I read through their published reasons and excuses. YOU didn't use it enough. We ran too high a DEFICIT. They make it sound like a huge albatross that was about to sink their organization.

Boy Scouts is going down the tubes. I expect that the LDS church (of which I'm a member) will drop scouting entirely within five years. And that will take away something like 20% of the current boy scouts. I really hope that DOESN'T happen.

I believe sometime in the next 10 years BSA will go the way of international scouting and just change to "Scouting" and drop the "boy" part. It will become co-ed scouting.

In the meantime went to what I think is probably the best scout camp within 200 miles of DFW, hadn't been there in 10 years. Felt like it's gone downhill since then. Hale Scout Reservation. One of the staffers told me that over the past many years since the Camp Director of 30 years retired, they have had a new Camp Director every year. I could tell. The operation was good/ok, much better than the disaster that was Camp Constantin, but it was not the same as in the mid/late '00s. Having said that, I'm hoping my troop will stay with Hale.

At the end of the day, when they do the post mortem on BSA, I think they will be looking at an overly fat executive structure that was very much focused on money and bonuses and corporate culture. Selling El Rancho Cima is the mark of an organization that is in retreat and dying. And if I were in the Sam Houston Council, I'd be assuring every executive in the council that it was my goal to run each and every one of them out of scouting.

BSA has been dying ever since they kowtowed to the gheys.

What's the tax bill on Cima? I drove through there in February, and the whole area just isnt the same as it was. Driveways every 100 yds, hillside houses on both sides. Just your garden variety the hill country pave over. I mean its very valuable property, River camp got destroyed by the flood, all the surrounding hills are now neighborhoods - seems like a good time to get out.

They probably pay zero property tax.

Spent many a summer camp and 3-day weekend camp at Cima in the '80's. Damn shame to see it sold out to development for another group of McMansions.

Fond memories of swimming in the river, hiking the hills, shooting .22's out past the dam, sneaking off to San Marcus for a Saturday night beer...

Now, if they do some good (like with the sale of Strake) and buy a larger property farther away from Austin, perhaps some good will come of it.

I thought at least part of the reason was the flood a few years ago.

The last flood, although major, wasn't the only one. My last trip to cima we were turned around and sent to Karankawa because river camp was under water in 98.

Sad tho see it gone. It was a great place... We're all losing what we've come to love about the hill country due to population.

I loved that place. Can't believe they sold it. Scouting had been going down hill since they started catering to anyone who *****es or complains at any level.

I changed troops as a kid because we went from a handful to 3 dozen, with most of the new kids having helicopter parents. Lots of moaning and complaining and expecting older kids to be baby sitters when their kids were in sugar highs and wouldn't sit still or listen. They were too corned about quantity and not quality.

The troop I switched to never got more than 8 kids, and all of us were at different ranks. We had two special needs kids that were more respectful and well behaved than the dozens of brats in my old troop. I learned and did 10x more with those guys. It was a hell of a lot more fun too.

Now they've started caving and catering to anyone who complains about anything, as if being a scout is a right and not a privilege. If you don't agree with the values and requirements, start your own damn organization. It's sad to see what it's become.

Didn't they trade use of the place with Capitol Area Council from time to time? I want to say that's where we had Camporee in 1990, but it's been a while.

Couple flip sides. Buddy's son just got back from Constantin, and loved it.

I just went through a week at Camp Wisdom for my son's day camp. I wore two hats, walker/dad, and district commissioner. Even without the pool, the kids had fun. Nearly every (minor) issue was adults, or junior staff.

Out district numbers aren's that different.

I felt the same way when the Bay Area Council sold the Hill Country Scout Ranch near Dripping Springs. They claimed it was too far for people in Houston to drive and that Camp Karankawa could be improved with the money to fill the gap. Karankawa was and is terrible...about the only thing the place was good for was growing enormous mosquitos. Sad to see another great camp bite the dust.

Do you know if they will let individuals camp there in the off season before they truly start shutting it all down?

ursusguy said:

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Couple flip sides. Buddy's son just got back from Constantin, and loved it.

I just went through a week at Camp Wisdom for my son's day camp. I wore two hats, walker/dad, and district commissioner. Even without the pool, the kids had fun. Nearly every (minor) issue was adults, or junior staff.

Out district numbers aren's that different.

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My problems with Constantin. I only went there once for summer camp. In 2009.

1. If your camp is not directly on the water and getting the prevailing breeze, it is unbearably hot. Most campsites are not getting any breeze at all.

2. The staff at Constantin were all kids (i.e. high school kids). No college-aged staff.

3. The merit badge classes were oversubscribed.

4. The camp itself was oversubscribed. The mess hall couldn't even accommodate all campers. Some campers had to eat on picnic tables outside the mess hall.

5. Offer fewer variety of merit badges.

6. Of course the amenities for adults at Constantin are/were poor. I don't recall that they offered any training for adults (CPR, Wilderness First Aid, etc.).

The good part about Constantin:

1. Good waterfront stuff.

In this link the Sam Houston council addresses criticisms and questions about the sale of El Rancho Cima.

http://www.samhoustonbsa.org/el-rancho-cima

It's a well known secret, usually at least one week out of the season, Constantin will be the hottest scout camp in the country.......actually not kidding about that......but there is a reason most people can't match me for working in heat ;-)

I would agree that many of the additional MB classes are flat out goofy.

All Circle 10 camps are mostly youth staff, and have been for a long time. Side effect of running 3 major camps for one of the largest councils in the country. The area directors are typically in colleges, but you're not typically going to have until they are 3rd year staff members.

ursusguy said:

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It's a well known secret, usually at least one week out of the season, Constantin will be the hottest scout camp in the country.......actually not kidding about that......but there is a reason most people can't match me for working in heat ;-)

I would agree that many of the additional MB classes are flat out goofy.

All Circle 10 camps are mostly youth staff, and have been for a long time. Side effect of running 3 major camps for one of the largest councils in the country. The area directors are typically in colleges, but you're not typically going to have until they are 3rd year staff members.

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and there's a reason why many Circle 10 troops don't attend Circle 10 summer camps.

Very true. But as you pointed out, they aren't hurting for numbers. Constantin still pulls a lot of out of council units due to the water front.

I always looks for recommendations to pass along.

Places like Colorado, New Mexico, and even Buffalo Trails have the advantage of being cool (temperature wise) at least in the evening. Makes it much easier to get older/retirees, etc. that are willing to work cheap. Most older staff at Constantin don't last long away from AC....not kidding.

We don't have the leeway to go very far from DFW per church rules. A couple of years the scouts when to northern New Mexico and I heard that was a good experience. But it was also much more expensive.

Talihina is about the closest we can get to "mountains" and different scenery than Texas.

Our troop camped at El Rancho Cima over a weekend last September after it was put on the market.
Mr. 88

going next week to Cima. We will see how it goes.

Our Troop is headed to Buffalo Trails on Saturday. Hoping for cooler weather - it's been 100+ all week. Unfortunately they had a boy pass away from heat stroke on the backpacking high adventure last week. Everybody stay hydrated!

I was told that there are closing ceremonies at El Rancho Cima on July 15(I think).

Tailgate88 said:

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Our Troop is headed to Buffalo Trails on Saturday. Hoping for cooler weather - it's been 100+ all week. Unfortunately they had a boy pass away from heat stroke on the backpacking high adventure last week. Everybody stay hydrated!

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Son just got back from Cavalcade. Was 111 the day of their longest trail ride, the day after the heat stroke incident. No major issues on the trail ride, although a horse kicked the hell out of him the evening before their last ride. Has a huge bruise on his thigh with the imprint of the horseshoe.

FYI Our troop was very unimpressed with the food, both at base camp and on the trail.

(There is a thread about heat stroke from a few days ago...start your boys drinking water before they get there)

Come on, it's always fun when the same "meat sauce product" is served in back to back meals as: hot dog chili, spaghetti sauce, stand alone chili, mixed with macaroni, and lastly served as sloppy joes. This literally lead to the camp director, heading into the kitchen and yelling at the food coordinator.

I always loved scout camp meals. It was usually a garuntee that I would have lots to choose from.

shiftyandquick said:

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They probably pay zero property tax.

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Assessed values (incl. exemptions) per Hays & Comal CADs are just over 1.7m annually. Tax on that ain't peanuts. Whole place is prolly worth what, $20-30m? That value is hard to ignore. Sucks for old school Cima campers.

ursusguy said:

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Come on, it's always fun when the same "meat sauce product" is served in back to back meals as: hot dog chili, spaghetti sauce, stand alone chili, mixed with macaroni, and lastly served as sloppy joes. This literally lead to the camp director, heading into the kitchen and yelling at the food coordinator.

I always loved scout camp meals. It was usually a garuntee that I would have lots to choose from.

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True story.

In 1992, I worked in the kitchen at Camp Strake. While normally a 1st year or J-staffer assignment, I was in my 4th year on Staff and was just looking to do something different that summer. We had a great kitchen crew and had a blast.

Anyway, that summer, along with the normal supply of peanuts, peanut butter, & butter the USDA Food Assistance Program gave us just over 800 frozen turkeys.

We had turkey and dressing, turkey tacos, turkey taquitos, turkey everything. It was almost like Bubba Gump, except turkey instead of Shrimp.

25 Summers later, I won't eat turkey. Have had it voluntarily maybe 2 times and probably had it snuck by me a couple of others, but just the smell of turkey gives me the hurls...makes for some queezy Thanksgivings (Aggie Football doesn't help that either most years)

Oh I can picture that.

I always got a kick out of getting rotated in to help the dining hall crew. They were always an interesting bunch (dude who would eat straight out of the swill buck--yeah not me actually, couple dudes that got in a "play" knife fight with actually stabbing and slicing, and the odd dude the business manager tried to shame/punish for needing a paycheck- surprise granddaddy is almost a billionaire and the 15 year old you are trying to shame has his own attorney and has a trust fund big enough to buy the whole damn camp---kid was cool as hell, his supervisor was a jackwagon. We always thought it was odd he was willing to pay for stuff when we went out. He never mentioned his money until the glorious "I would fire you if I didn't think you needed the money" incident. Suprise, granddaddy is one of the council's biggest donors and the pro staff is now scrambling).

I called the RE agent and talked to them. They are taking bids and there is no starting price, but they said I should start north of $10M.

Too bad I do not have that kind of money, I would love to own it. Lots of great memories. I did them the camps including Pack&Paddle.

We cooked 8 turkeys minimum a day 5 days a week from mid-June through early August, sent every staffer home with at least one turkey at the end of the summer and there was still turkey showing up at Winter Camp in December.

Sorry, but that is funny.

Sam Houston Area Council sold everything in the Hill Country. Most was donated. They made a fortune to try to survive the many bad decisions they have made. Starting with a big expensive Council Office!

I was Scoutmaster in Spring for 5 years and saw a lot of terrible decisions! Raised a lot of money for them too!

What is Camp Strake like now? The only thing I remember about it from when I was a kid is the alligators. And the plywood outhouses.

Sold and being "rebuilt" in a new location.

So there's officially nothing left from my childhood in the Sam Houston Council.

El Rancho Cima, Strake, and the Astrodome (I guess actually it was the convention center or whatever).

Is Camp Arrowmoon still out there next to Bryan, or have they sold that too?

Arrowmoon is still there, but not owned by SHAC