Damning criticism of Chicago and why Illinois lost the Bears

5,825 Views | 53 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by Phatbob
Backyard Gator
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Quote:

Chicago lost the Bears this week. A team that's been in the city since 1921.

They didn't lose them to a bigger market or a better deal. The Bears decided they'd rather be a tenant in Indiana than deal with Illinois for one more year.

Think about how badly you have to run a place for that to be the smart move.

They lost them for two reasons.

The people running Illinois would rather villainize a builder than keep one. And they're bad at their jobs.

[Do not copy/paste a long article. A few paragraphs are fine to make your point, along with a link for those who want to read the entire original source -- Staff]

Ag87H2O
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This is the modern progressive Democrat Party in a nutshell. You can't trust them to manage anything.
Trajan88
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Would not be surprised if fat ass Pritz is holed up in his mansion ... on a bender, stuffing his pie hole w/ Italian beefs and Chicago dogs.
91AggieLawyer
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Quote:

But be smart for a second. Almost every NFL city throws in public money for a stadium. Not charity. The return is real. Tourism, hotels, restaurants, jobs, game days, property tax on a huge development. The math works.


Sorry, but this statement is just wrong in MOST cases. It may be true in this instance, but it isn't almost anywhere else. The fact is that the actual money that comes into the city through tax and other revenues is far less than it would be if the same area was developed for commercial and/or industrial purposes. In some cases, residential would suffice. FAR more jobs; FAR more commerce; and FAR better overall return on investment. There are only so many people that go to work each day at Cowboys Stadium and fewer at the AgBarn in the offseason. 250+ workdays for retail, commercial, and industrial spaces in that area would employ thousands -- and a large percentage at much higher wages.

It isn't just employment. As we're seeing in Dallas, city owned and financed sports arenas can end up being bad news 10, 15, 20 years later as teams decide they want something newer. Then, what do you do with it? Irving had to pay to tear down Texas Stadium, Atlanta the Georgia Dome and other cities are stuck with a paid-for facility that just sits there: St. Louis with the TWA whatever its called this week. Even if events happen, the facility never would have been built SOLELY for these events. Whenever you're accounting for an asset, if that asset has disposition costs, you have to include that in any rate of return calculation.

On a year-to-year level, it rarely makes sense for cities to invest and on a multi-year/life of the facility level it NEVER makes sense. Ironically, economists don't agree on much of anything but they do seem to agree that public financed sports arenas are all bad ideas.

With all that said, Chicago, while not necessarily an exception here, already had the Bears and a plan on the table to keep them.
Prosperdick
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Quote:

You pay $6,285 a year in property taxes, double the $2,969 national average

They're idiots for sure but reading this sure stung. We're getting raped in Texas in property taxes.
flown-the-coop
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You think Arlington, TX is regretting their investment?
Little Rock Ag
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The most irritating thing for the Chicago politicians will be that the new stadium will be probably no further than a mile or so from the Illinois state line. They'll be able to look to the east and see it gleaming, just out of reach.
1939
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Sure but those low property tax states get it in other ways like state income taxes.
Ag with kids
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91AggieLawyer said:

Quote:

But be smart for a second. Almost every NFL city throws in public money for a stadium. Not charity. The return is real. Tourism, hotels, restaurants, jobs, game days, property tax on a huge development. The math works.


Sorry, but this statement is just wrong in MOST cases. It may be true in this instance, but it isn't almost anywhere else. The fact is that the actual money that comes into the city through tax and other revenues is far less than it would be if the same area was developed for commercial and/or industrial purposes. In some cases, residential would suffice. FAR more jobs; FAR more commerce; and FAR better overall return on investment. There are only so many people that go to work each day at Cowboys Stadium and fewer at the AgBarn in the offseason. 250+ workdays for retail, commercial, and industrial spaces in that area would employ thousands -- and a large percentage at much higher wages.

It isn't just employment. As we're seeing in Dallas, city owned and financed sports arenas can end up being bad news 10, 15, 20 years later as teams decide they want something newer. Then, what do you do with it? Irving had to pay to tear down Texas Stadium, Atlanta the Georgia Dome and other cities are stuck with a paid-for facility that just sits there: St. Louis with the TWA whatever its called this week. Even if events happen, the facility never would have been built SOLELY for these events. Whenever you're accounting for an asset, if that asset has disposition costs, you have to include that in any rate of return calculation.

On a year-to-year level, it rarely makes sense for cities to invest and on a multi-year/life of the facility level it NEVER makes sense. Ironically, economists don't agree on much of anything but they do seem to agree that public financed sports arenas are all bad ideas.

With all that said, Chicago, while not necessarily an exception here, already had the Bears and a plan on the table to keep them.

Guess which part of the bolded would NEVER happen...

JFC...no one was turning that area where JerryWorld is into some deluxe area...it was central Arlington and semi-sketchy. There was no retail/commercial/industrial **** going anywhere in that area.

JerryWorld made that area better.

And I ****ING HATE Jerry...
You can turn off signatures, btw
AggieEP
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AggieLawyer is right that teams and cities talk about fantastical economic development from stadium projects that usually doesn't manifest.

However, he's ignoring the fact that the calculus is much different when a city faces completely losing a team. The loss of economic activity from losing the Bears is something that will be felt in Illinois.

Doesn't mean I agree in all cases with teams holding cities hostage for public funding, but the cities have to be careful when they play hardball so you don't lose the team entirely.

There is a reason Seattle wants an NBA team back, they found out the hard way that it was probably a better idea to update Key Arena rather than run the Sonics out of town.
Ag with kids
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AggieEP said:

AggieLawyer is right that teams and cities talk about fantastical economic development from stadium projects that usually doesn't manifest.

However, he's ignoring the fact that the calculus is much different when a city faces completely losing a team. The loss of economic activity from losing the Bears is something that will be felt in Illinois.

Doesn't mean I agree in all cases with teams holding cities hostage for public funding, but the cities have to be careful when they play hardball so you don't lose the team entirely.

There is a reason Seattle wants an NBA team back, they found out the hard way that it was probably a better idea to update Key Arena rather than run the Sonics out of town.

Spurs still would have beat them in Seattle.
You can turn off signatures, btw
flown-the-coop
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And Chicago ain't going nowhere. The Plan just keeps cycling and certain folks get rich and others think they can get rich but really just pay taxes.
Ag with kids
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flown-the-coop said:

You think Arlington, TX is regretting their investment?

Arlington...

The home of the DALLAS Cowboys and the TEXAS Rangers?

Nah...
You can turn off signatures, btw
flown-the-coop
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Concerts, conventions, f1 races, World Cup match, college tournaments, on and on. Terrible decision.

They are getting these partnerships right a lot more than they are getting them wrong.
AggieVictor10
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Fat politicians.
“…What?”

- Joe Biden
Bird Poo
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Dallas just lost the Stars to Plano.

The Mavericks are moving out as well but still within the Dallas zip code.

Jerry Jones was smart to avoid the dumbass Dallas city council's BS.

Dem cities are worthless

FIDO*98*
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91AggieLawyer said:

Quote:

But be smart for a second. Almost every NFL city throws in public money for a stadium. Not charity. The return is real. Tourism, hotels, restaurants, jobs, game days, property tax on a huge development. The math works.


Sorry, but this statement is just wrong in MOST cases. It may be true in this instance, but it isn't almost anywhere else. The fact is that the actual money that comes into the city through tax and other revenues is far less than it would be if the same area was developed for commercial and/or industrial purposes. In some cases, residential would suffice. FAR more jobs; FAR more commerce; and FAR better overall return on investment. There are only so many people that go to work each day at Cowboys Stadium and fewer at the AgBarn in the offseason. 250+ workdays for retail, commercial, and industrial spaces in that area would employ thousands -- and a large percentage at much higher wages.

It isn't just employment. As we're seeing in Dallas, city owned and financed sports arenas can end up being bad news 10, 15, 20 years later as teams decide they want something newer. Then, what do you do with it? Irving had to pay to tear down Texas Stadium, Atlanta the Georgia Dome and other cities are stuck with a paid-for facility that just sits there: St. Louis with the TWA whatever its called this week. Even if events happen, the facility never would have been built SOLELY for these events. Whenever you're accounting for an asset, if that asset has disposition costs, you have to include that in any rate of return calculation.

On a year-to-year level, it rarely makes sense for cities to invest and on a multi-year/life of the facility level it NEVER makes sense. Ironically, economists don't agree on much of anything but they do seem to agree that public financed sports arenas are all bad ideas.

With all that said, Chicago, while not necessarily an exception here, already had the Bears and a plan on the table to keep them.


Show me the example of a city that lost their sports franchise and turned the area into an economic hot zone
HunterAggie
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flown-the-coop said:

Concerts, conventions, f1 races, World Cup match, college tournaments, on and on. Terrible decision.

They are getting these partnerships right a lot more than they are getting them wrong.


And an identity built around sports and tourism.

Arlington.
HunterAggie

The Elko Era is in Action
SociallyConditionedAg
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91AggieLawyer said:

Quote:

But be smart for a second. Almost every NFL city throws in public money for a stadium. Not charity. The return is real. Tourism, hotels, restaurants, jobs, game days, property tax on a huge development. The math works.


Sorry, but this statement is just wrong in MOST cases. It may be true in this instance, but it isn't almost anywhere else. The fact is that the actual money that comes into the city through tax and other revenues is far less than it would be if the same area was developed for commercial and/or industrial purposes. In some cases, residential would suffice. FAR more jobs; FAR more commerce; and FAR better overall return on investment. There are only so many people that go to work each day at Cowboys Stadium and fewer at the AgBarn in the offseason. 250+ workdays for retail, commercial, and industrial spaces in that area would employ thousands -- and a large percentage at much higher wages.

It isn't just employment. As we're seeing in Dallas, city owned and financed sports arenas can end up being bad news 10, 15, 20 years later as teams decide they want something newer. Then, what do you do with it? Irving had to pay to tear down Texas Stadium, Atlanta the Georgia Dome and other cities are stuck with a paid-for facility that just sits there: St. Louis with the TWA whatever its called this week. Even if events happen, the facility never would have been built SOLELY for these events. Whenever you're accounting for an asset, if that asset has disposition costs, you have to include that in any rate of return calculation.

On a year-to-year level, it rarely makes sense for cities to invest and on a multi-year/life of the facility level it NEVER makes sense. Ironically, economists don't agree on much of anything but they do seem to agree that public financed sports arenas are all bad ideas.

With all that said, Chicago, while not necessarily an exception here, already had the Bears and a plan on the table to keep them.

Great analysis. Cities are insane to fund these stadiums.
SociallyConditionedAg
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Ag with kids said:

91AggieLawyer said:

Quote:

But be smart for a second. Almost every NFL city throws in public money for a stadium. Not charity. The return is real. Tourism, hotels, restaurants, jobs, game days, property tax on a huge development. The math works.


Sorry, but this statement is just wrong in MOST cases. It may be true in this instance, but it isn't almost anywhere else. The fact is that the actual money that comes into the city through tax and other revenues is far less than it would be if the same area was developed for commercial and/or industrial purposes. In some cases, residential would suffice. FAR more jobs; FAR more commerce; and FAR better overall return on investment. There are only so many people that go to work each day at Cowboys Stadium and fewer at the AgBarn in the offseason. 250+ workdays for retail, commercial, and industrial spaces in that area would employ thousands -- and a large percentage at much higher wages.

It isn't just employment. As we're seeing in Dallas, city owned and financed sports arenas can end up being bad news 10, 15, 20 years later as teams decide they want something newer. Then, what do you do with it? Irving had to pay to tear down Texas Stadium, Atlanta the Georgia Dome and other cities are stuck with a paid-for facility that just sits there: St. Louis with the TWA whatever its called this week. Even if events happen, the facility never would have been built SOLELY for these events. Whenever you're accounting for an asset, if that asset has disposition costs, you have to include that in any rate of return calculation.

On a year-to-year level, it rarely makes sense for cities to invest and on a multi-year/life of the facility level it NEVER makes sense. Ironically, economists don't agree on much of anything but they do seem to agree that public financed sports arenas are all bad ideas.

With all that said, Chicago, while not necessarily an exception here, already had the Bears and a plan on the table to keep them.

Guess which part of the bolded would NEVER happen...

JFC...no one was turning that area where JerryWorld is into some deluxe area...it was central Arlington and semi-sketchy. There was no retail/commercial/industrial **** going anywhere in that area.

JerryWorld made that area better.

And I ****ING HATE Jerry...

Those were people's homes and businesses and they were stolen from them. It certainly didn't make that area better.
BusterAg
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The city is not space limited. The NFL is franchise limited. You can build a new stadium and develope a different part of town for commercial space.

How much value do you put on the advertising that an NFL team brings? If the city of Chicago were to buy actual TV time, which it does, to encourage visitors and city pride, how much would it cost them to replace the Bears. Hell, Chris Farley in SNL probably brought almost half a $billion to the city over the last three decades all by himself thanks to da Bears.

I think that economists overstate value of teams all the time, but the other side does the same and under values important considerations as well.
Scruffy
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Funny how a billionaire is vilifying other billionaires.
AI Overview +2 Yes, JB Pritzker is a billionaire, with an estimated net worth between $3.7 billion and $4 billion.

Just shows the duplicitous nature of democrat leadership and the blind cognitive disconnect of their followers
Frok
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The economic value of having a new stadium for a sports team is always overstated. The value is more in the pride and fun of having a team.
LOYAL AG
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SociallyConditionedAg said:

91AggieLawyer said:

Quote:

But be smart for a second. Almost every NFL city throws in public money for a stadium. Not charity. The return is real. Tourism, hotels, restaurants, jobs, game days, property tax on a huge development. The math works.


Sorry, but this statement is just wrong in MOST cases. It may be true in this instance, but it isn't almost anywhere else. The fact is that the actual money that comes into the city through tax and other revenues is far less than it would be if the same area was developed for commercial and/or industrial purposes. In some cases, residential would suffice. FAR more jobs; FAR more commerce; and FAR better overall return on investment. There are only so many people that go to work each day at Cowboys Stadium and fewer at the AgBarn in the offseason. 250+ workdays for retail, commercial, and industrial spaces in that area would employ thousands -- and a large percentage at much higher wages.

It isn't just employment. As we're seeing in Dallas, city owned and financed sports arenas can end up being bad news 10, 15, 20 years later as teams decide they want something newer. Then, what do you do with it? Irving had to pay to tear down Texas Stadium, Atlanta the Georgia Dome and other cities are stuck with a paid-for facility that just sits there: St. Louis with the TWA whatever its called this week. Even if events happen, the facility never would have been built SOLELY for these events. Whenever you're accounting for an asset, if that asset has disposition costs, you have to include that in any rate of return calculation.

On a year-to-year level, it rarely makes sense for cities to invest and on a multi-year/life of the facility level it NEVER makes sense. Ironically, economists don't agree on much of anything but they do seem to agree that public financed sports arenas are all bad ideas.

With all that said, Chicago, while not necessarily an exception here, already had the Bears and a plan on the table to keep them.

Great analysis. Cities are insane to fund these stadiums.


It's not a great analysis, it's severely flawed in that it's based on the false assumption that the cities in question have two viable alternatives for the area in question. Not sure you can say that about really any of these stadium deals that end up getting done. That's been pointed out about Arlington specifically where the new stadium was put in a pretty rundown area but the reality is the areas chosen have nothing going for them, they aren't tearing down an upscale neighborhood to build a stadium. It's typically the stadium or economic blight.

Chicago, Cook County and the state of Illinois have lost a significant private enterprise that has poured billions into the their tax coffers over the years and would have continued to do so. This is as much of an L as it was when AOC crowed about blocking Amazon from setting up shop in her district. They crow about stopping those evil billionaires…from creating all those construction jobs and whatever else pops up in the wake of these facilities. It's horrible policy.

This is EXACTLY the vision of the Founding Fathers when they created a loosely affiliated union of states that could compete with each other, both politically and economically. Grimes County is closing in on securing the chip fab that SpaceX/Tesla are going to build and they're doing it with significant tax incentives for what will become a huge economic win for that county. At its core this is no different.
The federal government was never meant to be this powerful.
Mega Lops
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Harris county/CoH on notice. The Texans have already announced moving their HQ to NW Harris County. No one should be shocked when a new stadium is built next door in Waller County.
doubledog
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Quote:

Pritzker after they left: "I wasn't willing to give up billions of dollars of taxpayer money to give it to a billionaire-owned family or team."


Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker has an estimated net worth of roughly $3.9 billion. Talk about hypocrisy.
Logos Stick
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I love to see libs run cities into the dirt.

Conservatives need to move.
Danny Vermin
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As someone who was an Arlington kid , and was proud of it, im absolutely thrilled that its now a mecca for the Sports and Entertainment world. That area was nothing but wasteland and shady. There is a reason the residents will agree happily for anything. They are on the map. I can guarantee that if the Stars or Mavs wanted to build an arena in the area that it would get voted in by a huge margin.
#FJB
ts5641
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Dems keep creating hellholes, move out of them and create new hellholes. They're so ****ing dense and stupid. They just can't see that cities have been ruined by leftists. There isn't a big city in America worth a **** now.
The Dallas Stars realized this as well.
GDBC
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Prosperdick said:

Quote:

You pay $6,285 a year in property taxes, double the $2,969 national average

They're idiots for sure but reading this sure stung. We're getting raped in Texas in property taxes.

ARE YOU RAPED ON STATE INCOME TAX ?
Funky Winkerbean
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ts5641 said:

Dems keep creating hellholes, move out of them and create new hellholes. They're so ****ing dense and stupid. They just can't see that cities have been ruined by leftists. There isn't a big city in America worth a **** now.
The Dallas Stars realized this as well.


It's literally every city in America. The only variation is to what degree it's implemented. It's why I've concluded that the only fix is collapse.
Ag with kids
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SociallyConditionedAg said:

Ag with kids said:

91AggieLawyer said:

Quote:

But be smart for a second. Almost every NFL city throws in public money for a stadium. Not charity. The return is real. Tourism, hotels, restaurants, jobs, game days, property tax on a huge development. The math works.


Sorry, but this statement is just wrong in MOST cases. It may be true in this instance, but it isn't almost anywhere else. The fact is that the actual money that comes into the city through tax and other revenues is far less than it would be if the same area was developed for commercial and/or industrial purposes. In some cases, residential would suffice. FAR more jobs; FAR more commerce; and FAR better overall return on investment. There are only so many people that go to work each day at Cowboys Stadium and fewer at the AgBarn in the offseason. 250+ workdays for retail, commercial, and industrial spaces in that area would employ thousands -- and a large percentage at much higher wages.

It isn't just employment. As we're seeing in Dallas, city owned and financed sports arenas can end up being bad news 10, 15, 20 years later as teams decide they want something newer. Then, what do you do with it? Irving had to pay to tear down Texas Stadium, Atlanta the Georgia Dome and other cities are stuck with a paid-for facility that just sits there: St. Louis with the TWA whatever its called this week. Even if events happen, the facility never would have been built SOLELY for these events. Whenever you're accounting for an asset, if that asset has disposition costs, you have to include that in any rate of return calculation.

On a year-to-year level, it rarely makes sense for cities to invest and on a multi-year/life of the facility level it NEVER makes sense. Ironically, economists don't agree on much of anything but they do seem to agree that public financed sports arenas are all bad ideas.

With all that said, Chicago, while not necessarily an exception here, already had the Bears and a plan on the table to keep them.

Guess which part of the bolded would NEVER happen...

JFC...no one was turning that area where JerryWorld is into some deluxe area...it was central Arlington and semi-sketchy. There was no retail/commercial/industrial **** going anywhere in that area.

JerryWorld made that area better.

And I ****ING HATE Jerry...

Those were people's homes and businesses and they were stolen from them. It certainly didn't make that area better.

Oh I agree the people got ****ed on that deal. I lived there when it happened. But, that part of Arlington was REALLY run down. It's a better area now. Except for those people that lived there.
You can turn off signatures, btw
YouBet
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Ag with kids said:

SociallyConditionedAg said:

Ag with kids said:

91AggieLawyer said:

Quote:

But be smart for a second. Almost every NFL city throws in public money for a stadium. Not charity. The return is real. Tourism, hotels, restaurants, jobs, game days, property tax on a huge development. The math works.


Sorry, but this statement is just wrong in MOST cases. It may be true in this instance, but it isn't almost anywhere else. The fact is that the actual money that comes into the city through tax and other revenues is far less than it would be if the same area was developed for commercial and/or industrial purposes. In some cases, residential would suffice. FAR more jobs; FAR more commerce; and FAR better overall return on investment. There are only so many people that go to work each day at Cowboys Stadium and fewer at the AgBarn in the offseason. 250+ workdays for retail, commercial, and industrial spaces in that area would employ thousands -- and a large percentage at much higher wages.

It isn't just employment. As we're seeing in Dallas, city owned and financed sports arenas can end up being bad news 10, 15, 20 years later as teams decide they want something newer. Then, what do you do with it? Irving had to pay to tear down Texas Stadium, Atlanta the Georgia Dome and other cities are stuck with a paid-for facility that just sits there: St. Louis with the TWA whatever its called this week. Even if events happen, the facility never would have been built SOLELY for these events. Whenever you're accounting for an asset, if that asset has disposition costs, you have to include that in any rate of return calculation.

On a year-to-year level, it rarely makes sense for cities to invest and on a multi-year/life of the facility level it NEVER makes sense. Ironically, economists don't agree on much of anything but they do seem to agree that public financed sports arenas are all bad ideas.

With all that said, Chicago, while not necessarily an exception here, already had the Bears and a plan on the table to keep them.

Guess which part of the bolded would NEVER happen...

JFC...no one was turning that area where JerryWorld is into some deluxe area...it was central Arlington and semi-sketchy. There was no retail/commercial/industrial **** going anywhere in that area.

JerryWorld made that area better.

And I ****ING HATE Jerry...

Those were people's homes and businesses and they were stolen from them. It certainly didn't make that area better.

Oh I agree the people got ****ed on that deal. I lived there when it happened. But, that part of Arlington was REALLY run down. It's a better area now. Except for those people that lived there.

I don't know man. Have you seen offsite parking prices on game days for Cowboys? The locals might be making their annual revenue / income on just the 10 home games they play.
WallyWonka
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91AggieLawyer said:

Quote:

But be smart for a second. Almost every NFL city throws in public money for a stadium. Not charity. The return is real. Tourism, hotels, restaurants, jobs, game days, property tax on a huge development. The math works.


Sorry, but this statement is just wrong in MOST cases. It may be true in this instance, but it isn't almost anywhere else. The fact is that the actual money that comes into the city through tax and other revenues is far less than it would be if the same area was developed for commercial and/or industrial purposes. In some cases, residential would suffice. FAR more jobs; FAR more commerce; and FAR better overall return on investment. There are only so many people that go to work each day at Cowboys Stadium and fewer at the AgBarn in the offseason. 250+ workdays for retail, commercial, and industrial spaces in that area would employ thousands -- and a large percentage at much higher wages.

It isn't just employment. As we're seeing in Dallas, city owned and financed sports arenas can end up being bad news 10, 15, 20 years later as teams decide they want something newer. Then, what do you do with it? Irving had to pay to tear down Texas Stadium, Atlanta the Georgia Dome and other cities are stuck with a paid-for facility that just sits there: St. Louis with the TWA whatever its called this week. Even if events happen, the facility never would have been built SOLELY for these events. Whenever you're accounting for an asset, if that asset has disposition costs, you have to include that in any rate of return calculation.

On a year-to-year level, it rarely makes sense for cities to invest and on a multi-year/life of the facility level it NEVER makes sense. Ironically, economists don't agree on much of anything but they do seem to agree that public financed sports arenas are all bad ideas.

With all that said, Chicago, while not necessarily an exception here, already had the Bears and a plan on the table to keep them.


I'm uninformed and do not know if you're correct or not.

My question is, with these sports venue developments you always have other developments (i.e., hospitality, restaurants, retail, mixed-use, etc.) following them. With the hospitality, you have some sort of economic development/hotel-motel taxes that are included in the room rates.

Again, I don't have metrics in front of me, but if the municipality gets the sports franchise to sign a long-term deal (i.e., it depends on the contract), you'd think they'd get a sufficient return on investment.

Could an issue with the Chicago vs. Indiana deal be a combination of security/safety, location of players homes and tax/security implications, etc......?

Prosperdick
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GDBC said:

Prosperdick said:

Quote:

You pay $6,285 a year in property taxes, double the $2,969 national average

They're idiots for sure but reading this sure stung. We're getting raped in Texas in property taxes.

ARE YOU RAPED ON STATE INCOME TAX ?

No but once I have my house paid off free and clear I'd still be paying over $1,000 a month for the "privilege" of owning it.

Just because Illinois sucks doesn't mean Texas should keep over-valuing properties to game the system but this is off-topic so I'll move on.
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