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87Flyfisher et al... PhD nymph rig discussion

3,357 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 9 yr ago by LRHF
AggieChemist
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When indicator (not tight line or Czech style) nymphing in choppy, broken water, I like to use a thingamabobber for a strike indicator. It floats a weighted multi fly rig better than sticky foam, is easier to adjust depth, and doesn't leave sticky crap on my leader.

In the past, my approach has been to just throw a loop in my leader through the eye of the thingamabobber, then drop down however far, add a couple split shots, and then my two flies, with the dropper hanging off the bend of the top fly. This was easy, fast, and the thingamabobber could be easily adjusted. The downsides are that occasionally I will get the thingamabobber twisted up and knotted, especially after a few fish on a windy day, or that the sink rate on the thicker section of the leader isn't very good.

I have played around with a "90 degree" rig a little bit, and my approach was to tie the butt section to the eye of the thingamabobber, and then tie tippet to that same eye, running down to my fly. This adds more potential failure points but inserts a "hinge" in the line, and allows me to run fluoro all the way to the fly, giving better sink rate and less visibility.

On the most recent Orvis podcast, a steelhead guide was discussing the 90 degree rig, but it sounds like he ties his tippet to the butt section BEFORE the thingamabobber. I'm envisioning a surgeon's knot with the thingamabobber on the tag downstream of the knot. I'm trying to figure out whether I like that idea, as it sounds like a way to increase tangles and knots in the system. I guess it would be a benefit in that if you hook up, you're not stressing two knots on the thingamabobber, especially important for a hard fighting fish like steelhead.

One final issue that I've been ruminating on is the tendency for split shot to slide down tippet (especially fine tippet) and lay on the fly. I've considered throwing an overhand knot in the tippet to stop this, but doesn't that give you another failure point in the system above the flies? As an alternative, I might drop 6-8" of tippet off the bend of my dropper fly and put the split shot on the bottom. This won't allow the flies to free float as much, but will definitely get them DOWN. It would have the added benefit of being the first point to get hung, and would likely be the failure point, saving flies in the process.

Lots of thoughts here. Would like to read others' thoughts.
agnerd
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What happens in the bedroom should stay in the bedroom...
AggieChemist
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LRHF
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Here's a few comments:

You can use an Air-lock strike indicator to eliminate some of the kinks in leader. It uses a knurled section to pinch the leader without leaving a memory in your leader. My wife loves them but I typically use Thingamabobbers or Corqs (cork indicator with upper half painted to help show more sensitivity when floating in water, can be easier to cast in the wind).

I always cut the leader and tie a surgeons knot to prevent split shot from slipping. When using a tapered leader, trim 10-12" off. For double fly rigs use two diameters of tippet to minimize losses (standard setup I am sure you already use)

You might think about using tippet rings to help with making a hinged leader. I wouldn't worry much about your knots but don't really like the idea of tying the strike indicator into the nymph system without having the ability to move up/ down the leader. Are you trying to get a leader setup to get to bottom quick and maximize your drift at a set water depth?

Look forward to hearing from some of the Professionsals on the board!
SanAntoneAg
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AC, please refrain from speaking Spanish on this board. We all speak English.

Also, an overhead knot on your tippet is beging for trouble.
JobSecurity
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I understood about two of those words
dubi
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foleyt said:

I understood about zero of those words
FIFY
SunrayAg
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I have never used stand alone strike indicators. I add some bright foam to the top of a dry fly like a stimulator, and use it as an indicator above my nymph.
OnlyForNow
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I'm like you. But then I've never caught the fish that AC has and if I ever get the chance to fish with him I'll let him rig me up however he says to do it.
TxAG-010
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Sorry AC I'm just now seeing this. LRHF said just about everything I was going to. I always tie a surgeons or blood knot (if you are stepping down tippet) where I want my split shot so it will not slip down. One thing that helps is using flies with tungsten heads. It gets the flies down faster than lead and helps eliminate some of the split shot needed, but not all. I haven't personally used the airlock indicators just haven't had the opportunity, but I know a guy that has used them specifically for SH in Idaho. I've heard nothing but good things about them from him and he's throwing them on a Spey rod. As LRHF stated they won't leave a kink in the leader which is nice if your spending time or money tying or buying leaders for SH.
AggieChemist
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LRHF said:

Here's a few comments:

You can use an Air-lock strike indicator to eliminate some of the kinks in leader. It uses a knurled section to pinch the leader without leaving a memory in your leader. My wife loves them but I typically use Thingamabobbers or Corqs (cork indicator with upper half painted to help show more sensitivity when floating in water, can be easier to cast in the wind).

I always cut the leader and tie a surgeons knot to prevent split shot from slipping. When using a tapered leader, trim 10-12" off. For double fly rigs use two diameters of tippet to minimize losses (standard setup I am sure you already use)

You might think about using tippet rings to help with making a hinged leader. I wouldn't worry much about your knots but don't really like the idea of tying the strike indicator into the nymph system without having the ability to move up/ down the leader. Are you trying to get a leader setup to get to bottom quick and maximize your drift at a set water depth?

Look forward to hearing from some of the Professionsals on the board!

The air-lock looks interesting (I googled). I've not seen those before. How well does the clamp "bite"? Does it move around when casting?

I had the same thought about putting the indicator off-line... the whole rig would have to be retied for any change in depth.

Yes, the general point is to get the flies down as quickly as possible and stay in the strike zone as long as possible. Often times in swift water you're fishing a short piece of water and the fish lie might be the size of a bathtub.
AggieChemist
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SunrayAg said:

I have never used stand alone strike indicators. I add some bright foam to the top of a dry fly like a stimulator, and use it as an indicator above my nymph.
I fish a dry dropper all the time in certain situations, but for a weighted multifly nymph rig, a dry fly would get drowned immediately.

On native streams, I like to fish a size 14 Royal Wulff with a size 16 flashback pheasant tail dropped about 18" below it. It's killer, but won't work in this situation, where I need to get a couple of flies down 4 feet or so quickly.
AggieChemist
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TxAG-010 said:

Sorry AC I'm just now seeing this. LRHF said just about everything I was going to. I always tie a surgeons or blood knot (if you are stepping down tippet) where I want my split shot so it will not slip down. One thing that helps is using flies with tungsten heads. It gets the flies down faster than lead and helps eliminate some of the split shot needed, but not all. I haven't personally used the airlock indicators just haven't had the opportunity, but I know a guy that has used them specifically for SH in Idaho. I've heard nothing but good things about them from him and he's throwing them on a Spey rod. As LRHF stated they won't leave a kink in the leader which is nice if your spending time or money tying or buying leaders for SH.
I guess I'll have to look into these airlocks and try them.

I will sometimes use a tunghead fly as my top fly and then drop an unweighted fly off of that one. For some reason, especially for steelhead, I like to have unweighted flies that dance a little as they drift. For trout, I use a lot of tunghead pheasant tails, prince nymphs, hare's ears, and rainbow warriors. Tying a weighted egg is a bit more of a challenge. I've done it, but the yarn doesn't fluff very well on lead wire.
OnlyForNow
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Are you targeting a specific hole in a stretch you normally fish? Or is this typical of the general area you're wanting to fish more/better.


If I know you, you've seen a pig of a trout in that hole.
docb
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I can tell you that I have tried the Lightning Strike indicators and I will not buy those again. I thought they would do well but they come off too easy. I don't like the bend that the thingamabobbers put in the line but they seem to work as well as anything.
AggieChemist
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bookmyer said:

I can tell you that I have tried the Lightning Strike indicators and I will not buy those again. I thought they would do well but they come off too easy. I don't like the bend that the thingamabobbers put in the line but they seem to work as well as anythin
Don't waste your money on Fish Pimp either. And I have yet to find a situation where the New Zealand wool works better than a dry-dropper.
AggieChemist
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OnlyForNow said:

Are you targeting a specific hole in a stretch you normally fish? Or is this typical of the general area you're wanting to fish more/better.


If I know you, you've seen a pig of a trout in that hole.
I'm trying to construct a more versatile, effective indicator nymph system because in general I want my flies to get down as quickly as possible. I also want the system to be user friendly so that I can change depth until I dial in where the fish are feeding. And moving from spot to spot, that depth will vary.
LRHF
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If you want a really deep dive on Nymphing, check out George Daniel's book "Dynamic Nymphing". Much of the book is on tight line techniques but he does spend some time on "suspended" nymphing aka strike indicators.

I haven't used the NZ strike indicator but have replicated with wool and a slip knot. I like using a dry fly as a strike indicator when fishing where there is a good chance could get a surface strike. End up with a three fly rig if truly need two nymphs and at this point would rather have my strike indicator. (Don't get me wrong, love a hopper dropper if it makes sense!)

Fun discussion on how to rig, equally important to focus on casting to give nymph rig best chance to get to bottom quickly. Google "Tuck Cast"!

Still looking forward to hearing from our resident professional!
dubi
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LRHF said:

"Dynamic Nymphing"
LRHF
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Even funnier if you knew what LRHF stands for!
rather be fishing
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dubi
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LRHF said:

Even funnier if you knew what LRHF stands for!
Well I'm waiting to be enlightened!
LRHF
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The air-lock indicators don't slip on the leader. I don't think they are as sensitive as a Thingamabobber or Corqs but I don't think this would be an issue for SH.
AggieChemist
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LRHF said:

The air-lock indicators don't slip on the leader. I don't think they are as sensitive as a Thingamabobber or Corqs but I don't think this would be an issue for SH.


Steelhead takes can be extremely subtle. It's after the take that things get less than subtle!
ursusguy
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Mini fishing...right up AC's alley.
87Flyfisher
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I have been guiding everyday since Tuesday so I am late to the party.
It looks like a lot of good info has been given. My three nymph rigs are:

2) In line- Thingamabobber or Corq Indicator ( Iike the natural color corqs in clear skinny water). As has been mentioned, I make my last tippet piece the distance I want the spit shot from the fly and position the shot above the bllod knot to stop it from sliding down. Overhand knots get progressively weaker when tied in mono, so you don't want then for any reason.

2) 90 Degree- Plus-Gets the flies down quicker. I use stubby 3-4 foot butt sections of old leaders with a perfection loop tied in each end. I put the indicator at the far end. I then put a perfection or surgeon's loop in a piece of 3x tippet, loop that to the end of the leader section, tie a piece of 4x to that and tie the first fly to that . I want the shot on the 3x section because spit shot slightly weaken the line and I want the strongest set up possible. Drawback to the rig is you have to lengthen or shorten the tippet in order to make the flies deeper or shallower.

3) Provo Bounce Rig- I use it more all of the time. It is more complex to tie, But by moving the spit shot and the indicator up or down it allows you to put the lower fly as close to the stream bottom as possible and there is a huge advantage to the shot being the lowest portion of the rig instead of a fly with a hook in it. Best choice on bright, clear post cold front days when the trout are hugging the bottom.
AggieChemist
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I've never used the Corqs. Looks like they are just a cork thingamabobber?

Just ordered a few to try them out.
LRHF
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Yes but they are heavier and come in either all natural cork finish or just cork finish in the bottom with a painted upper half. I prefer the painted upper half to show a visual on the water to help determine subtle takes. If you drop one or lose a set up, they are a little better environmentally. They were designed by a guide that has been focused on the San Juan River for a number of years (Ryan McRarie) and a well known nymph fishery. They do slip when you get into the tippet portion of your leader (5x-7x). You can pick these up at Orvis under their branding I think.
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