... with no military experience.

Hard to believe, but from 1789 to 1909, we only had four presidents with no military experience - John Adams, JQ Adams, Martin Van Buren and Grover Cleveland. It was practically a prerequisite.

From 1909 to 1945, none of the presidents had any miliary experience.

Starting with Truman, all presidents had World War II experience (or right after for Carter) up to George Bush.

Since 1993, only W. had any military background, and that was Texas Air National Guard.

The trend could simply mean we haven't had a big war and so not that many veterans. But recent candidates like John McCain, Al Gore and Bob Dole did not get a bump from their service which seemed more distinguished than the man who bat them.

Seems like things are trending towards Vance being the 28 nominee so things will likely change at least

Military was the primary source of leadership for many, up until the 1900s.

For some, JFK, and people like McCain and John Kerry... and W (mentioned) their military service was little more than a CV/Resume builder and checkmark for political advancement.

It makes sense. Participation in the military has decreased significantly since the end of Vietnam. Most of had family members who served in the war or who served afterward. Vietnam changed that.

DallasAg 94 said:

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Military was the primary source of leadership for many, up until the 1900s.

For some, JFK, and people like McCain and John Kerry... and W (mentioned) their military service was little more than a CV/Resume builder and checkmark for political advancement.

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JFK, McCain, and Kerry all nearly died in the service, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it was just a resume builder

No president, before Trump, (if I'm not mistaken) had any business experience. I would say that is more important and relevant than military experience.

Military experience does not always play out...

U.S. Grant, arguably the top general (either side) of the Civil War (3 army surrenders, no defeats etc) and one of the worst presidents (too naive of the political arena).

Zach Taylor, (like Grant) good general, poor president (although he did die in office).

PaulsBunions said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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Military was the primary source of leadership for many, up until the 1900s.

For some, JFK, and people like McCain and John Kerry... and W (mentioned) their military service was little more than a CV/Resume builder and checkmark for political advancement.

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JFK, McCain, and Kerry all nearly died in the service, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it was just a resume builder

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Yeah, I would agree with W, but not the others. McCain and Kerry were Silver Star recipients. McCain a POW for 5 1/2 years. Kennedy, the Navy Medal for heroism and a Purple Heart.

PaulsBunions said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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Military was the primary source of leadership for many, up until the 1900s.

For some, JFK, and people like McCain and John Kerry... and W (mentioned) their military service was little more than a CV/Resume builder and checkmark for political advancement.

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JFK, McCain, and Kerry all nearly died in the service, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it was just a resume builder

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As information about JFK has been revealed, the circumstances that led up to his "Profiles in Courage" came about because he was socially promoted and led a PT boat that was in safe waters , and his poor navigation led him towards enemy waters and ultimately he put his boat in danger. Many recent docs indicate his heroic story was largely fabricated.

McCain, from what I understand was such a poor student that he was only retained because bith his father and grandfather were Admirals in the Navy.

Kerry, from what I understand was not supposed to be near conflict and his "purple heart" was well documented. His service was a step towards politics and his peers came out strongly against him to derail his campaign for president.

I thank them for their service, but all 3 were from very affluent families and their service was pursued solely for political advancement.

Quote:

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Many recent docs indicate his heroic story was largely fabricated.

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I don't know enough about how his boat came to be attacked and sunk to comment (I will say that the whole point of the PT boats was to put themselves into harm's way against superior forces) but once he and his men were in that situation, his personal actions to make sure the crew was rescued were extraordinary.

He personally towed one of his crewmen who had been badly burned for 3.5 miles, a four hour swim, by a strap that Kennedy held in his teeth.

I would agree they were from prominent families and entered the service as a CV builder (Al Gore too).

But that doesn't exclude whether they behaved heroically once in the service.

Years later, there were those who criticized some of those commendations. But I give greater weight to the CO who wrote the recommendation at the time than those taking pop shots decades later.

rocky the dog said:

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No president, before Trump, (if I'm not mistaken) had any business experience. I would say that is more important and relevant than military experience.

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Huh? Both HW and W were businessmen. Carter as well.

doubledog said:

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Military experience does not always play out...

U.S. Grant, arguably the top general (either side) of the Civil War (3 army surrenders, no defeats etc) and one of the worst presidents (too naive of the political arena).

Zach Taylor, (like Grant) good general, poor president (although he did die in office).

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And Grant was pretty much a failure in life before the Civil War.

DallasAg 94 said:

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PaulsBunions said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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Military was the primary source of leadership for many, up until the 1900s.

For some, JFK, and people like McCain and John Kerry... and W (mentioned) their military service was little more than a CV/Resume builder and checkmark for political advancement.

---

JFK, McCain, and Kerry all nearly died in the service, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it was just a resume builder

---

As information about JFK has been revealed, the circumstances that led up to his "Profiles in Courage" came about because he was socially promoted and led a PT boat that was in safe waters , and his poor navigation led him towards enemy waters and ultimately he put his boat in danger. Many recent docs indicate his heroic story was largely fabricated.

McCain, from what I understand was such a poor student that he was only retained because bith his father and grandfather were Admirals in the Navy.

Kerry, from what I understand was not supposed to be near conflict and his "purple heart" was well documented. His service was a step towards politics and his peers came out strongly against him to derail his campaign for president.

I thank them for their service, but all 3 were from very affluent families and their service was pursued solely for political advancement.

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Likely more going on then "solely for political advancement." Hard as it may be to believe. there was a time when the elite, or a very large segment of the elite felt it was their obligation to serve AS members of the upper crust. Some of this was self-serving, ie to dispel the "spoiled rich kid" image. But much was a genuine sense of "paying it back" as people of privilege.

We've strayed very far from that.

This is before the liberals and media made it seem like military leaders were bad people, ill equipped to run things.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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rocky the dog said:

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No president, before Trump, (if I'm not mistaken) had any business experience. I would say that is more important and relevant than military experience.

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Huh? Both HW and W were businessmen. Carter as well.

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HW and W were "oilmen" and not very good ones if the industry scuttlebutt was correct, and Jimmy was a peanut farmer. Not to disparage farming but it is a somewhat different scenario than many businesses.

fc2112 said:

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I would agree they were from prominent families and entered the service as a CV builder (Al Gore too).

But that doesn't exclude whether they behaved heroically once in the service.

Years later, there were those who criticized some of those commendations. But I give greater weight to the CO who wrote the recommendation at the time than those taking pop shots decades later.

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The name and rank on the uniform are not supposed to matter when it comes to awards.

The key word being "supposed." In the regs it states one thing but in practice not so much.

In theory a PFC and a LTC will be awarded the same medal for the same action. But that's not how that works.

DallasAg 94 said:

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PaulsBunions said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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Military was the primary source of leadership for many, up until the 1900s.

For some, JFK, and people like McCain and John Kerry... and W (mentioned) their military service was little more than a CV/Resume builder and checkmark for political advancement.

---

JFK, McCain, and Kerry all nearly died in the service, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it was just a resume builder

---

As information about JFK has been revealed, the circumstances that led up to his "Profiles in Courage" came about because he was socially promoted and led a PT boat that was in safe waters , and his poor navigation led him towards enemy waters and ultimately he put his boat in danger. Many recent docs indicate his heroic story was largely fabricated.

McCain, from what I understand was such a poor student that he was only retained because bith his father and grandfather were Admirals in the Navy.

Kerry, from what I understand was not supposed to be near conflict and his "purple heart" was well documented. His service was a step towards politics and his peers came out strongly against him to derail his campaign for president.

I thank them for their service, but all 3 were from very affluent families and their service was pursued solely for political advancement.

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McCain also launched a missle from the deck of the USS Forrestal that killed 124 sailors, injured about 160 more and destroyed 20 something aircraft, as well as put a US carrier out of commission.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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doubledog said:

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Military experience does not always play out...

U.S. Grant, arguably the top general (either side) of the Civil War (3 army surrenders, no defeats etc) and one of the worst presidents (too naive of the political arena).

Zach Taylor, (like Grant) good general, poor president (although he did die in office).

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And Grant was pretty much a failure in life before the Civil War.

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And while popular for winning the civil war, he was pretty unsuccessful in life after his presidency, dying penniless .

Also, based on most of the recent presidents - if .mil experience is to be considered, I'd rather have presidents with none.

TXAG 05 said:

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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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doubledog said:

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Military experience does not always play out...

U.S. Grant, arguably the top general (either side) of the Civil War (3 army surrenders, no defeats etc) and one of the worst presidents (too naive of the political arena).

Zach Taylor, (like Grant) good general, poor president (although he did die in office).

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And Grant was pretty much a failure in life before the Civil War.

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And while popular for winning the civil war, he was pretty unsuccessful in life after his presidency, dying penniless .

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Funny that happens to a lot of drunks.

We can view things how we want.

Sometimes our personal motivation ultimately puts us in a place we don't expect... and heroism may emerge.

https://www.historynet.com/john-f-kennedys-pt-109-disaster/

In the case of JFK, feel free to read this account, which I'm citing as one example of a different view.

Quote:

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Weeks earlier, Joe Kennedy had taken Bulkeley to lunch and made it clear that command of a PT boat would help his son launch a political career after the war.

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I was as all-in on JFK as you could be. I studied him and selected him for all the reports you do in school. My dad was the yearbook editor in his HS. He dedicated it to JFK while he was president and I have a letter and autographed pic of JFK from the WH. Now, it was probably one of those authorized autographs that are used by presidents, but is still an impressive doc to have.

The story in that link is much more likely how the events played out. It was such a great story if this boy with debilitating health to qualify for military service. Many of the details like him swimming 4 miles while dragging another crewmember are believed to be largely a fabrication and embellishment.

schmellba99 said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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PaulsBunions said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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Military was the primary source of leadership for many, up until the 1900s.

For some, JFK, and people like McCain and John Kerry... and W (mentioned) their military service was little more than a CV/Resume builder and checkmark for political advancement.

---

JFK, McCain, and Kerry all nearly died in the service, I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it was just a resume builder

---

As information about JFK has been revealed, the circumstances that led up to his "Profiles in Courage" came about because he was socially promoted and led a PT boat that was in safe waters , and his poor navigation led him towards enemy waters and ultimately he put his boat in danger. Many recent docs indicate his heroic story was largely fabricated.

McCain, from what I understand was such a poor student that he was only retained because bith his father and grandfather were Admirals in the Navy.

Kerry, from what I understand was not supposed to be near conflict and his "purple heart" was well documented. His service was a step towards politics and his peers came out strongly against him to derail his campaign for president.

I thank them for their service, but all 3 were from very affluent families and their service was pursued solely for political advancement.

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McCain also launched a missle from the deck of the USS Forrestal that killed 124 sailors, injured about 160 more and destroyed 20 something aircraft, as well as put a US carrier out of commission.

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What are you talking about? McCain was in the plane that got hit by the rocket, and he was injured by the first bomb explosion.

If you want to read about sketchy commendations, read up on LBJ's Silver Star. And he wore that service ribbon to the day he died.

I am no apologist for JFK. It is clear, for instance, that his Pulitzer prize winning book was largely written by Ted Sorenson.

But I don't see how the article you cited argues that Kennedy's actions were not heroic.

You said:

Quote:

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Many of the details like him swimming 4 miles while dragging another crewmember are believed to be largely a fabrication and embellishment.

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If anything, the article goes to some length to emphasize JFK's personal heroism:

Quote:

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They set out from the 109 around 1:30 p.m. Kennedy towed McMahon, gripping the strap of the injured man's life jacket in his teeth. The journey took five exhausting hours, as they fought a strong current. Kennedy reached the beach first and collapsed, vomiting salt water.

Worried that McMahon might die from his burns, Kennedy left his crew near sundown to swim into Ferguson Passage, a feeder to Blackett Strait. The men begged him not to take the risk, but he hoped to find a PT boat on a night patrol.

The journey proved harrowing. Stripped to his underwear, Kennedy walked along a coral reef that snaked far out into the sea, perhaps nearly to the strait. Along the way, he lost his bearings, as well as his lantern. At several points, he had to swim blindly in the dark.

Back on Plum Pudding Island, the men had nearly given their commander up for dead when he stumbled across the reef at noon the next day. It was the first of several trips that Kennedy made into Ferguson Passage to find help. Each failed. But his courage earned the lieutenant his men's loyalty for life.

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I've read that article before. I appreciate you linking to it.

fc2112 said:

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If you want to read about sketchy commendations, read up on LBJ's Silver Star. And he wore that service ribbon to the day he died.

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There is nothing about this man that was not sketchy, a truly horrible person.

AnScAggie said:

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fc2112 said:

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If you want to read about sketchy commendations, read up on LBJ's Silver Star. And he wore that service ribbon to the day he died.

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There is nothing about this man that was not sketchy, a truly horrible person.

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And his wife. Complete scum of the earth.

• Al Gore - totally forget he "served". Prolific liar and hypocrite about climate change.
• John Kerry - a literal US traitor.
• John McCain - his hubris helped put healthcare on a ruinous path in this country.
• JFK - would be a Republican in 2025.

I guess of that group JFK is the best veteran, relatively speaking.

fc2112 said:

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The trend could simply mean we haven't had a big war and so not that many veterans. But recent candidates like John McCain, Al Gore and Bob Dole did not get a bump from their service which seemed more distinguished than the man who bat them.

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Al Gore, John McCain and John Kerry were all crap candidates

rocky the dog said:

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No president, before Trump, (if I'm not mistaken) had any business experience. I would say that is more important and relevant than military experience.

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Carter had his peanut farm and military background.

• Bob Dole - his staff picked a disastrous campaign strategy. That dude was actually really, really funny and they made the decision to not play to that during his campaign. He would have had a shot at winning if they let him off the leash.

Quote:

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Carter had his peanut farm and military background.

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How did faming peanuts and his military background help his presidency? Oh, yeah. It was a one-term disaster.

Raising peanuts as opposed to building resorts and buildings is apples to...well...peanuts.

W also owned/managed the Texas Rangers.

Grants' memoires are considered one of the greatest memoires ever written and one of his biggest successes.

JFK was stupid and put his team in a bad situation, he was a Kennedy so they turned him into a hero to help his political idea.

McCain was known to be a screw up that got bailed out several times by his admiral father. The USS Forrestal incident is an example that ended up killing a lot of innocents.

During Vietnam you started seeing a lot of Silver and Bronze stars without Valor, most got the award for doing a good job on paperwork and were nominated by other officers trying to make themselves look better.

Kerry has been caught lying several times about what he did in Vietnam.

You can keep going, most of these presidents were Ivy league graduates that served in low risk military positions to check the box.

Not to take anything away from Vance but he was a journalist in the Marines, not combat tested but 90% of the military these days never goes into combat.

While I do think serving in the military can help develop leadership and help future politicians understand true geopolitical decisions it is not a requirement these days. Trump is able to do it since he developed leadership as a business owner and understands how to run a complex system.