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SBR Question

1,546 Views | 36 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by aggielostinETX
highvelocity
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I'm planning on registering the 204 Ruger build eyeguy put together as my Swiss army SBR lower. My question - I can use the same lower with a 223/556, 300blk and 762x39 uppers, correct?

Can you guys give me some recommendations on barrel length for each caliber?

Thank you
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aggielostinETX
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Yes, you can. But don't you want a different setup for the .204, than for your SBRs?


The sweet spot for 300 BLK is 9", but YMMV.

Nothing shorter than 10.5" for 5.56 unless you want to tune it.

No clue on the communist round.
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
highvelocity
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The 204 set up has the trigger and other goodies I want in a lower already.. so going for the efficiency and economy route
Owner of Texas Strap Company use code TEXAGS for 15% off
www.txstrapco.com

Sales Director for BCA Firearms
www.bcafirearmstx.com
TheEyeGuy
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Figure out what the shortest barrel that you'll run it as is going to be. Form 1 it as that. If you form 1 it as a 10.5" 556 and then throw an 8" 300blk upper... you're in bad shape.
Puryear Playboy
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You can put any upper on it you want.

Technically you should always be able to return it to the condition that you registered it as on the Form 1. So if your F1 was a 10.5" 5.56, then keep one of those uppers in the safe. I say technically because you would have to really try hard to get in trouble on that...even ATF doesn't have a hard rule on it. Most guys who permanently change to say a 12.5" barrel length just send them a letter notifying them of the change.

Interestingly, by putting a non-NFA upper on the receiver you can transport it across state lines without the permission slip. Just bring your short upper with you since it's just "parts". Stupid laws yield stupid actions that are legal.

The larger issue to educate yourself on is called Constructive Possession. Again, you pretty much have to flag down a BATFE agent on the street to get hit with this, our have your house searched by them looking for NFA violations...but it is a part of the law, stupid though it may be.

You need to be able to assemble all lowers into a legal configuration. So don't have five short uppers for your new playtoy and an extra lower or six with no legal length uppers to assemble on them.

Didn't put them together? Striped lowers with no parts kits installed? Own a full auto fire control part buried under the slab of your garage? And you own an AR? You sir are in violation of Constructive Possesion under the NFA!

Thought Crimes are real!
Puryear Playboy
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Eyeguy, do you have a letter on that? Or just the usual interpretation conjecture?

SBR is SBR. Post registration length is not an issue as long as you can return to registered configuration.
TheEyeGuy
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Just from talking to other people in the NFA world, and I probably was a little over the top by saying that "you're in bad shape" by going shorter, but it's the "safe way of doing it." Simply due to how the NFA laws can be a bit wonky and even contradictory at times, it's one of those deals that I'm erring on the side of caution on it.

Let me put it this way, it's a situation where a person going shorter should be in the right, but if you get some one with an axe to grind coming at you for some reason, do you want to push the issue when you know already that you'll be building a 300blk in 8" and a 5.56 in 10.5"?
highvelocity
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This was my understanding as well. Be able to assemble the rifle the way it was registered should you be asked to, but running various uppers doesn't matter as long as the lower is registered. An SBR is an SBR regardless of the length, yes?
Owner of Texas Strap Company use code TEXAGS for 15% off
www.txstrapco.com

Sales Director for BCA Firearms
www.bcafirearmstx.com
Puryear Playboy
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Actually no. There is an ATF letter out there that putting a non NFA length upper on the register lower removes the requirement to comply with certain restrictions like travel across state lines.

Don't think in AR terms...the law was written with fixed barrel rifles in mind and when they are doing their job correctly they have to interpret it that way. So if you put a 16" barrel on your SBR'd Rem 700 and then went to New Mexico to go hunting you wouldn't need to comply with NFA travel restrictions.

Not really an academic exercise for me since I have a Nemesis Arms Valkyrie rifle sitting here in my gun room...so now I have a bolt gun I can swap barrels on with no tools in 30 seconds...
highvelocity
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Sooo I can do what I'm trying to do lol?
Owner of Texas Strap Company use code TEXAGS for 15% off
www.txstrapco.com

Sales Director for BCA Firearms
www.bcafirearmstx.com
aggielostinETX
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highvelocity said:

Sooo I can do what I'm trying to do lol?


Just like you asked. You are fine swapping etc.
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
Puryear Playboy
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Yes, absolutely. You are fine.

The thing you need to remember about the NFA is that you can't know too much about it. You sort of have to be a geek about the rules because the penalties for screwing up are pretty steep.

The good thing is getting caught is pretty hard also unless you are a professional criminal.
Thor '89
ag0207
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So how long is the current wait time on getting approval on form 1?
highvelocity
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Forever and a day. Getting all my toys in the pipe before future wife says no more toys
Owner of Texas Strap Company use code TEXAGS for 15% off
www.txstrapco.com

Sales Director for BCA Firearms
www.bcafirearmstx.com
txyaloo
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If you have a registered SBR, it doesn't matter what length barrel is on it. To be an SBR, by definition, the gun simply has to have a barrel <16. A registered SBR is an SBR as long as the barrel is <16". The reason the ATF has requested (note: not required) people to send a letter is to ensure the NFRTR is somewhat accurate for future transfers or for LE investigations.

Puryear is correct about putting a non-SBR upper on a registered lower. That act turns the registered lower into a Title 1 gun, and you can carry it across state lines no problem. You can also sell the lower in that config without completing a Form 4. It would transfer as any other rifle. This goes back to the definition of an SBR. It would be smart to notify the ATF about the change so they can put a note in the NFRTR, but there is no requirement.
txyaloo
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TheEyeGuy said:


Let me put it this way, it's a situation where a person going shorter should be in the right, but if you get some one with an axe to grind coming at you for some reason, do you want to push the issue when you know already that you'll be building a 300blk in 8" and a 5.56 in 10.5"?
If that's the case, do you submit your F2s with a barrel length of 1"? That would solve any potential issues down the road. I realize this is an extreme example, but it's really no different than putting 8" to hedge your bets.
highvelocity
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So then once I register the lower I want to register as the SBR then I can't throw back on the 20' upper for the 204 rifle?
Owner of Texas Strap Company use code TEXAGS for 15% off
www.txstrapco.com

Sales Director for BCA Firearms
www.bcafirearmstx.com
meggy09
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highvelocity said:

So then once I register the lower I want to register as the SBR then I can't throw back on the 20' upper for the 204 rifle?


It's not as difficult as everyone is trying to make it. The ONLY thing that really matters is you don't have more complete, non SBR lowers than >16" uppers.
aggielostinETX
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meggy09 said:

highvelocity said:

So then once I register the lower I want to register as the SBR then I can't throw back on the 20' upper for the 204 rifle?


It's not as difficult as everyone is trying to make it. The ONLY thing that really matters is you don't have more complete, non SBR lowers than >16" uppers.
ETA: NOT A LAWYER. NOT LEGAL ADVICE. SOME DISAGREE.

nope.

You can have 10 uppers and 1 SBR lower and 1 regular lower.

Mating makes the issue. Until then it's a pistol upper.

Very simply:

Can do:
Any length barrel on SBR

Can't do:
<16" barrel on non-SBR


People say you can't put OAL of 28" with a 10" barrel and then put on a 8" lower b/c the new OAL(26") is shorter (longer doesn't matter) than your paperwork. But I honestly don't think there is any case law to back up that assertion.
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
Puryear Playboy
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HV, if you want to discuss it over the phone shoot me an email.
Thor '89
TheEyeGuy
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highvelocity said:

So then once I register the lower I want to register as the SBR then I can't throw back on the 20' upper for the 204 rifle?
That you can do. In fact, as pointed out earlier, it has certain advantages to do so.
3rdGenAg05
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I just got one back that took 55 weeks. Hopefully it's getting shorter now though. Good luck.
aggielostinETX
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I read there were 250k pre July of last year and 25k post July.
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
meggy09
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Deats said:

meggy09 said:



It's not as difficult as everyone is trying to make it. The ONLY thing that really matters is you don't have more complete, non SBR lowers than >16" uppers.
nope.

You can have 10 uppers and 1 SBR lower and 1 regular lower.

Mating makes the issue. Until then it's a pistol upper.



This is very bad information and I'd edit if I were you.
If those 10 uppers are all short barreled in the ATF eyes you are in possession of an illegal weapon, assembled or not. If 9 are short and 1 is >16" you're fine.
aggielostinETX
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meggy09 said:

Deats said:

meggy09 said:



It's not as difficult as everyone is trying to make it. The ONLY thing that really matters is you don't have more complete, non SBR lowers than >16" uppers.
nope.

You can have 10 uppers and 1 SBR lower and 1 regular lower.

Mating makes the issue. Until then it's a pistol upper.



This is very bad information and I'd edit if I were you.
If those 10 uppers are all short barreled in the ATF eyes you are in possession of an illegal weapon, assembled or not. If 9 are short and 1 is >16" you're fine.
Citation or ATF letter?

Now if you had 10 short uppers and only 1 non-SBR lower, I would be worried.
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
schmellba99
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I absolutely hate the absurdity of the arbitrary rules the ATF makes. Threads like this show just how easy it is to get confused, and as a result, potentially in bad straits.
BigPuma
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you have to be able to complete the non-sbr lower (assuming non pistol) into a legal weapon. So in your case you would need a 16" barrel upper. At least 1.

If pistol non-sbr lower and sbr lower, then sure 10 pistol length uppers sounds great.
aggielostinETX
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10 minutes of googling returns a few things:
US vs. Thompson Center; whereas Thompson wants to not pay the SBR tax when shipping a 10" pistol, with a shoulder stock and additional >16" barrel. They won.

A bunch of other forums discussing this same point we are, with no clear answer.
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
aggielostinETX
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BigPuma said:

you have to be able to complete the non-sbr lower (assuming non pistol) into a legal weapon. So in your case you would need a 16" barrel upper. At least 1.

If pistol non-sbr lower and sbr lower, then sure 10 pistol length uppers sounds great.
Using that logic, a completed lower would be an SBR, b/c technically the barrel is shorter than >16" and OAL shorter than 26", and you couldn't complete it to be legal.
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
Puryear Playboy
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Deats, the Thompson/Center case was more about the fact that you can convert a pistol to a rifle and back again. But you cannot, ever, convert a rifle to a pistol (if the rifle began life as a Rifle).

T/C was merely supplying the parts to make this legal conversion. Again, it goes back to being able to assemble your lowers into legal configurations.

In a small defense of the NFA it was never designed to deal with a modular weapon like the AR, so rules get pretty wonky. BATFE has then taken advantage of grey area to push their control beyond what most would consider reasonable limits.
Thor '89
aggielostinETX
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I agree on the TC case, just thought it was interesting.

Do you know anyone prosecuted or charged under the scenario above?
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
highvelocity
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i love stirring up the hornets nest. thanks for the info and the continued confirmation that the ATF rules are facking stupid.
Owner of Texas Strap Company use code TEXAGS for 15% off
www.txstrapco.com

Sales Director for BCA Firearms
www.bcafirearmstx.com
Puryear Playboy
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Deats,

You also state "mating is the issue." That is not correct. It's called Constructive POSSESSION for a reason. Simply having a rifle lower that can only be matched with a short upper puts you in violation.

Just like if I owned a full auto bolt for my 1919A6...I don't have to assemble it, owning it and the gun creates the offense.

Now, in your example above you are assuming a stripped lower, which is technically legal as it could be a pistol since it hasn't had a stock attached yet, but I think it is a fine point lost on most novices and you didn't lay it out very clearly.
Thor '89
aggielostinETX
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Agree to all that but how is it constructive possession if I have a legal SBR? I would agree on all points if no SBR was present.
“A republic, if you can keep it”

AggieKatie2 said:
ETX is honestly starting to scare me a bit as someone who may be trigger happy.
meggy09
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Deats said:

I agree on the TC case, just thought it was interesting.

Do you know anyone prosecuted or charged under the scenario above?


I'm having a very hard time following what you're talking about, but pretty much everyone is on the same page when it comes to constructive possession. I don't see how that is even up for discussion.
https://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/
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