This is a separate thread, but it is very related to our (A&M's) president's trust issue.

The percentage of American's who think college is "very" important is at an all-time low. (35%).

12 years ago, it was 70%.

One of the chief reasons for this decline are the liberal excesses in faculty politicization of curriculum.

This is the problem with a president that is "all in" on Academic Freedom. To many faculty this is a blank check. They pretty much focus on the "freedom" and forget about the "academic".

Fire Welsh.



https://news.gallup.com/poll/695003/perceived-importance-college-hits-new-low.aspx

The US needs a Great Academic Reboot.

for many fields of study, for the over supply of graduates vs the lack of demand for jobs in those fields, for the amount of investment and lack of ROI, college is a scam. people are waking up.

OP is confusing "liberal arts" as Academics.

TheCurl84 said:

---

The US needs a Great Academic Reboot.

---

Which you don't get with Welsh at the helm.

"Academic freedom" at a state funded institution should only exist within the context of academic RESPONSIBILITY. The state's funding + the state's kids = The state's mission & goals.

Unfortunately our 'former students' are suckers for bread & circuses, so as long as the finances look positive who cares if the institution is subverting everything we hold dear? "Oh look! The corps is marching in! All must be right in the world!"

I'd argue the greatest issue is government guaranteed loans. It destroyed any sense of value and scale in academia. What does it matter what school costs? The government has your back! No matter you barely understand how the real world works yet before saddling yourself in 200k in debt. But it is cool. Another sucker right behind signing up after you.

So what happens when you have a sudden glut of literally billions and billions of dollars? Why, you get grifters suckling at those sweet, sweet gubment loans via the futures of our youth. Throw together some PowerPoints and boom, you have a class. There is no mistaking the explosion of degree "offerings" with the advent of student loans increases.

ETA: Just wanted to add that I do truly believe that we NEED , not want, NEED to decouple the government from higher education costs for the future health of our nation. And sooner rather than later. It's not our only problem of course but it is a significant one and getting worse every semester. It's just one of many ticking time bombs we have but I think it's one that will still catch everyone off guard somehow when it goes off…

doubledog said:

---

OP is confusing "liberal arts" as Academics.

---

Not sure what you mean, tbh?

Hell, look at medical school where many professors made DEI etc. a required part of the curriculum.

Is it worse in Liberal arts/education than most majors? Absolutely!

It is the president that sets faculty expectations. And ensures the university is responsive to other stakeholders- students, aggie alumni, and parents. Again, not sure what you are arguing?

ETA-
There was a time, not that long ago, that "even" Sociology was a very reputable academic, even scientific, field. But that was before "action" research, politization, genderization, etc.. It is not that the disciplines are inherently non-academic - just the way many faculty pursue these disciplines.

Fire Welsh!

The value proposition is very bad because a lot of what colleges do today has little or no or even negative value. Junk science, poor research with no applications, ideological indoctrination in the guise of education, education in areas where supply already greatly exceeds demand, etc.

Eliminatus said:

---

I'd argue the greatest issue is government guaranteed loans. It destroyed any sense of value and scale in academia. What does it matter what school costs? The government has your back! No matter you barely understand how the real world works yet before saddling yourself in 200k in debt. But it is cool. Another sucker right behind signing up after you.

So what happens when you have a sudden glut of literally billions and billions of dollars? Why, you get grifters suckling at those sweet, sweet gubment loans via the futures of our youth. Throw together some PowerPoints and boom, you have a class. There is no mistaking the explosion of degree "offerings" with the advent of student loans increases.

ETA: Just wanted to add that I do truly believe that we NEED , not want, NEED to decouple the government from higher education costs for the future health of our nation. And sooner rather than later. It's not our only problem of course but it is a significant one and getting worse every semester. It's just one of many ticking time bombs we have but I think it's one that will still catch everyone off guard somehow when it goes off…

---

It really is this simple.

Remove the govt backing and different majors and colleges have to compete in a free market with other colleges for students and student dollars.

A bank doing a risk analysis for a student loan would most certainly assign much higher risk (and cost) to an English degree than they would an Engineering degree, its common sense. Once that happens, Universities will have to cater their curriculum to the market demand and the less valuable degrees will get less and less resources assigned to them.

TheCurl84 said:

---

The US needs a Great Academic Reboot.

---

This x 20,000

these people like Welsh are destroying universities from within.. we need people that the students and past alumni can trust and have faith In

Over_ed said:

---

This is a separate thread, but it is very related to our (A&M's) president's trust issue.

The percentage of American's who think college is "very" important is at an all-time low. (35%).

12 years ago, it was 70%.

One of the chief reasons for this decline are the liberal excesses in faculty politicization of curriculum.

This is the problem with a president that is "all in" on Academic Freedom. To many faculty this is a blank check. They pretty much focus on the "freedom" and forget about the "academic".

Fire Welsh.



https://news.gallup.com/poll/695003/perceived-importance-college-hits-new-low.aspx

---

Not sure you really squared the circle back to Welsh but I understand your general argument. I actually think that profs are less of an issue as administrators though. Essentially once they guaranteed student loans they cranked up the cost of college and spent it on hiring volumes of administration who don't teach and don't really add much value at all to education.

We are headed for a lot of colleges that will go out of business in the next decade. I would not want to be a small private liberal arts school, the supply/demand curve is way out of whack for them and getting worse.

As for Welsh he's unimpressive. We have had worse but we can certainly do better.

I have changed my opinion on the value of a college degree but it is because I now value trade crafts a lot more and a lot of jobs like comp sci are showing that a degree doesn't really help as many of the best coders learn it in their teen years. I also think people have woken up to the large amount of debt college incurs for many students.

While college was great for my kids, it was because they chose degrees that require college to either enter the field or to learn how to do it. They also went through college on the cheap so they have minimal student loans. A lot of my friends had their kids go trade school and they are thriving and have no debt.

The easy money is what has made college too expensive and incentivised campuses to create a degree for everyone and every interest.

I agree. I don't have any particular animosity toward Welsh, despite my repeated postings. I have worked for worse university presidents. But his handling of this issue (focusing on faculty rather than other stakeholders), his apparent lack of candor, and the unwillingness of his subordinates to follow through -- aren't great endorsements for his leadership.

We can do better.

Since we are talking academic reboot, I have a couple of recommendations.

- If your academic department confers degrees to students who use government backed students loans, and those loans are not paid back within ten years, that department needs to start contributing to resolution of those loans. In other words, if you take government back loans to generate worthless degrees, you need to share in the accountability.


- Henceforth at Burdizzo A&M University, no new faculty candidate will be hired unless that candidate can demonstrate a minimum of five years of work experience in a non-teaching, non-research, position. I don't care if it is banking, engineering, medicine, or sandwich artistry. Our faculty need some experience and associated humility working for a living instead of this closed loop of going straight from the learning environment into teaching.

Covid exposed Learning.

I had a kid convinced he had access to YouTube and any education he wanted. I saw it differently.

He went off to college in '20 and took all his classes locked in a dorm room and asynchronous learning from prepared recorded videos. I saw is more clearly.

My HS and MS kids gave me a glimpse of the school education and I quickly realized they weren't getting much.

If the people teaching don't have a basic knowledge of what they are teaching... you will have kids in the class with far more knowledge on the subject. And that was where my kids found themselves.

doubledog said:

---

OP is confusing "liberal arts" as Academics.

---

Oh there are quite a few other degrees that won't get you a job as well.

oh no said:

---

for many fields of study, for the over supply of graduates vs the lack of demand for jobs in those fields, for the amount of investment and lack of ROI, college is a scam. people are waking up.

---

This country is rampant with poorly educated people waking around with worthless college degrees. Socialists ruin everything they touch.

College has been so devalued, it's crazy. The curriculum has gotten worse, and the cost has gone up an insane amount. It's not worth it any more.

I grew up with college as THE option (class of '07). The majority of my peers in HS went to college

Now I'm talking to my kids about trade schools and community college, but only if they choose a career path that REQUIRES a degree.

Also, the coming AI explosion is going to make this even more true, not less. Most jobs that require a college degree are going to be replaced by AI at some point. Trades where you do things in the real world with your hands are going to be last to go.

Over_ed said:

---

doubledog said:

---

OP is confusing "liberal arts" as Academics.

---

Not sure what you mean, tbh?

Hell, look at medical school where many professors made DEI etc. a required part of the curriculum.

Is it worse in Liberal arts/education than most majors? Absolutely!

It is the president that sets faculty expectations. And ensures the university is responsive to other stakeholders- students, aggie alumni, and parents. Again, not sure what you are arguing?

ETA-
There was a time, not that long ago, that "even" Sociology was a very reputable academic, even scientific, field. But that was before "action" research, politization, genderization, etc.. It is not that the disciplines are inherently non-academic - just the way many faculty pursue these disciplines.

---

Med schools have made DEI required in their admissions criteria

The fact that their degrees are worthless in the marketplace is why they're socialists…. Looking for the taxpayers to support them.

Yeah, if only the fascists with all their jobs paid their fair share of 60% instead of 40% in taxes, we could support having a million more gender studies majors.

Be careful criticizing liberal art degrees. Most lawyers have one and a lot of lawyers are our government leaders.

TexasAggie73 said:

---

Be careful criticizing liberal art degrees. Most lawyers have one and a lot of lawyers are our government leaders.

---

there might be a difference between a philosophy major who then took the LSAT and went to law school vs a gender studies major who is now a part time barista at Starbucks moonlighting as a professional protestor against capitalism and the alarmist issues du jour.

Perhaps the ROI and lack of debt from their degrees, demand for jobs in their field might have something do with it, but how many lawyers exist in our litigious culture is a whole other topic.

Charlie Kirk said it perfectly. College is a scam.

TheCurl84 said:

---

The US needs a Great Academic Reboot.

---

~20 years ago the former Commandant of VMI, Josiah Bunting, wrote a fiction book about what a college should be called An Education for Our Time. It would be nice to see it reprinted.

doubledog said:

---

OP is confusing "liberal arts" as Academics.

---

One of the nightly news stations focused on college graduates unable to find a job and who they do interview, a psychology major.

oh no said:

---

for many fields of study, for the over supply of graduates vs the lack of demand for jobs in those fields, for the amount of investment and lack of ROI, college is a scam. people are waking up.

---

Not a lot of jobs for women's studies and the like. Too many morons still think,"As long as you have a degree no one cares what it's in." Yeah, people actually do care if your degree is in the field they're hiring for. A degree in bull**** didn't do them any good when it comes to you doing your job.

Ulysses90 said:

---

TheCurl84 said:

---

The US needs a Great Academic Reboot.

---

~20 years ago the former Commandant of VMI, Josiah Bunting, wrote a fiction book about what a college should be called An Education for Our Time. It would be nice to see it reprinted.

---

Just paid 11 dollars on ebay for the book. Can't wait to read it.

DallasAg 94 said:

---

Covid exposed Learning.

I had a kid convinced he had access to YouTube and any education he wanted. I saw it differently.

He went off to college in '20 and took all his classes locked in a dorm room and asynchronous learning from prepared recorded videos. I saw is more clearly.

My HS and MS kids gave me a glimpse of the school education and I quickly realized they weren't getting much.

If the people teaching don't have a basic knowledge of what they are teaching... you will have kids in the class with far more knowledge on the subject. And that was where my kids found themselves.

---

If I had to summarize my education intake to getting my degree as an engineer, it would be:

• 10% Professor (being generous here honestly)
• 25% Myself beating my head against textbooks
• 25% Peers
• 40% Youtube Academia in its various forms

I love my alma mater like no other, but education has been turned on its head since even before COVID. How many here can say they had awful professors or they only showed up for test days, etc? I don't think it was so much that we knew more, but more that my profs had conflicting interests for their time and effort. Mainly research. There was more than one semester I fervently wished my tuition dollars went to some specific Youtubers other than TAMU, that is how much I felt the value disparity was at times.

Your last sentence is exactly why online learning CAN be so powerful. (If the learner is capable and disciplined enough of course). You get people that are actually passionate about teaching and its easy to weed out those with poor teaching skills versus those with great ones. Instead of getting saddled with the only prof who is available for your schedule.

Granted, I know I am talking about college level where financial incentives are there to help motivate and seek out material on your own. Grade school level "prepared" material makes me shudder just to think about. Is it just Pearson produced garbage or similar I assume?