private entities. You could technically carry there under the authority of your LTC as long as a school sporting event wasn't taking place, or it wasn't deemed to be 30.06 like some of the sensitive areas.

Nothwithstanding a specific Federal statue that I don't know off the top of my head, would there be authority to enact this when a past president visits for an event? As a peace officer (not working the event) I was made to disarm before being allowed in for the Hurricane Harvey event. I knew the security measures in place, so didn't worry about it for the few hours I was there, but interested possibilities nonetheless.

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The state allows colleges and universities to create special event "zones" where carrying can be prohibited with sufficient notice. That's what they did at Reed for the Harvey event. They gave plenty of advance notice. I heard UT was planning on making the entire campus 30.06 during finals.

I found the security at Reed interesting. Like you, I wasn't worried about carrying. There was enough of a security presence (not just security theater) outside and inside the venue. I didn't beep when going through the magnetometer. I had on my holster but had disarmed. Secret Service wanded my waist, felt behind my belt buckle, and sent me on my way. I expected a sweep of my boots. Last time I went through a Secret Service security line, I had to take my shoes off.

FYI - the law has changed regarding carry at collegiate sporting events. Carry isn't banned by statute anymore. The college/university has to post legal 30.06 signage to ban carry at sporting events. It would still be banned for a HS/MS sporting event at a university owned facility.

ursusguy said:

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Now I know why guys got pissed when I worked security. Boots always got my attention. I just assumed crap was hidden in then. Honestly didn't realize it was that uncommon to check.

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You're smarter than the average private security person who is making minimum wage and going through the motions. Look at the Houston rodeo the last two years. Huge security theater. Big 30.06/07 signs with magnetometers and security wanding. Yet last year, several urban youth brought their guns inside, started a fight, and then started shooting. That's why I don't feel bad carrying past unenforceable 30.06 signs with "security". That's security theater for the general public

Try working the inauguration detail. That was a whole other level of security compared to the Harvey event. Without a uniform and credentials verifying that you were working that specific area, you had to go through Secret Service to even get into private buildings along the parade route. Business doesn't like it, tough mess. Secret Service set up shop and put fences up restricting access to the buildings from all the public area around them.

Deats said:

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The 51% sign is such bull*****

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The Texas State Aquarium in Corpus had these up the last time I was there.

Jason Ag said:

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Deats said:

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The 51% sign is such bull*****

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The Texas State Aquarium in Corpus had these up the last time I was there.

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How is that even enforceable?

I think it's a private entity.

That place is kewl but that their prices are a bit much.

AggiePetro07 said:

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Jason Ag said:

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Deats said:

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The 51% sign is such bull*****

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The Texas State Aquarium in Corpus had these up the last time I was there.

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How is that even enforceable?

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Do they even sell liquor in there? Would be really fun to film someone to go in there and try to order liquor from front desk and then cause a scene cuz you saw the 51% sign and need your alcohol fix.

IMO, places that's look for loopholes or try to be shady around what the states laws are deserve all of the ridicule people can give them for being jack wagons. They are the equivalent of my toddler throwing a temper tantrum over losing a toy to Mis behavior.

THe mall in Waco is another such place. None of their entrances have it posted outside, and none of the big stores have signage. Instead they have those moveable sign frames in the interior with 30.06 & 30.07. But I don't think these pass either as the signs are hard to read. They tried to make the sign "fit" their marketing scheme color pattern and the letters and background bleed together. My family and I had to make a trip into that hell hole last week and I was carrying, walked around Dillard's and then into the mall space so wife could to the lotion/soap store. I walked past the signs chasing the kids and didn't even notice until we went a sat down to wait for my wife to finish shopping I had a chance to get up close and read sign. We made our way back into the Dillard's side of the doorway to remain legal just in case.

txyaloo said:

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ursusguy said:

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Now I know why guys got pissed when I worked security. Boots always got my attention. I just assumed crap was hidden in then. Honestly didn't realize it was that uncommon to check.

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You're smarter than the average private security person who is making minimum wage and going through the motions. Look at the Houston rodeo the last two years. Huge security theater. Big 30.06/07 signs with magnetometers and security wanding. Yet last year, several urban youth brought their guns inside, started a fight, and then started shooting. That's why I don't feel bad carrying past unenforceable 30.06 signs with "security". That's security theater for the general public

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This so much. when i walk up on a venue that has decided no "weapons" and is wanding people, i have about an 80% success rate getting my pocket knife through by just holding it in my hand under my keys as i show what's in my pocket while i get wanded.

also as an aside, i have it on good authority that the steel toe of a boot will obscure a pocket knife from an airport x-ray scanner... so maybe it'll work for a wand too?

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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THe mall in Waco is another such place. None of their entrances have it posted outside, and none of the big stores have signage. Instead they have those moveable sign frames in the interior with 30.06 & 30.07. But I don't think these pass either as the signs are hard to read. They tried to make the sign "fit" their marketing scheme color pattern and the letters and background bleed together. My family and I had to make a trip into that hell hole last week and I was carrying, walked around Dillard's and then into the mall space so wife could to the lotion/soap store. I walked past the signs chasing the kids and didn't even notice until we went a sat down to wait for my wife to finish shopping I had a chance to get up close and read sign. We made our way back into the Dillard's side of the doorway to remain legal just in case.

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Which is why the law is written so that the sign is clear, visible, etc...... I know almost everyone reading this thread knows this, but I am going to "cut & paste" it anyway....

Quote:

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A "30.06 sign" must contain the following: 1) the proper statutory language (written above) in both English and Spanish; 2) words posted in block letters; 3) that are one-inch in height; 4) appearing in contrasting colors; and 5) the sign must be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

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I went over those with my wife as we were leaving... my thoughts are, Technically it meets those requirements, (although I haven't measured the letters, but I am assuming the property lawyers did if they already went to all those trouble) practically it does not... I fear practically probably loses in a court of law though.

Good thing the penalties are pretty much nill at this point

Out of curiosity i was looking into the requirements more. has there been any case law or legal opinions defining what "conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public" actually means? This one has always bothered me as being way too subjective.

I unknowingly carried at a wedding/reception one time that was a 51% establishment and had the signs up right in the entry way, but the wedding coordinator placed the large 24x36 bridal portrait directly in front so they were not visible until we were leaving after tear down had started. That incident has mad me very interested in this provision ever since.

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

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I went over those with my wife as we were leaving... my thoughts are, Technically it meets those requirements, (although I haven't measured the letters, but I am assuming the property lawyers did if they already went to all those trouble) practically it does not... I fear practically probably loses in a court of law though.

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It sounds like it fails more than one of the legal requirements.

An outside vendor rents the facility at night, and apparently has the whole property as their business. As such, they apparently have a legit TABC designation.....several forums have discussions about the State Aquarium.

They make a killing on special events.

txyaloo said:

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AgGunNut said:

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Seems a security supervisor or someone of authority telling you "no" would suffice as notice that proceeding would be trespass by license holder. Glad the cops were helpful, but if the event is private and managed by security, it's their rules.

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But 30.06 signage or verbal notice forbidding concealed carry by a licensee have no force of law on public property. Hemisfair Park is owned by a governmental entity. AG released several opinions last year affirming this and noted that while a private entity renting governmental property isn't responsible for fines related to the unenforceable signage, the signage also doesn't prohibit a licensee from carrying on that property.

OP - you need to learn the art of avoiding the wand. 1) wear boots. 2) put gun in boots. 3) create diversion at belt with a pen, coin, or belt buckle. 99% of private security that runs wands doesn't wand below the knees. You'll beep at your waist, they'll see your diversion, and send you on your way. I've never failed getting past illegally posted properties with "security" going this route.

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THIS! I do it all the time!

BlackGoldAg2011 said:

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txyaloo said:

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ursusguy said:

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Now I know why guys got pissed when I worked security. Boots always got my attention. I just assumed crap was hidden in then. Honestly didn't realize it was that uncommon to check.

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You're smarter than the average private security person who is making minimum wage and going through the motions. Look at the Houston rodeo the last two years. Huge security theater. Big 30.06/07 signs with magnetometers and security wanding. Yet last year, several urban youth brought their guns inside, started a fight, and then started shooting. That's why I don't feel bad carrying past unenforceable 30.06 signs with "security". That's security theater for the general public

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This so much. when i walk up on a venue that has decided no "weapons" and is wanding people, i have about an 80% success rate getting my pocket knife through by just holding it in my hand under my keys as i show what's in my pocket while i get wanded.

also as an aside, i have it on good authority that the steel toe of a boot will obscure a pocket knife from an airport x-ray scanner... so maybe it'll work for a wand too?

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The body scanners also have a terrible time scanning on the sides of people. You can conceal most anything along the outside of your legs up to your waist. Guy behind me several year ago at Logan made it through with a box cutter. I've noticed if I wear cargo pants, I always get a pat down, but if I wear jeans, it's no issue. Before I had pre-check, I would leave my belt on going through the scanner. Never had a problem or a second look by TSA. The scanners are mostly security theater.

Don't 3006/3007/51% only apply to premises aka the walls of the building? You can't post on gates to facilities and have it apply to the entire facility. You have to post at the door to the building. I'd think since this was an outdoor event, zipping a sign to a fence isn't a binding posting.

I'm open to being wrong about this.

phideaux_2003 said:

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Don't 3006/3007/51% only apply to premises aka the walls of the building? You can't post on gates to facilities and have it apply to the entire facility. You have to post at the door to the building. I'd think since this was an outdoor event, zipping a sign to a fence isn't a binding posting.

I'm open to being wrong about this.

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30.06 can apply to parking lots/open spaces. This is trespass by a license holder which is different than UCW (the 51% law) in that it doesn't define a premises and instead refers simply to "property".

51% (part of PC 46.035) only applies to the TABC licensed premises which is why it's BS that alcohol vendors brought in to public events can make the entire event off limits for carry. While the business may be required to post a 51% sign at their booth, the rest of the event, especially if it's on a public street, park, exterior space, should still be legal for carry.