Poor, to say the least.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/fear-that-china-rules-the-waves-jolts-u-s-to-pursue-maritime-revival-2c4bd8ab?st=uN3S91&reflink=article_copyURL_share

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Rising tensions with China are prompting Washington to revisit America's roots as a trading nation of the seas.

The Navy became a mighty global fighting force. America's commercial cargo fleet has withered almost to nonexistence.

Now politicians are once again linking national security to a vibrant maritime sectornonmilitary aspects of the seasand the benefits it brings to everything from shipbuilding to logistics chains. Washington is seeking ways to reverse its collapse by tapping examples from other industries, encouraging links with shipbuilding allies and plumbing the writings of America's greatest sea strategist.

No nation has ever successfully ranked as a world naval power without also being a global maritime power. Countries that tried but failed to project seaborne might without robust commercial sea networks include the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany and Spain before the Spanish-American War.

Not long ago, America led the world in sea freight. At the end of World War II, the U.S. commercial marine fleet accounted for about half of the world's cargo-shipping capacity. An American entrepreneur in the 1950s pioneered the shipping container, which revolutionized international commerce.

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A few fun facts:

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U.S. commercial ships today account for less than 1% of the world fleet. U.S. ports are racked by strikes and battles over the type of automation that has supercharged expansion of container terminals across the globe. The Navy struggles to find commercial vessels to support its far-flung operations.

...the U.S. Merchant Marine, a corps of commercial sailors who can assist the Navy in wartime and whose ranks have plunged over recent decades. Government and industry officials estimate the U.S. now has fewer than 10,000 merchant mariners, compared with roughly 50,000 in 1960.

China has more than 5,500 oceangoing merchant vessels in international trade while the U.S. has 80.

Today the U.S. is the world's leading exporter of liquefied natural gas, but doesn't have a single LNG ship in its fleet...

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To try and solve this but it will be a long very expensive journey if it even happens. Seems like by the time we got to any kind of parity technology and space priorities might eclipse the need for massive buildup here but that's just speculation on my part.

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...a piece of legislation recently introduced by Sens. Mark Kelly (D., Ariz.) and Todd Young (R., Ind.) and two House members, the Shipbuilding and Harbor Infrastructure for Prosperity and Security for America Act. If passed, it would be the first major piece of maritime legislation since 1936.

The SHIPS Act, as it is known, aims to revitalize shipbuilding and shipping over more than a decade while rebuilding the merchant marine. It calls for resources and White House-level involvement comparable to policies on energy, semiconductors and aviation.

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AtticusMatlock said:

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What's happening now *is* free enterprise. It is cheaper for foreign companies to build and operate these ships.

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Yep. Function of globalism. This is another area where we have to decide if it's strategically critical that we can't or shouldn't outsource.

The other sectors that should qualify here are pharmaceutical and chip tech. The latter we passed a bill to help close the gap which has so far produced mixed results...at best.

We've done nothing on in-sourcing or near-sourcing pharma that I'm aware of so we remain vulnerable to China on that front.

Also, look into the Jones Act of 1920. It was a protectionist "America First" bill passed which requires American ships and American crews to operate point to point operations in the US. It is outdated and needs a redo.

Also, American shipbuilding and American labor is unionized. Way the hell more expensive than global competitors.

AtticusMatlock said:

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What's happening now *is* free enterprise. It is cheaper for foreign companies to build and operate these ships.

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But why is it cheaper? My guess is that US government interference makes it more expensive for the ships to be flagged US. One example is the Jones Act, mentioned above.

Jabin said:

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AtticusMatlock said:

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What's happening now *is* free enterprise. It is cheaper for foreign companies to build and operate these ships.

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But why is it cheaper? My guess is that US government interference makes it more expensive for the ships to be flagged US. One example is the Jones Act, mentioned above.

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Already stated. Our labor force is the most expensive on the planet. Look at the recent port union strike that is still not fully resolved. Those folks make six figures per year and they want zero automation. Trump supports them now so we will continue to lag the world in port automation meaning we will be less efficient.

Cheaper labor in other countries and lower legal costs and liability are why ships aren't built and flagged in the USA anymore.

I agree it's a security problem and a GDP problem and a skills problem.

Honestly, lawyers, the US legal system and tort need tremendous reform for America to become competitive again in many important areas.

pfo said:

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Cheaper labor in other countries and lower legal costs and liability are why ships aren't built and flagged in the USA anymore.

I agree it's a security problem and a GDP problem and a skills problem.

Honestly, lawyers, the US legal system and tort need tremendous reform for America to become competitive again in many important areas.

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As a "recovering" lawyer, I completely agree. My simple solution for tort reform is to require the losing plaintiff lawyers to pay the costs and fees of the winners. Right now, there's an insufficient downside for plaintiffs' lawyers.

I hate Texas' approach to tort reform. It's just another example of the government trying to micromanage and results in one-size-fits-all solutions to a myriad host of situations. For example, damage caps are unfair to people who are truly damaged far beyond the cap and destroy the incentive for bad actors to clean up their acts.

AtticusMatlock said:

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What's happening now *is* free enterprise. It is cheaper for foreign companies to build and operate these ships.

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And that is a national security issue.

Aggieterri said:

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Probably a lot of American owned ships that are now REGISTERED in foreign countries due to our over the top government regulations and taxes.

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Jones Act. To ship from American port to American port, you have to have an American flagged and American crewed vessel.

Most big shipowners will flag vessels via a flag of convenience (Marshall Islands, Liberia, Bahamas, etc.) where regulations and taxes are low. They're usually crewed by Eastern European officers and South Asian crews. Much cheaper across the board than dealing with the U.S. government. They can generally call on a U.S port and then depart internationally.

Like it or hate it, that's how the Jones Act has involved itself in the last century of the shipping industry. It's been a strange imposition as the industry changed -- especially with the development of containerization and massive technological advancements.

AtticusMatlock said:

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What's happening now *is* free enterprise. It is cheaper for foreign companies to build and operate these ships.

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What we've learned is that a significant number of nations aren't interested in free enterprise. I genuinely think that at Bretton Woods we envisioned a world where we all focused on whatever we each do best and we all got richer as a result with an added bonus of no war because we're all better off than we ever had been. What has actually happened is China has used our emphasis on economic efficiency to improve their standing on the world stage and enrich China in a way that would have never been possible without riding our coattails. In a nutshell we've learned that global free enterprise isn't possible because much of the leadership in other nations simply isn't willing to play along. They're focused on their own power versus making sure their people benefit from the rising tide. Hell we see the exact same thing from Democrats at home.

History will hold our leadership class responsible for hollowing out critical industries to enrich themselves.

I think you nailed it with the exception of limiting American political corruption to the Democrats.

ThunderCougarFalconBird said:

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Aggieterri said:

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Probably a lot of American owned ships that are now REGISTERED in foreign countries due to our over the top government regulations and taxes.

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Jones Act. To ship from American port to American port, you have to have an American flagged and American crewed vessel.

Most big shipowners will flag vessels via a flag of convenience (Marshall Islands, Liberia, Bahamas, etc.) where regulations and taxes are low. They're usually crewed by Eastern European officers and South Asian crews. Much cheaper across the board than dealing with the U.S. government. They can generally call on a U.S port and then depart internationally.

Like it or hate it, that's how the Jones Act has involved itself in the last century of the shipping industry. It's been a strange imposition as the industry changed -- especially with the development of containerization and massive technological advancements.

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The Jones Act killed American Shipbuilding. The current state of affairs is such that all skilled shipbuilding engineering and labor, mainly engineering, has left. We now have to outsource any required expertise, mostly to Korean and Chinese shipyards.

BringJackieBack89 said:

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ThunderCougarFalconBird said:

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Aggieterri said:

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Probably a lot of American owned ships that are now REGISTERED in foreign countries due to our over the top government regulations and taxes.

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Jones Act. To ship from American port to American port, you have to have an American flagged and American crewed vessel.

Most big shipowners will flag vessels via a flag of convenience (Marshall Islands, Liberia, Bahamas, etc.) where regulations and taxes are low. They're usually crewed by Eastern European officers and South Asian crews. Much cheaper across the board than dealing with the U.S. government. They can generally call on a U.S port and then depart internationally.

Like it or hate it, that's how the Jones Act has involved itself in the last century of the shipping industry. It's been a strange imposition as the industry changed -- especially with the development of containerization and massive technological advancements.

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The Jones Act killed American Shipbuilding. The current state of affairs is such that all skilled shipbuilding engineering and labor, mainly engineering, has left. We now have to outsource any required expertise, mostly to Korean and Chinese shipyards.

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Sourcing steel would be a big issue too.

Bazooka Joe said:

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I think you nailed it with the exception of limiting American political corruption to the Democrats.

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I wasn't referring to corruption but rather the Democrat platform of buying votes with taxpayer money that eventually led to a permanent welfare class. Yea, corruption is a two party problem.

Pure and simple - US flagged vessels are expensive. Typical opex on a US flagged tanker is around $29,000 a day while foreign flagged vessels are around $8000-9000 a day. Salaries for US sailors is high and right now with the recent tanker security program bringing 9 (soon to be 10) new US flagged tankers into existence there is a personnel shortage. Captains/CE in this program can be making over 300k a year.

The Jones Act is a whole different conversation but without it the US fleet would disappear almost immediately.

JimmyHouston said:

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Pure and simple - US flagged vessels are expensive. Typical opex on a US flagged tanker is around $29,000 a day while foreign flagged vessels are around $8000-9000 a day. Salaries for US sailors is high and right now with the recent tanker security program bringing 9 (soon to be 10) new US flagged tankers into existence there is a personnel shortage. Captains/CE in this program can be making over 300k a year.

The Jones Act is a whole different conversation but without it the US fleet would disappear almost immediately.

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Can you help us understand what it is about US flagged vessels that make their opex higher than other nations, in addition to labor costs?

If it was just labor costs, couldn't US flagged vessels simply hire non-US persons at lower wages?

This is very interesting and something I know very little about.

Twenty plus years ago I knew someone whose husband was chief engineer for a US cargo ship that was transporting military equipment to Iraq. The ship was moored for weeks(maybe months) in the Mediterranean waiting on Turkey to give approval to unload.. It was creating a logistical headache for the military because the US had so few flagged ships available to ship materiel to war zone. I doubt if the situation has improved.

I am sure regulations and safety oversight are a significant reason there are so few US flagged vessels. What are requirements for shipping military equipment and supplies.

JimmyHouston said:

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The Jones Act is a whole different conversation but without it the US fleet would disappear almost immediately.

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The Jones Act killed American Shipbuilding. The current state of affairs is such that all skilled shipbuilding engineering and labor, mainly engineering, has left. We now have to outsource any required expertise, mostly to Korean and Chinese shipyards.

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Now I'm really confused. Does the Jones act protect or hinder American owned and operated shipping? From what I understand, it helps keep Puerto Rico under our trade thumb and a permanent sh#@hole.

There's some maritime degree from A&M Galveston that is one of the highest paying bachelors degrees you can get in Texas. I found that surprising and I definitely mentioned it to my high school boys. This industry seems like it could be a great opportunity moving forward.

Sure. Salary is a lot of it across the board but you have to remember that in the US there are retirement, health care, and vacation costs that don't exist for Indian or Filipino sailors. Some foreign guys are ok making $2000 a month for a salary - you won't ever get an unlicensed US guy to head out for that kind of money.

Most US vessels engaged in international trade have 75-90 day rotations while the foreign flagged guys are 3-4 months for licensed and 6-9 months for unlicensed.

Maintenance expectations on US flagged ships are a lot more as well. Most US guys want to have multiple spares and order out of a Grainger catalog while the foreign guys are much more willing to "live with what they have" and buy smarter. When there are ME piston pulls or generator overhauls the US guys will request shore assistance while foreign guys will do it themselves.

I am sure you can guess what food costs look like across a US flagged vessel versus one with foreign crews. Quite honestly our US guys have become spoiled compared to their international counterparts.

Young kids with licenses right now can make damn good money - has to be one of the higher paying careers immediately out of school available right now.

Thanks. Very informative.

If you were king of the world, is there anything that you could do to restore a US flagged commercial fleet?

I am not one to argue protection versus hindrance but look at it this way - an MR tanker (50,000 dwt) built in the US will cost probably around $250musd today - that same tanker built in Korea will be around $50musd.

The Jones Act requires US built vessels with US licensed crews to carry cargo between US ports. If this legislation was killed it would take 5 minutes for the international fleet to come in and move those cargoes. You would have Chinese crews pushing barges up and down the Mississippi River within a week while a Panamanian tanker carries crude from Valdez to the West Coast.

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Chinese crews pushing barges up and down the Mississippi River

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Yep. When talking about the Jones Act most people overlook this key issue.

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the foreign guys are much more willing to "live with what they have" and buy smarter. When there are ME piston pulls or generator overhauls the US guys will request shore assistance while foreign guys will do it themselves.

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Have seen this cut both ways.

Foreign guys are notorious for being over confident. Ain't gonna name names but it's an issue.

US people and others from west are more willing to call in a technical expert to get it done. Part of this is that a lot of engineers came up in the military where you got engineering support units specific for that purpose and aren't hesitant to call in when needed. Same thing with spare parts. US guys are use to having triple spares of everything because thats the way it is in the US fleet.

The foreign guys will tell you they can do something they ain't qualified to do because they fear losing their job on the next contract rotation. US people ain't'' as worried about that issue.

But that said Filipino engineers are outliers as some of the best in the world.

You right that foreign crews are willing to "live with what they have". The downside of the "live with what you have" mentality" is when a 900ft ship loses power in the channel and hits a bridge causing a $3 billion loss.

This administration better start talking about massive tax cuts to coincide with the cleanups they are considering. Taxation in this country is completely out of hand.

Probably too late to out that genie back in the bottle. I guess you could increase our shipbuilding capacity but who wants yards the size of what Korea and China have near their favorite fishing hole or beach? Could get rid of the unions that plague the maritime space but that would only lower costs somewhat and hurt those that have firmly entrenched themselves in the industry already.

I think the latest Tanker Security Program is a good start where foreign built US flagged vessels carry US military CPP around the world. But the US Government supplements these vessels with 8musd a year so they compete with international trade. So more of our taxes being flushed.

Here's the article I referenced in my earlier post: https://today.tamu.edu/2024/12/12/texas-am-bachelors-degree-has-highest-return-on-investment-among-texas-public-universities/

"Texas A&M has the No. 1 (petroleum engineering), No. 3 (business) and No. 4 (marine transportation) highest-earning public bachelor's degrees in the state within 10 years of graduation. Chemical engineering and computer engineering rank eighth and ninth, respectively." I had never heard about Marine Transportation as a degree before.

How about the switch from bunker fuel to lsd?

Is the rest of the world still using bunker fuel?

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Most US vessels engaged in international trade have 75-90 day rotations while the foreign flagged guys are 3-4 months for licensed and 6-9 months for unlicensed.

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Another huge issue here.

Reality is a very small percentage of American kids will sign on to a job with a long rotation like that nowadays. They just don't have the mettle. They want their iphone and they want suzie rottencrotch. Theres no HR lady to cry to onboard. Theres no DEI office.

Brownwater or bluewater, culturally you on there with a bunch of animals that will eat you alive. Old mfers with union seniority. The culture is the same as the operational military or the oilfield.

However some kids will be perfectly suited for this. One easy way to find out without spending a bunch of money on a degree is to try and get a job on a towboat as a mess-cook / deckhand / wiper and see how that goes. Thats typically two weeks on two weeks off. If you can't handle that theres really no need to go any further.