Square Root Curve?

11,166 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by GrimesCoAg95
Bonfire97
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I am hoping someone can help me understand this a little better. My high school junior works really hard to get good grades and came home very upset about a curve the teacher gave. He said "I don't know why I even try". This curve apparently takes the square root of the grade and multiplies it by 10. So, his 96 got bumped to a 98. Someone with an 84 gets a 92 and so on.

Can someone with an education background please explain to me how this is at all fair? Isn't this basically socialism? I have never heard of this and it seems like a great way to demoralize students who bust their behinds.
PeekingDuck
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That's crazy. You could average a 50 and still end up at 70. I'm thinking maybe COVID causing kids to give very little effort and the schools have been told to bump it up, but who knows anymore?
Bonfire97
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OK, so I spoke to the teacher about this. Her justification was that since this is an AP course, she is trying to make a 50 a 70 and said that the "college grading" on the AP test itself is generally a pass (or 3) for a 50. I am not sure I am buying this. I spoke to several co-workers who have kids in AP classes in high school and they have never heard of this. I mentioned this to her and her response was that this not an applied standard and some teachers to this, and some don't. I also reminded the teacher that this was not documented in the school district grading policy.

So, what are everyone's thoughts? Drop it and move on? Or, escalate to the principal, then superintendent, and then file a grievance with the school board (I sort of think in binary - either do nothing, or push it to the max).

I am sorry, but this feels very unfair. And, as I told the teacher, there is no better way to destroy a student that works as hard as possible and studies until all hours of the night, than to reward the ones who don't.

Edit: The teacher mentioned this was just not one test. This will be applied the entire school year.
b0ridi
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Bonfire97 said:

I also reminded the teacher that this was not documented in the school district grading policy.


Does the policy say that teachers are not allowed to curve grades? Your child's curved grade is still higher than the other student's curved grade. Ground the helicopter. This exact curve (10*sqrt(grade)) was used in one of my difficult AP classes long ago.

People that don't perform as well/don't make as much money often get more benefits - progressive taxes, welfare, etc. Life isn't fair. Good lesson to learn early on.
Sliced Clown Bread
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My wife use to be a teacher and I have a math background. I use to look at her grade books and was appalled. What I can say is that this has been going on for a very long time in different ways.

Bonfire97
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Well, it gets even better. I only knew half the story. Not only is this teacher applying a square root curve, but is allowing the students do test corrections to get 1/2 the points back before the curve is applied. So, basically, the worst you can make on a test is a 70. A zero gets a 70 if you correct the test and hand it back in. This is going beyond just being unfair. It's outright demoralizing to the students who try hard. Needless to say, I am planning to pursue this until I run out of options. Funny, I talked to 5-6 coworkers who have had kids in AP high school classes at various other high schools. Nobody has heard of this extent of handouts.
4xAgs
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Bonfire97 said:

OK, so I spoke to the teacher about this. Her justification was that since this is an AP course, she is trying to make a 50 a 70 and said that the "college grading" on the AP test itself is generally a pass (or 3) for a 50. I am not sure I am buying this. I spoke to several co-workers who have kids in AP classes in high school and they have never heard of this. I mentioned this to her and her response was that this not an applied standard and some teachers to this, and some don't. I also reminded the teacher that this was not documented in the school district grading policy.

So, what are everyone's thoughts? Drop it and move on? Or, escalate to the principal, then superintendent, and then file a grievance with the school board (I sort of think in binary - either do nothing, or push it to the max).

I am sorry, but this feels very unfair. And, as I told the teacher, there is no better way to destroy a student that works as hard as possible and studies until all hours of the night, than to reward the ones who don't.

Edit: The teacher mentioned this was just not one test. This will be applied the entire school year.


Good opportunity to teach your child that life is not fair and to focus on themselves rather than worrying about what others are doing. Does it really matter what grade Jack or Suzy gets?
mic suede
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Helicopter in and make demands.
Heisenberg01
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Bonfire97 said:

Well, it gets even better. I only knew half the story. Not only is this teacher applying a square root curve, but is allowing the students do test corrections to get 1/2 the points back before the curve is applied. So, basically, the worst you can make on a test is a 70. A zero gets a 70 if you correct the test and hand it back in. This is going beyond just being unfair. It's outright demoralizing to the students who try hard. Needless to say, I am planning to pursue this until I run out of options. Funny, I talked to 5-6 coworkers who have had kids in AP high school classes at various other high schools. Nobody has heard of this extent of handouts.

Jeez Karen! It encourages kids to take AP courses. It is not hurting your kids GPA, but it is increasing the grades of kids in the AP class vs other classes that are non-AP courses. Settle down Frances.
ReveilleBark
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The fact you felt that this was a necessary post is beyond me. Tell your kid to enjoy the generous curve and use his extra time to put more effort into his other more challenging/less curved courses.
bmks270
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It's probably an AP class that has kids in it that shouldn't be, and the teacher's bosses have told her that she can't flunk half the class because, well, just because she can't.
So instead of doing the right thing, giving out Ds and Fs, she has to invent some grade inflating grading scheme.
TexasAggie81
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Bonfire97 said:

I am hoping someone can help me understand this a little better. My high school junior works really hard to get good grades and came home very upset about a curve the teacher gave. He said "I don't know why I even try". This curve apparently takes the square root of the grade and multiplies it by 10. So, his 96 got bumped to a 98. Someone with an 84 gets a 92 and so on.

Can someone with an education background please explain to me how this is at all fair? Isn't this basically socialism? I have never heard of this and it seems like a great way to demoralize students who bust their behinds.


The square root grading curve is a method for raising the grades of an entire class to bring them into closer alignment with expectations. It is often used to correct for unexpectedly difficult tests or as a general rule for difficult classes.

TexasAggie81
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No extra chances. Bring your A-game on exam day or pay the consequences. What employer will give you a second chance if you choke during your first one?
OldArmy71
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bmks270 said:

It's probably an AP class that has kids in it that shouldn't be, and the teacher's bosses have told her that she can't flunk half the class because, well, just because she can't.
So instead of doing the right thing, giving out Ds and Fs, she has to invent some grade inflating grading scheme.

I taught AP for 23 years. Bingo.
Aggie_Boomin 21
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The curve is definitely not fair, but lol no it's not socialism.

Had a 300 level engineering course at A&M do this for an exam. Turned my worst ever exam grade of a 49 into a 70.
TRM
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Bonfire97 said:

Well, it gets even better. I only knew half the story. Not only is this teacher applying a square root curve, but is allowing the students do test corrections to get 1/2 the points back before the curve is applied. So, basically, the worst you can make on a test is a 70. A zero gets a 70 if you correct the test and hand it back in. This is going beyond just being unfair. It's outright demoralizing to the students who try hard. Needless to say, I am planning to pursue this until I run out of options. Funny, I talked to 5-6 coworkers who have had kids in AP high school classes at various other high schools. Nobody has heard of this extent of handouts.
The high school I taught at 5 yrs was letting kids do corrections and retest as part of their remediation process. It was pretty dumb. I made a point of telling the kids you don't get these opportunities in the real world.

Square root curve isn't really fair, but it does keep a zero at a zero and 100 at a 100. I would tend to use conformal mappings to curve anything I wanted to curve, but, generally, I mapped the median to a 70 using these mappings
Duncan Idaho
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This isnt something new. I had multiple profs use a square root curve at aTm. Of course your actual grade score meant nothing as all the final grades were the result of a forced rank. At the end of the semester the line for an A was what ever it needed to be to get X% of students an A
Ghost of Bisbee
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OP, are you gonna be there to answer for your kid in job interviews?

This screams helicopter parenting and it's frowned upon.
one MEEN Ag
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Bonfire, trying to not pile on here.

The bigger question here is, why do we even use a 100 point grading system, but letter grades end at 60 points? The square root system helps map tough graders into the accepted point values of A B C D F. Nobody really moves up on the bell curve here. Compounding this, AP tests use a 1 through 5 final grade. So the kids need to be able to understand how grades are mapped anyway.

AP classes are a double edged sword. The kids who are struggling but still learning can get crushed harder than if they stayed in on-level. This helps balance that out. Where the kid who takes a chance on AP course doesn't come out worse for the wear. The knowledge gained is worth it, even if the knowledge for some kids is that they really need to pick up and try harder.

There were no scholarships handed out that day at the end of the assignment, especially to this kids who benefited the most from a square root curve.

By the way, you want a square root curve versus other types of grade modifications. The smartest kid in the room can't wreck a square root curve, but they can destroy a simple 'add points to get the best score to 100."

If your kid is going to go into anything technical in college, this is common practice. And you're going to find out that your kid isn't the one who is acing these exams anymore.
amg405
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Not in education anymore, but taught AP World History to sophomores for 5 years. For many in Texas this was their first AP course unless they had access to AP Human Geography at the freshmen level.

Square root curve was the only option unless my failure rate was going to be at 40%. Our standard was 12% failure rate or lower, AP or otherwise.

I wrote my tests at the AP exam level to benefit my students that wanted real preparation for the actual exam. They were grueling exams.

Not sure where the OP went, but this is standard practice. If they're not grading with a curve, they're giving other opportunities to make up the points.

I was also an administrator at the high school level and failure rate pressure is real. It is what it is.
Quito
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If the minimum wasn't good enough, there wouldn't be a minimum.

I kid, but it's true and we now work towards the minimum because throughout many different industries, exceeding the standard is no longer the goal and you simply aren't rewarded for it.

Stinks, but works we live in and I choose to embrace it and simply go about my business on east street without really trying. I guess I'll have fewer grey hairs and better heart health.

Again, I kid, but not really.
GrimesCoAg95
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I had this type of curve while in engineering classes. The point is that it takes a very broad distribution and tightens it up towards the top. A 25 is still only a 50. It is most advantageous to people from a 49 to 81. I think the correcting the exam for half points is crazy. It should be correct the errors you made, and you will get the square root curve. Otherwise, your grade is your grade.

It stinks for your student, but look at the bright side. He kicked the crap out of that exam. He mastered the material, and can take his 96 or do some corrections and get a couple of extra points. Living your life by what others are getting will not lead to contentment or happiness.

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