Is A&M a diploma mill?

16,513 Views | 39 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by aggie93
TAMU bball fan
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Enrollment is almost 72,000 students??

My daughter is looking at colleges and thinks it's too big. Rice is her first choice and UT-Austin is her safety school. A&M used to be comparable to UT, but now? Hard sell.
FredMc92
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I wouldn't want my kid to go to A&M now. 53K undergrads? That's idiotic.
AgOutsideAustin
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AG
TAMU bball fan said:

Enrollment is almost 72,000 students??

My daughter is looking at colleges and thinks it's too big. Rice is her first choice and UT-Austin is her safety school. A&M used to be comparable to UT, but now? Hard sell.


Why wouldn't she look at smaller schools as her safety school ? A&M is too big but tu is not ? Okay. Congratulations on a very smart daughter.
C1NRB
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AG
I have to say "No," based on the generally accepted definition of "diploma mill." Size doesn't matter.

If you want a history lesson keep reading:

In the interest of (mostly) full disclosure, I'm in the "higher ed business." I am not currently faculty, but have taught before.

We have our liberal arts brethren/friends in Austin to thank for the size A&M is today. Last century they had a law school applicant-turned plaintiff named Cheryl Hopwood who filed suit against the university claiming reverse discrimination. https://ballotpedia.org/Hopwood_v._Texas

She lost, but appealed to the 5th Circuit which overturned the lower court's decision thereby disallowing race, even in conjunction with other criteria, for admission decisions. In response to the 5th Circuit's ruling and as a way to skirt "race based" factors, the state established the Top 10% Rule. In a nutshell, any student that graduates in the Top 10% of their class from any accredited high school in Texas is guaranteed admission to any public institution of higher education regardless of their GPA, extracurricular activities, etc. The intent was to encourage, by removing admission barriers, enrollment into the flagships (A&M et al) by students from any background that might not otherwise meet SAT/ACT and/or GPA admission criteria.

It worked. Too well, in fact. I saw this coming and predicted that it wouldn't last as it was written for the simple fact that in order to defeat this statute the "only" thing that needed to happen was for too many (at the time I said "all") of a particular graduating class to arbitrarily decide to attend one school. My example was some place like Stephen F. Austin or Angelo State. By law, ALL applicants MUST be let in, but what would a school like that do with all of them?

Fast forward to more recent times... The 40 acres in Austin is landlocked. It took a while, but eventually they had to let in more freshman than they could accommodate. That's why they got it changed to Top 8%, then Top 7% and lately the Top 6% Rule for themselves only. The t-shirt parents all over the state finally broke them. A&M, on the other hand, still has room to grow and so it does.

That's not to say A&M is anyone's second choice. It simply that the campus and, to a slightly lesser degree, Lubbock was able to handle the growth.

Here's an fun fact to file under the Law of Unintended Consequences- About 5 years after Top 10% went into effect a "reverse white-flight" took place whereby parents that lived in the suburbs would get transfers for their Top 15-20% kids to "less competitive" high schools for their senior year so they could get that guaranteed acceptance upon graduation. Make a rule and someone immediately starts looking for a loophole or work-around.
FredMc92
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If we held the line at an enrollment of ~50K, with 20-25% of those being grad students, we would also have to do some version of 9%, 8%, etc.

I'd be totally fine with that.
Macarthur
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May son is a freshman in engineering so our experience here is fresh.

To the OP, no, I don't believe that true of A&M.

As many have pointed out, the state has a huge problem because of the population explosion. And the 'old ags' that complain about there being too many students need to realize that there are kids far better than them that are not getting into A&M these days. I don't think many realize how many high quality students the state of Texas is pumping out each year.

lb3
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A&M's College Station campus enrollment is a smaller percentage of the Texas population today than it was in 1980.

Hardly a diploma mill.
500,000ags
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Depends on the degree program.
UndergroundAg
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My opinion is that yes it is now a diploma mill. We need to cap enrollment or move to a top 7% rule like UT.
AgOutsideAustin
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UndergroundAg said:

My opinion is that yes it is now a diploma mill. We need to cap enrollment or move to a top 7% rule like UT.


Think they are at 6% now
mccjames
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Where are you coming up with that number?

Undergrad is 53k

tu is 41K

A&M has been pushed by the state because we have land and space to expand. Texas has neither, white creek apartments are the same size as tu Campus!

However my daughter class of 23 says it is way smaller in feel than tu and she is always amazed at how many people she knows in her 1 1/2 years on campus even with COVID.

Every school is what you make, she has a friend transferring from a 5k population school because she just didn't feel she made friends or fit in. She figured she would have to find some group she fit with this many people.

WhoHe
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To me, the definition of a diploma mill is an institution that takes all-comers regardless of credentials and qualifications, just to fill the classrooms and the coffers.

So with that, TAMU is far from a diploma mill. This year I heard from an admissions director that they received 55K applications compared to last year's 42K. They typically admit around 24K, with a target enrollment of under 12K. So this year they are going to deny around 30K applicants - this will be about 43% acceptance.

When you start talking about acceptance rates of the largest state schools, you can see TAMU is far from a diploma mill ... Ohio State is 53%, Maryland is 100%, Florida is 38%, Arizona State is 86%, Minnesota is 56% and Michigan State is 71% ... these are all top-ten public enrollment schools, along with TAMU.

The number of quality high school graduates in Texas has exploded in the last decade ... since tu can't expand, and no other big state school has stepped up to produce a competitive educational experience to TAMU and tu, we've just gotten bigger because we can.

My daughter just went through the admissions process, and it absolutely blows me away the quality of student that is not getting into A&M these days.

Quality kids, quality education and quality college experience are still the norm at TAMU, regardless of the total enrollment.
Charpie
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FredMc92 said:

I wouldn't want my kid to go to A&M now. 53K undergrads? That's idiotic.
Were you top 10 percent of your class?

You probably couldn't get into A&M by the standards they have now.
GoAgs92
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Not a diploma mill.

diploma mill is easy to get into and easy to graduate from, A&M is neither.
FredMc92
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Charpie said:

FredMc92 said:

I wouldn't want my kid to go to A&M now. 53K undergrads? That's idiotic.
Were you top 10 percent of your class?

You probably couldn't get into A&M by the standards they have now.
Yeah, I was top 10%.

Not sure what that has to do with anything.
bmks270
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Yes.
Approximately 70% acceptance rate.
I'm shocked the engineering school
still ranks as high as it does.
lb3
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No!

The 2018 College Station enrollment was a smaller percentage of the Texas population than was the 1980 enrollment.
BoDog
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Went private for our oldest. Best decision we have made.
Texasyankee
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Yes.

Got asked what a train engine was by a student.

Also, have had to tell several that their hygiene needed to be improved and that clothes need to be washed.
Duncan Idaho
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mccjames said:

Where are you coming up with that number?

Undergrad is 53k

tu is 41K

A&M has been pushed by the state because we have land and space to expand. Texas has neither, white creek apartments are the same size as tu Campus!

However my daughter class of 23 says it is way smaller in feel than tu and she is always amazed at how many people she knows in her 1 1/2 years on campus even with COVID.


Every school is what you make, she has a friend transferring from a 5k population school because she just didn't feel she made friends or fit in. She figured she would have to find some group she fit with this many people.




Moving the business school across the tracks combined with the cohort based programs did a lot to make the school feel smaller.


Duncan Idaho
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A&m isn't a diploma mill but it isn't as prestigious as it was but it is harder to get admitted now.


Those seem contradictory but they aren't.

warrington74
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Never understood this principle

Why do smaller classes produce better graduates. I think that if kids can do the work there should not be an enrollment max. Kids want to got i A&M and as long as we provide them with the same quality classes, then they get a quality degree. No reason we shouldn't be 100k undergraduate. Education leads to better work force. College teaches kids to live on their own, manage their time, and learn.
histag10
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Trade school does that as well. As does entering the workforce at 18 and becoming an adult.

A college degree isnt the only way to be a productive member of society, and education isnt the only factor in having a better workforce. (There are plenty of college grads who are not helping the workforce). Not everyone is cut out for college. Just like not everyone is cut out for A&M. Every non profit school has a cap they wont exceed on enrollment. Some schools have to enforce that, and some never get close to it.

By not limiting enrollment, we would basically become University of Phoenix (and other for profit schools). - though it seems we are heading in that direction anyways.
agdad021
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No it's not - try getting into Mays if your aren't top 10% - it will be very difficult - go to college confidential and read the stats of kids that didn't get in and have to take another route in - tell that to the 4th and 5th generation parents that have smart kids but graduated 12% so they get a soft rejection and have to go to another school, go to the on campus jobs fairs and look at the hundreds of employers wanting to hire A&M grads - those companies don't go to diploma mills - Texas is just bigger and A&M is growing to get the top kids of a bigger pool.
Bogdonovich
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If it's true of aTm, it's true of all schools.
Dr. Nefario
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Anyone who says A&M is a diploma mill doesn't know what a diploma mill is.

Diploma mills accept and graduate literally anyone willing to pay. There is no acceptance criteria; classes and grades, if they exist, are just for show and don't mean anything. Diplomas are sold, not earned. A&M, on the other hand, is difficult to get into and even more difficult stay in.

The number of students that are accepted is irrelevant if the standards remain high.
Nonregdrummer09
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No. A&M just reports their numbers in very odd ways. (Maybe to get more application fees) but they report every applicant who is offered ANY kind of admission (meaning gateway, team, satellite schools, etc.) Main campus admittance is between 40-47% depending on the year. For example, t-sips have similar programs to A&M but only report Austin campus admittance.
tcfitz3
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Students who want to go to A&M know it as it is - they have friends there, and they know if they will find friends and fit in. Huge schools are, imho, only accessible through groups, whether it be Greek fraternity/sorority, Corps, MSC, other student organizations, churches, major, etc. You can't just decide in grade 10 or 11 you suddenly want to be an Aggie - you have to be disciplined and far-thinking to make it. I know I'd get in today because I was a National Merit Scholar and no. 2 in my class. And I am proud to say both of my kids could have gone because it was their goal (and ours) to be eligible. They went other places and had great experiences. But A&M is different and likely to remain so. It's wonderful for those who make the choice and prove they are eligible. But there are a lot of other solid choices too. We should be proud of the amazing job done with so many students.

In my day many were certain women would destroy the Spirit, but they strengthened it. They were sure more than 20K students would ruin the atmosphere. Wrong again.

I'm proud of what we did in my day. ANd I'm very proud of the current student body. Be proud! Whoop!
McInnis80
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lb3 said:

No!

The 2018 College Station enrollment was a smaller percentage of the Texas population than was the 1980 enrollment.
The big problem in Texas there only two state schools that are members of the AAU, UT and A&M. California has 7 UC schools that are AAU members. Until we get the state schools such as Tech, UH, UTD and Texas State to up their game there is going to be pressure on A&M to keep growing.
Get Off My Lawn
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Diploma Mill to me references the quality of graduate, not the number of degrees.

A&M is bifurcated: some degrees are still useful and indicative of capabilities/skills that employers care about, while others are nearly meaningless. And yes: it's pretty well delineated by B.S. vs B.A. The liberal arts branch is the (growing) diploma mill.
Texker
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Mine was a transfer acceptance in BioMed and is now a Sr. It was extremely challenging to get accepted as a transfer especially in a smaller program like BioMed. There have been growing pains in the school so not perfect(what is?), but I think if you ask the kid they would say it's been worth the effort so far. They have to work hard to keep up. Really hard. The program has incredible resources and relationships and is highly recruited. So as far as BioMed is concerned, A&M isn't a diploma mill. Not even close.
Gilligan
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A&M isn't a diploma mill, but college degrees are getting watered down IMO.

Too many degree plans out there and and still working as a Barista with a crap load of debt.

To top it off I just got a tuition bill for our middle child for $1400 for his "graduate internship class!" Seriously, the school charges for my son to work at an engineering firm over the summer. ARGH!!!! <end rant>
histag10
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Gilligan said:

A&M isn't a diploma mill, but college degrees are getting watered down IMO.

Too many degree plans out there and and still working as a Barista with a crap load of debt.

To top it off I just got a tuition bill for our middle child for $1400 for his "graduate internship class!" Seriously, the school charges for my son to work at an engineering firm over the summer. ARGH!!!! <end rant>


I mean, he gets credit for it, and most engineering majors seemed to get scholarships to cover the cost/help pay for housing (assuming they applied for scholarships)
Gilligan
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Yes he's received scholarships and grants, but does that warrant charging $1400 for a class where's he's working for another company.

We're very thankful that he's working and getting paid.
histag10
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He could always do an internship where he doesnt get credit for it, and then you would just pay 1400 (possibly more) for a different course.

They charge for it because it is my understanding that they still have to turn some stuff into the university for their internship, including a report (I believe) of what they did and what they learned.
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