NatCons vs FreeCons: A Discussion (Imprimis Article)

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policywonk98
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https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/national-conservatism-freedom-conservatism-and-americanism/

Perhaps it was posted back when it came out and I missed it. I think this article (adapted from a speech) does a good job of describing the two factions of the conservative movement "at war" with each other for the GOP party.

There are other layers on this topic that this speech does not go into, but I think it's a great high-level view of the two primary factions. I've noticed those factions debating each other in various ways in the forum over the last decade and I'm hopeful this thread can turn into a discussion between those factions where the temperature stays turned way down.

For those not in the know, Imprimis is a newsletter published by Hillsdale College, they are on the Nat Con side of these two factions for the most part. So, the speech and article come from their vantage point.

Popular figures on the Nat Con Side:
Victor Davis Hanson, Michael Knowles, Charlie Kirk

Popular figures on the Free Con Side:
Jonah Goldberg, Jeb Bush, Williamson Evers, Dick Armey,

Will also a note, it would be a mistake to think that these two sides represent entire institutions or conservative media outlets/think tanks. There are key figures signed onto the manifestos of each faction that work on staff with each other at the same publications or think tanks. Also, a mistake to believe that within these two groups there is total agreement. It's why the current impulse to make these debates within a political party so black and white, pretty nonsensical. It really isn't black and white and it has not been going back to when Jefferson and Adams were going at it or the Federalist vs. the Anti-Federalists.

This is not in the posted article, but I thought I would make this easy. Here is the Nat Con Manifesto. Here is the Free Con Manifesto. I would encourage starting with these manifestos to draw from beyond the article itself.

Some excerpts of this speech I consider key/interesting:


Quote:

In the past two years, two competing groups of conservativesNational Conservatives or NatCons and Freedom Conservatives or FreeConshave issued competing manifestos. These manifestos reflect a divergent understanding of the progressive challenge to the American way of life.


Quote:

This divergence can best be understood in the context of the history of modern American conservatism, which can be broken into three waves: the first wave, symbolized by William F. Buckley, Jr. and Ronald Reagan, lasted from the mid-1950s to the end of the Cold War; the second wave, symbolized by Paul Ryan and the two Bush presidencies, ran from the 1990s to roughly the second decade of this century; and the third wave, symbolized by Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump, is ongoing.


Quote:

Modern American conservatism began with the circle around Buckley's National Review magazine. Conservatism in this period united traditionalists, who were concerned above all with virtue, and classical liberals, who were concerned above all with liberty. National Review's Frank Meyer famously developed a theory called fusionism, which argued that freedom was a prerequisite for a virtuous society. Fusionism, whatever its philosophical inconsistenciesand aided by the common and urgent cause of anti-communismworked politically to hold differently-minded conservatives together, particularly during the Reagan administration.

This is such an important note to make, and I think it's important for all the factions to figure this piece out if they want to have any success going forward.


Quote:

Paul Ryan exemplified this second wave of conservatism intellectually and politically by promoting free trade, entitlement reform, increased immigration, and amnesty for illegal immigrants. Ryan told the Washington Examiner: "We need an immigration system that's more wired to give our economy the labor it needs to grow faster."



Quote:

The third wave of conservatism can be characterized as a nationalist-populist revolt against the policies and attitudes of the second wave, particularly on issues of immigration, trade, sovereignty, and national identity. Originally leading the opposition was U.S. Senator Jeff Sessions, who for years issued amendments, memos, and speeches, explicitly calling for a humble populism and "immigration moderation . . . so that wages can rise, welfare rolls can shrink, and the forces of assimilation can knit us all more closely together."


Much more in the speech. My hope is that this thread does not turn into a debate about personalities and politicians. My preference is to have a thread that is talking about the ideas represented by these two factions that have held sway in the GOP off and on for most of our lifetimes. Please leave the debates about Trump and other GOP leaders, Dem leaders, the election. etc. Leave those to other threads. Plenty of threads on that stuff. I'm hopeful we can have a discussion about the ideas found in the article/speech and the linked manifestos.

Here is a quote from the speech that expresses this author's goal of trying to accomplish a new fusionism within the conservative movement. I find it compelling and wonder if factions even including disaffected Democrats, can find enough common ground to work together in the defense and preservation of those things that have made America the best nation on earth for the greatest number of people.


Quote:

I will conclude with a recommendation on terminology that could become the basis for a new conservative fusionism. The conflict today is not simply a normal policy argument between conservatives and progressives. It is over the future of the historic American nation, both its creed and its culture. Therefore, those who affirm the American nationwhether they are NatCons, FreeCons, or patriotic liberalsshould be called Americanists. Those who find our inheritance deeply problematic and seek a revolutionary transformation of the American regime should, logically, be called Transformationists. Today's polarization should be viewed as an existential struggle between Americanists and Transformationists.
93MarineHorn
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OP, I think most of us on F16 can be "agree to disagree" conservatives when it comes to free trade v. tariffs, interventionism v isolationism etc.

The real problem for most of us is that there is one side that will stab the other in the back and work with or campaign for Dems if they are going to get primaried. This is what has caused the greatest rift between the two camps. It's not that one side demands ideological purity so much as it demands that you not collude with the enemy when you don't get your way.
jrdaustin
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Although there are many topics of discussion that could delineate between freecons and natcons, for me, the reason I find myself aligned more in the natcon point of view concerns an aspect of today's immigration that no one seems to be talking about.

In the days of Reagan, (and my youth), the topic of immigration was defined in the image of immigration throughout the history of the US... ie. someone coming to this nation to develop a new life for themselves and their families, who in the process of immigration, learned about the culture of the United States and desired to become a citizen and assimilate themselves within the culture that exists here.

Today's immigration, with the thousands/millions of arrivals at the border, results in a massive influx of people here who come and establish their own communities, cultures, and quasi-governments from their own country. They are truly less immigrants than they are invaders.

I cite the examples of the Somali communities in Minnesota, as well as the Venezuelan communities in Colorado who are wholly taking over entire apartment complexes and pushing everyone else out. These folks have absolutely no intention of learning American civics, or assimilating into the existing culture. I woud say they are by definition transformationalists.

I truly would like to understand a freecon point of view better, as it seems to me to simply be a nebulous "go along to get along" sort of worldview. A worldview that I believe would result in the end of the America we know and grew up with.
eric76
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I don't buy their divisions.

There has always been variations between groups of Conservatives. Two of the more prominent, variations are for example, Conservatives mostly concerned about business issues and Conservatives mainly concerned about religious issues.

I think that fundamentally, Conservatism is at its core about the desire to uphold the great institutions of our lives. Religion is one of these great institutions. Another is business. Another is government that is aimed toward preserving our great institutions, not tearing them down.

I don't see Populism as being at all Conservative. Populism is almost like the replacement of religion with a new religion revolving around the great leader who is pushing his own agenda, not a Conservative agenda. It replaces critical thought with the thoughts of the authoritarian leader.

eric76
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jrdaustin said:

Although there are many topics of discussion that could delineate between freecons and natcons, for me, the reason I find myself aligned more in the natcon point of view concerns an aspect of today's immigration that no one seems to be talking about.

In the days of Reagan, (and my youth), the topic of immigration was defined in the image of immigration throughout the history of the US... ie. someone coming to this nation to develop a new life for themselves and their families, who in the process of immigration, learned about the culture of the United States and desired to become a citizen and assimilate themselves within the culture that exists here.

Today's immigration, with the thousands/millions of arrivals at the border, results in a massive influx of people here who come and establish their own communities, cultures, and quasi-governments from their own country. They are truly less immigrants than they are invaders.

I cite the examples of the Somali communities in Minnesota, as well as the Venezuelan communities in Colorado who are wholly taking over entire apartment complexes and pushing everyone else out. These folks have absolutely no intention of learning American civics, or assimilating into the existing culture. I woud say they are by definition transformationalists.

I truly would like to understand a freecon point of view better, as it seems to me to simply be a nebulous "go along to get along" sort of worldview. A worldview that I believe would result in the end of the America we know and grew up with.
If you want to deal with immigration, end the practice of giving out benefits to all illegal immigrants. Make it cheaper for them to stay home. Those free benefits are very expensive.
jrdaustin
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eric76 said:

jrdaustin said:

Although there are many topics of discussion that could delineate between freecons and natcons, for me, the reason I find myself aligned more in the natcon point of view concerns an aspect of today's immigration that no one seems to be talking about.

In the days of Reagan, (and my youth), the topic of immigration was defined in the image of immigration throughout the history of the US... ie. someone coming to this nation to develop a new life for themselves and their families, who in the process of immigration, learned about the culture of the United States and desired to become a citizen and assimilate themselves within the culture that exists here.

Today's immigration, with the thousands/millions of arrivals at the border, results in a massive influx of people here who come and establish their own communities, cultures, and quasi-governments from their own country. They are truly less immigrants than they are invaders.

I cite the examples of the Somali communities in Minnesota, as well as the Venezuelan communities in Colorado who are wholly taking over entire apartment complexes and pushing everyone else out. These folks have absolutely no intention of learning American civics, or assimilating into the existing culture. I woud say they are by definition transformationalists.

I truly would like to understand a freecon point of view better, as it seems to me to simply be a nebulous "go along to get along" sort of worldview. A worldview that I believe would result in the end of the America we know and grew up with.
If you want to deal with immigration, end the practice of giving out benefits to all illegal immigrants. Make it cheaper for them to stay home. Those free benefits are very expensive.
I'm not trying to "deal with immigration" here, Eric. I'm making the observation that regardless how immigration is taking place, in today's environment, there is no longer any emphasis on teaching our immigrants American civics, customs, or rules.

The most obvious result of that is just driving through a major city. We're not all following the same rules of the road, and it shows.

There is a consequence to being unconcerned about the motives and allegiances of our arrivals that very few seem to be considering. And I fear that it will rear it's ugly head in the next few years. We're already seeing it in the UK. Hang on to your butts.
CDUB98
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Mostly classical liberal here.

Liberty matters most. Without it, nothing else can follow.

Aside from the Commie ******* progressives, this country is coming down to Statist versus free loving people, and the Statists keep helping the Commie *******s thinking they'll get a piece of the gov't pie in the future dystopian society.
aTmAg
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Paul Ryan sure as hell did not act like a freecon when he was speaker of the house. That's for damn sure. Why not pick people from the freedom caucus as examples?
Get Off My Lawn
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Intellectuals are incredibly poor at persuasion.

America First
Make America Great Again
Tea Party
Swamp
Uniparty

These phrases convey far more than "Americanism" because the American system has morphed from the Articles of Confederation all the way to paying for sexual surgeries for prisoners. Which is to say it's so malleable as to be shapeless.

Ultimately those who claim to be "conservatives" either want to restore a system which serves Americans or they they're liberals who were more comfortable with yesterday's status quo.
P.H. Dexippus
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93MarineHorn said:

The real problem for most of us is that there is one side that will stab the other in the back and work with or campaign for Dems if they are going to get primaried. This is what has caused the greatest rift between the two camps. It's not that one side demands ideological purity so much as it demands that you not collude with the enemy when you don't get your way.
Is this the guy you are talking about?

Quote:

"I am watching television and I am seeing ad, after ad, after ad put in by the establishment, knocking the hell out of me, and it's really unfair. But if I leave, if I go, regardless of independent, which I may do I mean, may or may not. But if I go, I will tell you, these millions of people that joined, they're all coming with me."
Get Off My Lawn
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eric76 said:

I don't buy their divisions.

There has always been variations between groups of Conservatives. Two of the more prominent, variations are for example, Conservatives mostly concerned about business issues and Conservatives mainly concerned about religious issues.

I think that fundamentally, Conservatism is at its core about the desire to uphold the great institutions of our lives. Religion is one of these great institutions. Another is business. Another is government that is aimed toward preserving our great institutions, not tearing them down.

I don't see Populism as being at all Conservative. Populism is almost like the replacement of religion with a new religion revolving around the great leader who is pushing his own agenda, not a Conservative agenda. It replaces critical thought with the thoughts of the authoritarian leader.


Your mind is certainly a unique place. I agree in part, but may disagree regarding the importance of "great institutions" to the conservative cause. If by "institutions" you mean the pure concept of an institution such as the idealized "church" and "education" and "justice" - then sure. But if you mean our current bureaucracies that constitute "public schools" and "the department of justice" and "social security"… then I would argue that most conservatives would view these as morphed organizations unworthy of preservation in their current/modern form.

I certainly agree that populism is distinct from conservativism.
Bob Lee
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Progressive Liberalism is Conservative Liberalism in the future.
pagerman @ work
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eric76 said:

I don't buy their divisions.

There has always been variations between groups of Conservatives. Two of the more prominent, variations are for example, Conservatives mostly concerned about business issues and Conservatives mainly concerned about religious issues.

I think that fundamentally, Conservatism is at its core about the desire to uphold the great institutions of our lives. Religion is one of these great institutions. Another is business. Another is government that is aimed toward preserving our great institutions, not tearing them down.

I don't see Populism as being at all Conservative. Populism is almost like the replacement of religion with a new religion revolving around the great leader who is pushing his own agenda, not a Conservative agenda. It replaces critical thought with the thoughts of the authoritarian leader.


That's because it isn't, and that is the greatest flaw within his broadside.

Trying to combine conservatism with populism gets you neither. Populism by its very nature is not grounded in any set of core beliefs. It's basically coalition policy making, cobbling together whomever you can convince to go along for the ride. And it certainly isn't grounded in the notion of liberty, which is at the core of what this person would classify as essentially "1st wave" conservatism.

And you are 100% correct that populism generally is about a cult of personality around an individual, which is why those movements never last very long. Eventually the person fades in importance as the cult moves on to other things.

And as easy as it is (and as deserved) to criticize 2nd wave or neocons, it is important to remember that the only way conservatives win at the ballot box is with those people mostly staying in the tent.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
American Hardwood
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CDUB98 said:

Mostly classical liberal here.

Liberty matters most. Without it, nothing else can follow.

Aside from the Commie ******* progressives, this country is coming down to Statist versus free loving people, and the Statists keep helping the Commie *******s thinking they'll get a piece of the gov't pie in the future dystopian society.
I'm going to disagree with you here structurally. I think you have the cart before the horse. Liberty is the reward, not the foundation. It is earned by people with the fortitude to fight for it and preserve it. It is what you get for being good and strong and united in cause. Liberty doesn't happen at the beginning; it happens at the end.
The best way to keep evil men from wielding great power is to not create great power in the first place.
Logos Stick
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I don't consider these guys to be conservatives: Jonah Goldberg, Jeb Bush

Heck, Goldberg might vote for Kamala.
CDUB98
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American Hardwood said:

CDUB98 said:

Mostly classical liberal here.

Liberty matters most. Without it, nothing else can follow.

Aside from the Commie ******* progressives, this country is coming down to Statist versus free loving people, and the Statists keep helping the Commie *******s thinking they'll get a piece of the gov't pie in the future dystopian society.
I'm going to disagree with you here structurally. I think you have the cart before the horse. Liberty is the reward, not the foundation. It is earned by people with the fortitude to fight for it and preserve it. It is what you get for being good and strong and united in cause. Liberty doesn't happen at the beginning; it happens at the end.
I don't think we are in disagreement. You've laid out the steps to get to where I'm talking. That's why liberty matters most, and it has to be secured first, and then everything else can follow.
policywonk98
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Some of you should read the links I posted. First, not really wanting a politician bash fest. We've had hundreds of threads doing that over the years. Second, the names I listed on the FreeCon vs NatCon side are actual signatories to the manifesto's that are linked in the OP. You can go to each manifesto and read the principals for each manifesto and you can read the list of people that signed onto the manifestos. I simply listed some of the signatories to give everyone an idea of public figures on each side.
dmart90
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policywonk98 said:

Some of you should read the links I posted. First, not really wanting a politician bash fest. We've had hundreds of threads doing that over the years. Second, the names I listed on the FreeCon vs NatCon side are actual signatories to the manifesto's that are linked in the OP. You can go to each manifesto and read the principals for each manifesto and you can read the list of people that signed onto the manifestos. I simply listed some of the signatories to give everyone an idea of public figures on each side.
Thank you for sharing links that describe NatCon and FreeCon. I had never seen it broken out this way before. FreeCon is very close to Classical Liberal which is what I have become over the years.

There is definitely some common ground between the two manifestos - but also some distinct contrasts that help to explain the friction.
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