Question for the all knowing outdoor board. I know this has been debated on here..but my wife went out to find someone going thru her vehicle at 5:45 this morning and immediately started yelling for me. He ran off before I could get outside. Not to note of missing, but he was clearly inside the vehicle.

The question is would it have been legal to shoot? it was dark (at night) and he was in the commission of a burglary. I most likely would not have, but would have been in my rights in Texas to do so?

Debated with co-workers and they all say no, Castle Doctrine trumps this and the vehicle must be occupied and you have to be in fear of your life.

What say you?

Texas Penal Code 9.42 ......"to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property".......

Your coworkers don't know what they're talking about.

But I wouldn't have shot at him if he was taking off regardless of legality, and I freaking hate thieves.

Not worth it even if it was deserved.....

You'd probably not have a problem shooting in that instance from a legal perspective. Ethically/morally, well, that's up to you.

*The above is not definitive to say that you would or would face consequences for shooting in that instance.*

Also, Castle Doctrine and Motorist Protection Act are not in play in the OP scenario.

The Wonderer said:

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Also, Castle Doctrine and Motorist Protection Act are not in play in the OP scenario.

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Which is why his coworkers have no idea what they're talking about.

BenderRodriguez said:

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The Wonderer said:

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Also, Castle Doctrine and Motorist Protection Act are not in play in the OP scenario.

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Which is why his coworkers have no idea what they're talking about.

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I see now that you tapped on that little nugget as well.

To see Penal Code 9.42 in play in real life, just read the below.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/jilted-john-acquitted-texas-prostitute-death-article-1.1365975

A Texas john who shot a Craigslist escort dead after she took $150 of his cash but refused to have sex has been cleared of murder.

Ezekiel Gilbert, 30, was facing life in jail for the 2009 Christmas Eve killing of Lenora Frago, 23, outside his San Antonio apartment.

Gilbert used a AK-47 assault rifle to spray his alleged victim's car with bullets as she was driven away at 4:15 a.m. by her alleged pimp, Christopher Perkins.

Frago was hit in the neck.

Left paralyzed and brain damaged from the shooting, she was hooked up to a respirator for several months until her family pulled the plug in July 2010.

A Bexar County Texas court jury on Thursday took 11 hours to acquit Gilbert saying his actions were justified because he was simply trying to retrieve stolen property.

This is because state residents are permitted "to use deadly force to recover property during a nighttime theft."

Gilbert's defense attorneys argued he did not intend to kill Frago and only wanted to blow out the car tires and get back his cash.

They also said the shooting was justified, as he thought sex was included as part of the fee.
Gilbert hugged his attorneys and thanked God, his lawyers, and the jury following his acquittal, reports My San Antonio.

"I sincerely regret the loss of the life of Ms. Frago," he said outside the court room.

"I've been in a mental prison the past four years of my life. I have nightmares. If I see guns on TV where people are getting killed, I change the channel," he added.

Damn....

OP, If you fired a weapon in your scenario, you'd better be ready to stand trial.

You'd be relying on the "theft during the night" portion of the law, the burglary that is referenced Is Burglary of a Habitation, a 2nd degree felony, not Burglary of a Vehicle, a Class A Misdemeanor.

Even if you have a conservative D.A., they might try this case (or a case like this) to keep a P.R. storm from hitting them from either side.

I'm in the middle of installing cameras at my house for this very reason. I won't ever shoot somebody for breaking into my vehicle, but at least I can go out and confront them well armed and it wouldn't be a surprise.

I was talking to a state trooper once who told me, "every bullet in my belt has a lawyer's name attached to it."

I would edit that to say "multiple lawyers." You've got the assistant DA looking to make a name for him/herself and potentially a plaintiff's lawyer IF you discharge your weapon and hit someone. It is going to cost you plenty to defend yourself in civil and/or criminal court.

I really don't know exactly what I'd do in that situation, and I'm sure not going to advise anyone on what to do there, but sitting here in front my computer, the only time I'm shooting someone is if my life or another life is in fairly imminent danger. If a jury were to find someone guilty of (whatever) for an action like what was referenced here, and the Court of Appeals or Court of Criminal Appeals were to eventually overturn the conviction, that someone would likely spend 3-5 years as a guest of the state only to have them say, "oh, sorry, you're free to go" IF the COA/CCA came through later.

You can spend whatever money you would spend on legal fees (after you shot someone) to get the property you got stolen back. Whatever you do, don't take legal advice from a non-lawyer seriously. It is bad enough taking it from a lawyer!

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

Meh......just shoot his nuts off

9.42 is the correct answer, but there is no way I am legally advising anyone on when they can kill somebody.

Josepi said:

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Damn....

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Yeah. If you can kill a fleeing hooker with an AK....

But I'm with the majority on this one. Not worth it. Hell I wouldn't even step out of the house and create the potential for a confrontation. Call the cops, curse thieves in general, don't leave irreplaceable stuff in cars parked outside at night.

always gig em said:

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"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

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You can say this all you want, but when someone is breaking into your car, and you interject deadly force by going out to confront them, a jury won't buy it.

BenderRodriguez said:

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Call the cops, curse thieves in general, don't leave irreplaceable stuff in cars parked outside at night.

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Amen. I am not shooting someone over property, even if somehow it was legal.

I worked a similar situation in my county, home owner caught a thief in her car and opened fire, the thief then fired back at the homeowner and ran off after the brief gun fight. Homeowner admitted to firing first even though she didn't see a gun. Homeowner was not arrested, but we found the thief about a quarter mile away (his butt went to jail). I advise not shooting anybody unless you don't have a choice legally justified or not, you still have to live with yourself.

Bender and Dubi hit it for me. Would've likely been a legal shoot but I decided a long time ago that "stuff" isn't worth me taking a life.

IDAGG said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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Call the cops, curse thieves in general, don't leave irreplaceable stuff in cars parked outside at night.

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Amen. I am not shooting someone over property, even if somehow it was legal.

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Ignoring the moral/legal arguments of shooting someone breaking into a car completely, it just makes no sense to confront someone.

If you see someone breaking into your car from your house, you have a very incomplete picture of the situation.

1) are they armed
2) do they have anyone else with them

It's typically going to be dark. If you leave your house to confront someone, you risk the possibility of them attacking you, having another person you haven't seen yet attacking you, etc....

You've left your family under defended in the house, left terrain you're familiar with, to confront an unknown number of possibly armed people over whatever you left in your car. I can find multiple links to stories of people who did exactly that and wound up bleeding out on their porch over it.

Call the cops, and stay armed inside the house to protect your family, because they are what need protecting, not the crap in your vehicle.

always gig em said:

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"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

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You may want to try and understand what the term "reasonable" means first, then try and figure out how it is even possible to be in "reasonable fear of [your] life" while confronting a thief who is running away from you.

TexAgs would be infinitely better off with fewer arm-chair lawyers.

BenderRodriguez said:

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IDAGG said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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Call the cops, curse thieves in general, don't leave irreplaceable stuff in cars parked outside at night.

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Amen. I am not shooting someone over property, even if somehow it was legal.

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Ignoring the moral/legal arguments of shooting someone breaking into a car completely, it just makes no sense to confront someone.

If you see someone breaking into your car from your house, you have a very incomplete picture of the situation.

1) are they armed
2) do they have anyone else with them

It's typically going to be dark. If you leave your house to confront someone, you risk the possibility of them attacking you, having another person you haven't seen yet attacking you, etc....

You've left your family under defended in the house, left terrain you're familiar with, to confront an unknown number of possibly armed people over whatever you left in your car. I can find multiple links to stories of people who did exactly that and wound up bleeding out on their porch over it.

Call the cops, and stay armed inside the house to protect your family, because they are what need protecting, not the crap in your vehicle.

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This needs all the blue stars! Whether you end up in prison or not should be the last thing you consider in this scenario, not the first.

American History X

IDAGG said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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Call the cops, curse thieves in general, don't leave irreplaceable stuff in cars parked outside at night.

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Amen. I am not shooting someone over property, even if somehow it was legal.

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My LTC instructor told us he would never shoot anyone over property or in the back. I'd have to agree with him.

always gig em said:

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"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

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Yeah, this guy did the same thing and got 40 years of free food and lodging out of the deal:

Quote:

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Rodriguez threatened to shoot Danaher. At this point, Rodriguez said very clearly into his video camera, "I'm in fear for my life; my life is in danger."

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Happened in Texas btw. I am not an attorney, but I am pretty sure the particular circumstances of the shooting trumps what you state, particularly if the facts contradict your statement.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/defense-murder-drove-man-kill-neighbor/story?id=17226874

91AggieLawyer said:

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I was talking to a state trooper once who told me, "every bullet in my belt has a lawyer's name attached to it."

I would edit that to say "multiple lawyers." You've got the assistant DA looking to make a name for him/herself and potentially a plaintiff's lawyer IF you discharge your weapon and hit someone. It is going to cost you plenty to defend yourself in civil and/or criminal court.

I really don't know exactly what I'd do in that situation, and I'm sure not going to advise anyone on what to do there, but sitting here in front my computer, the only time I'm shooting someone is if my life or another life is in fairly imminent danger. If a jury were to find someone guilty of (whatever) for an action like what was referenced here, and the Court of Appeals or Court of Criminal Appeals were to eventually overturn the conviction, that someone would likely spend 3-5 years as a guest of the state only to have them say, "oh, sorry, you're free to go" IF the COA/CCA came through later.

You can spend whatever money you would spend on legal fees (after you shot someone) to get the property you got stolen back. Whatever you do, don't take legal advice from a non-lawyer seriously. It is bad enough taking it from a lawyer!

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In bold is the key here! You're an attorney so you already prob know this, but getting a judgement over the State is next to impossible! City departments is a different story, That would be a n extremly dumb DA to pursue that given it was a justified shooting. Ok back on track now

Few years ago I had a burglar steal a laptop out of my truck, which was in my garage (garage door open.) When filing the police rept, the cop said if the vehicle is outside the garage you are taking chances legally by shooting. It is not worth the hassle. But if the vehicle is in the garage (across the threshold,) you can shoot-to-kill with no worry. Interestingly, he said you can even chase the thief down as he is getting away and shoot-to-kill. Not sure if he was full of it but that is what he told me. In Ft. Worth city limits. In daylight.

AgGunNut said:

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always gig em said:

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"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

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You can say this all you want, but when someone is breaking into your car, and you interject deadly force by going out to confront them, a jury won't buy it.

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Depends on how good your attorney is...I'm not an expert at the law but this is one thing I have learned.


Also, Only say "I was in deadly fear of my life officer" once then say "I don't think I can make any further comment without the presence of my attorney".

Mtn_Guide said:

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AgGunNut said:

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always gig em said:

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"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

"I was in deadly fear for my life officer"...........

---

You can say this all you want, but when someone is breaking into your car, and you interject deadly force by going out to confront them, a jury won't buy it.

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Depends on how good your attorney is...I'm not an expert at the law but this is one thing I have learned.


Also, Only say "I was in deadly fear of my life officer" once then say "I don't think I can make any further comment without the presence of my attorney".

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The ghost or Clarence Darrow could mate with the ghost of William Jennings Bryan, then their offspring could be raised by the ghost of Johnny Cochrane with F. Lee Bailey as the tutor, and that attorney wouldn't be able to get you off based on the facts. This would never, ever work in these circumstances. Ever.

drummer0415 said:

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I'm in the middle of installing cameras at my house for this very reason. I won't ever shoot somebody for breaking into my vehicle, but at least I can go out and confront them well armed and it wouldn't be a surprise.

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Can I ask a legitimate question(s) here? You say you won't ever shoot anyone for breaking into your vehicle... but then that you would arm yourself and confront them. Which of course might well lead to that person drawing a gun, at which point I would assume you would shoot? ...so wouldn't you be shooting someone for breaking into your vehicle? or would you be giving him/her a chance to either flee (do you let them get away?) or surrender? or choose to draw a weapon in which case your shoot is due to the weapon?

I'm actually fine with any of the scenarios, and not sure what I'd do personally, but am sort of fascinated by the decision making process.

Edit: I posted before I made it down to Bender's post, but there is a lot of good rational thinking in it that better addresses the quote/questions I posed above.

Quote:

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Ignoring the moral/legal arguments of shooting someone breaking into a car completely, it just makes no sense to confront someone.

If you see someone breaking into your car from your house, you have a very incomplete picture of the situation.

1) are they armed
2) do they have anyone else with them

It's typically going to be dark. If you leave your house to confront someone, you risk the possibility of them attacking you, having another person you haven't seen yet attacking you, etc....

You've left your family under defended in the house, left terrain you're familiar with, to confront an unknown number of possibly armed people over whatever you left in your car. I can find multiple links to stories of people who did exactly that and wound up bleeding out on their porch over it.

Call the cops, and stay armed inside the house to protect your family, because they are what need protecting, not the crap in your vehicle.

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Mojave said:

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Few years ago I had a burglar steal a laptop out of my truck, which was in my garage (garage door open.) When filing the police rept, the cop said if the vehicle is outside the garage you are taking chances legally by shooting. It is not worth the hassle. But if the vehicle is in the garage (across the threshold,) you can shoot-to-kill with no worry. Interestingly, he said you can even chase the thief down as he is getting away and shoot-to-kill. Not sure if he was full of it but that is what he told me. In Ft. Worth city limits. In daylight.

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That officer really shouldn't be giving legal advice like that.

Sean98 said:

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Which of course might well lead to that person drawing a gun, at which point I would assume you would shoot?

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Yes of course.

Sean98 said:

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so wouldn't you be shooting someone for breaking into your vehicle?

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No, I would be shooting them for threatening me with a deadly weapon.

Sean98 said:

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or would you be giving him/her a chance to either flee (do you let them get away?) or surrender? or choose to draw a weapon in which case your shoot is due to the weapon?

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Answer to all of those is yes, and you basically nailed the theif's options. If they surrender, that's my ideal outcome. Hold them there til cops arrive. If they flee, ok. Not ideal because no justice served but still not that bad. I'm definitely not shooting anyone in the back if they are fleeing, but at least that mofo knows he probably shouldn't mess with cars at that house again. Draw a weapon or attempt to attack me in any way, see answer above. I shoot because of threat of bodily harm. That is the least ideal outcome for many obvious reasons.

Quote:

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I shoot because of threat of bodily harm. That is the least ideal outcome for many obvious reasons.

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Why even bring this scenario into play?