Ok Outdoors:

Is it legal for me to take my shotgun and/or rifle to shoot along the brazos river bank? I believe it is illegal to shoot across the water, but can I shoot along the same bank? I called the Brazos County Sherrif's office a few months back and asked if it was ok, and they said there was no problem as long as I was using safe shooting practices, but I have had a few friends tell me tales of being harassed by LEO for doing the same. The specific location is at the end of Batt's ferry road, off of Koppe bridge road. I've been looking at the laws, and my eyes are getting tired. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Don't know the laws but cops will likely show up. People shooting in areas that are not their own property or a shooting range will attract attention. Couple people I know tried to shoot in that area and the cops were there quickly.

As long as you aren't too close to a road and you aren't on someone elses property then you are good. Isn't that what rivers are for? Catchin fish, drinkin beer, and shootin crap.

Remember, it is illegal/trespassing for your bullet to cross into private property.

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Remember, it is illegal/trespassing for your bullet to cross into private property.

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Yep, shooting along/into the same bank below flood level.

Not an issue here, but do keep in mind it is illegal to shoot into the river banks in several Hill Country counties.

ah, shooting at The Tree...

For those unfamiliar, this is where OP is talking about http://g.co/maps/zys3x

Some tidbits about shooting there:

A lot of people that shoot out at Batts Ferry do NOT follow safe firing practices or laws, and have made the situation a bit more rough for everyone else. A few years ago, a kid with a slam firing AK clone got shot though the hand/leg by his girlfriend. That, especially, shined an unpleasant spotlight on the area.

I have shot out there, off and on, for years. I have been approached twice by non-shooters, once by a guy who lived down the road and once by a constable. Constable asked where I was shooting and what I shooting at, looked at a few of my guns, and hung out while we kept shooting. Neighbor just gave me a heads up that some people were arrested out there for shooting into the river bank.

Now, for some specifics on shooting there.

* The land to the right (over the continually rebuilt and destroyed berm) is private property, with quite a bit of federal property in it (repeater tower for landing approach on the land). A lot of people shoot on that land, and quite a few shoot into the FAA tower.

* The area is frequently used for poachers and fishers alike, so even if you don't see vehicles, make sure to look around for people.

* The area is also frequently used as a take out for kayaking or tubing, and has some other boat traffic. Don't shoot into the water.

* Tons of people have shot at the cattle/signs/dirt/headstones on the neighbors land. Obviously, he doesn't like that very much.



Overall, despite the fact that I've shot there before, I'd suggest finding somewhere else. Just my .02

Last few times i was down there, that place started to look more and more like a landfill. Seemed like there were literally thousands of shell casings everywhere. If folks are going to shoot down there, at least make an attempt to pick up your friggin shells.

Last time i was down there i also saw a trash bag on the side of the road that was torn apart and had about half a dozen or so dead largemouth bass that were in the 3-5 lb range. WTH?

[This message has been edited by BurrOak (edited 4/20/2012 6:42a).]

If you plan on going to a river to shoot, you better make sure you know where the boundary is between the river and the upland property owner. Historically, there is barely enough room to walk along a river, before you are actually tresspassing.

In most places, along the Brazos, there may be 1-2 feet from the waters edge that is within the boundary of the river, after that, you are on private property.

[This message has been edited by Doc Hayworth (edited 4/20/2012 7:24a).]

I was always under the impression (correct me if I'm completely wrong - it's 8:15am and I've been wrong a couple of times already today) that the boundary of the river is the established high water mark. At least I recall reading (probably on here) some case law that established that in several areas once, long ago.

Factually, those wide banks have nothing to do with the boundary of the river.

The boundary for all navigable rivers is determined by the gradient line, which from personal knowledge, from Surveying along the Brazos, does not range very far from the waters edge. The inside of an ox-bow is the only exception where the boundary may be as much as 50 feet from the water, but that is in very few areas.

The high banks of a river is not an idication of where the state owned land and the private lands border each other.

I could get into a long explanation of how the boundary is determined, but to make it short, the gradient line is determined by establishing a point half way between the lowest qualified bank and the bed of the channel.

In areas of cut banks, that is pretty much the boundary line. The gradient line is somewhere above the water, along the side of the cut bank.

Edited to add that the high water mark has nothing to do with the boundary established between the state and private owners.

[This message has been edited by Doc Hayworth (edited 4/20/2012 8:20a).]

sounds like a great place to do one or more of the following:

1. Get arrested
2. Get killed
3. Kill someone
4. Have a great time

Interesting. Learned something new today. I like it.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/nonpwdpubs/water_issues/rivers/navigation/riddell/gradientboundary.phtml

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The specific location is at the end of Batt's ferry road, off of Koppe bridge road.

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Thats where I use to take girls after the bar on saturday nights when I lived in the corp dorms to get lucky

^I used to live down the road, more than once I had people knock at my door because they got their truck stuck and needed to get hauled out.

ursusguy posted some good references, but you really have to go back to the court case he stated between Oklahoma and TExas, wherein Colonel Stiles developed the method of the Gradient Boundary.

The term cutbank is an incorrect statement in most of the above citations. The correct wording should have stated lowest qualified bank, which is found in Colonel Stiles description of work.

My Bad, I mistated. As ursusguy posted above, "Motl v. Boyd" is where the gradient boundary was accepted as developed by Colonel Stiles is described.

All in all, good info.


[This message has been edited by Doc Hayworth (edited 4/20/2012 11:08a).]

Im glad the internet wasnt around (or we at least didnt check it) when we went shooting in the river. After reading this thread, im worn out and wouldnt feel like messing with it. When we felt like shooting, we grabbed our guns and headed to the river and got to it however we saw fit, then proceeded to shoot, fish and generally have a good time before leaving. Never remember a single person complaining, and it was usually so far off the beaten path that no cop was going to haul his big ass down to check it out. Guess times are different now.

We didn't make messes though. We were also quick with good ears...if we heard a truck or tractor or 4 wheeler, we hauled ass or hid until the 'threat' had passed. We were also on foot so you didnt have a big truck sticking out like a sore thumb. For us, 'private land' and 'river' were mutually exclusive. If it was inside the river bank, or more appropriately, outside the fenceline up on the cut bank, we owned it as far as we cared.

Wouldnt do that now though.