Rule 1: Vouchers are not part of this. This is intended to be a dou*** out of the current system and how to send it back to a point they aren't needed. I do favor them just to see how the cards fall.

1. Buckle up, K-3 or 4, you're in for a wild ride. Kids will not be passed along who do not have the basic skills when exiting a grade. This will initially cause an enormous backup of kids who simply can't sit down, shut up, behave, and learn how to learn. A few years of this may lower the number of kids who already know they can just slide by, and may wake up some parents. Some children should be left behind for a time.

2. Lower classroom maximum numbers in lower grades. 23 2nd graders is too many for any ringmaster to handle efficiently and give attention where it is due. At 4th grade and above there is currently no limit. Nonsense. 30 high school is one thing, 30 4th graders is another. Will it take more classrooms and teachers? Yep. For a time.

3. Ability group kids again. They did it when I was a kid, and it pushed the advanced kids while giving more needed attention to others.

4. I'll catch Hell for this one, but limit the "inclusion" kids in regular classes to those who really can learn and participate. They should be neither a drag on the learning of the other kids, nor a disruption issue. There should be adequate special ed help for those kids at their level(s).

5. Bring back corporal punishment. It is an embarrassment and immediate reinforcement - not just semi-solitary confinement in detention. ISS should be limited. The old "three day expulsion" should make a comeback. Violent attacks against a teacher or administrator is a one way ticket to jail.

6. You want better teachers? Improve the discipline and classroom experience for them with the above suggestions so they can teach. Too many are quitting because they don't like being zookeepers. Raise salaries to bring them in.

7. There has to be a way to get rid of bad teachers. Many are kept on simply because they can't be replaced. See number 6.

8. There has to be some way to reward good teachers. That may even be tougher than #7. Lots of variable inputs.

9. There has to be a way to get rid of bad administrators. Too many occupy an office and refuse to make tough decisions for fear of hurting their chances of moving up to Central Office where the big bucks and power really roll in. Some ex-coaches made fine assistant principals.

10. Do we really need a "Dean of Instruction" at every school? Do they really need to use our classrooms for their PhD laboratory? How many "counselors" does an elementary school really need?

11. Who doesn't like to watch high school sports? Get a grip on these asinine facilities and expenditures from multi million dollar practice facilities to coaching numbers.

12. Not every kid needs to graduate with classes suitable for MIT admission. They do, however need solid math and writing/communication skills. We need to reemphasize trades. A top notch welder or electrician can do well early, especially if local businesses can use them a "journeymen". Think: the old "CO-OP" programs.


Fire away! Call me an "old" - I no longer gaf. I do know what worked, and what we have now isn't it.

Or, we can totally privatize. And let the free market find the best way.

You're old

And if parents can't afford your free market?

Regarding #10 and counselors, I'll throw it out there that I think we need more.

There are a lot of behavioral issues in those younger grades that teachers don't have the time to deal with. Lots of it is due to parenting, but if the school can help a kid out it makes it where the whole class gets taught better.

you could have just said "Make all parents more responsible to their children and stop pawning them off on the public schools" and the current system would fix itself.

Allow teachers to fail children that aren't interested in learning

Allow administration to kick out or remove kids that aren't interested in learning / constant trouble makers that can't pass.

Create more CTE pathways to graduation from high school, allowing students to graduate as productive members of society.

Pay good teachers and fire bad teachers.

Make every school that's operating below its capacity open enrollment. (Many are now anyway, but expand it).

I was reminding the wife about #3 from when I was in elementary school in the 70s.

Now to brag for a bit... My daughter was so smart at math, she was two grade levels ahead. Get to her senior year in high school, and her Calc teacher said she should have nothing to do with math in college, thinking she was dumb. Daughter graduated from college with honors, minor in math. She wanted to major in math, but I got her to go Stat so she could get a job. She's working and now in Stat grad program.

The point of my story is that some teachers just don't teach well in some cases.

B-1 83 said:

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And if parents can't afford your free market?

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It's not my free market. It's THE free market. The best economic system discovered by mankind.


And as long as there is demand, the free market will find away. People will open classes in their houses (like my mom did). They will rotate and teach each other's kids their area of expertise. And then there is charity, which would go much farther under a free market as education would be a tiny fraction of the current cost. There are plenty of ways. And most of them are better than what we have now.

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5. Bring back corporal punishment. It is an embarrassment and immediate reinforcement - not just semi-solitary confinement in detention. ISS should be limited. The old "three day expulsion" should make a comeback. Violent attacks against a teacher or administrator is a one way ticket to jail.

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No to corporal punishment. Yes to expulsion.

Far too many good students are being dragged down due to turds that can't/won't control themselves. Don't whip them, just get rid of them.

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1. Buckle up, K-3 or 4, you're in for a wild ride. Kids will not be passed along who do not have the basic skills when exiting a grade. This will initially cause an enormous backup of kids who simply can't sit down, shut up, behave, and learn how to learn. A few years of this may lower the number of kids who already know they can just slide by, and may wake up some parents. Some children should be left behind for a time.

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Yes, I agree with this. Parents need to see where their kids are realistically at. This might mean classes of 8- and 9-year-old first-graders.

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2. Lower classroom maximum numbers in lower grades. 23 2nd graders is too many for any ringmaster to handle efficiently and give attention where it is due. At 4th grade and above there is currently no limit. Nonsense. 30 high school is one thing, 30 4th graders is another. Will it take more classrooms and teachers? Yep. For a time.

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I think this is a good idea, but you're going to need more teachers to make it work.

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3. Ability group kids again. They did it when I was a kid, and it pushed the advanced kids while giving more needed attention to others.

4. I'll catch Hell for this one, but limit the "inclusion" kids in regular classes to those who really can learn and participate. They should be neither a drag on the learning of the other kids, nor a disruption issue. There should be adequate special ed help for those kids at their level(s).

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For me, these two go together. Ability group the kids and ditch inclusion altogether. The dirty little secret is that inclusion teachers are available bodies to cover teacher absences. And not having assigned classes gives them a little flexibility to "float" when they should be working with students. I know even school district employees struggle to get services for their special needs kids, and they know the rules.

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5. Bring back corporal punishment. It is an embarrassment and immediate reinforcement - not just semi-solitary confinement in detention. ISS should be limited. The old "three day expulsion" should make a comeback. Violent attacks against a teacher or administrator is a one way ticket to jail.

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I pretty much agree with all of this, with the caveat that there are kids for whom corporal punishment isn't a deterrent. They need another intervention, not to be spanked over and over to no effect. I will also add that schools need teachers who specialize in disruptive students. Kids who are on level but who are regularly disruptive go into those classes and let the kids in the regular classes learn.

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6. You want better teachers? Improve the discipline and classroom experience for them with the above suggestions so they can teach. Too many are quitting because they don't like being zookeepers. Raise salaries to bring them in.

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Yes.

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7. There has to be a way to get rid of bad teachers. Many are kept on simply because they can't be replaced. See number 6.

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Also yes. Teacher evaluation needs to be taken seriously. Also, rethinking the way contracts work.

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8. There has to be some way to reward good teachers. That may even be tougher than #7. Lots of variable inputs.

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In Texas, the Teacher Incentive Allotment is trying to do this. But without good teacher evaluation and buy-in, the results can be spotty, at best.

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9. There has to be a way to get rid of bad administrators. Too many occupy an office and refuse to make tough decisions for fear of hurting their chances of moving up to Central Office where the big bucks and power really roll in. Some ex-coaches made fine assistant principals.

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Actually, even worse, many wind up in Central Office because it is too difficult to fire them. After a few years, people forget why they were moved there, and sometimes they can move up. I don't think anyone should be on contract in Central Office, and everyone there should be an at-will employee and let go if they can't get the job done or have other problems. And if you get reassigned to Central Office because you had an issue on campus, you are automatically let go upon the completion of the school year.

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10. Do we really need a "Dean of Instruction" at every school? Do they really need to use our classrooms for their PhD laboratory? How many "counselors" does an elementary school really need?

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Curriculum and Instruction Departments are vital in every district. The problem is most of the people who occupy those offices have no idea how to do the job. There should be some sort of required prerequisite training and testing provided by the state that shows you understand how to use data for program evaluation and how to read research to understand if a particular curriculum will work in your district.

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11. Who doesn't like to watch high school sports? Get a grip on these asinine facilities and expenditures from multi million dollar practice facilities to coaching numbers.

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Yes

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12. Not every kid needs to graduate with classes suitable for MIT admission. They do, however need solid math and writing/communication skills. We need to reemphasize trades. A top notch welder or electrician can do well early, especially if local businesses can use them a "journeymen". Think: the old "CO-OP" programs.

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I agree. We should study the German model as an example.

Beyond what you said, some suggestions:

• Candidates for school board should get some sort of state training to understand their roles. They also need to be shown how to hold the superintendent accountable.
• There needs to be better training and licensure for superintendents. Yes, they are accountable to the board, but I think there needs to be review by more knowledgeable people, as well.
• The state needs teams to help revamp F schools. The worst schools often need more guidance on how to improve. Just giving a school an F rating isn't enough.
• There needs to be some sort of system to unite the schools office (which manages principals) and the curriculum department (which manages curriculum). When things go bad, they point fingers at each other. When things are good, both take credit. This is maybe a little inside baseball, but dividing these entities up like this hurts teachers, who sometimes have to decide whether to listen to their principal's advice or the advice from central office on how to deliver instruction. It muddies up the water when you are trying to determine whether a particular curriculum or a particular campus is a problem.

I'm sure there are a lot more things that could be done, too.

Thanks for the input!

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And if parents can't afford your free market?

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Then there is this place where kids can go. It is called govt. school aka an ISD.

aTmAg said:

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B-1 83 said:

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And if parents can't afford your free market?

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It's not my free market. It's THE free market. The best economic system discovered by mankind.


And as long as there is demand, the free market will find away. People will open classes in their houses (like my mom did). They will rotate and teach each other's kids their area of expertise. And then there is charity, which would go much farther under a free market as education would be a tiny fraction of the current cost. There are plenty of ways. And most of them are better than what we have now.

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There is little to no demand in the poorer segments of society. By and large, their parents are either absent figuratively, or literally, and they don't get pushed to go to school or educate themselves. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

You will create an entire class of less educated individuals than already exist and the gov. will step in and prop them up more than they do now.

The only way to make education better ends and begins with changing culture. The Free Market is not going to do that.

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no. God does not need to be in school.

That is what Sundays are for.

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I will put our Christian School kids up against any public school and show you why what you said is wrong.

1. Get your kids out of public schools. If that means downsizing and living off one income, do it.
2. Vouchers.
3. Defund administrators.
4. Remove sports from public schools.
5. Make parents write a check for school taxes (pay per kid, not based on appraised home value).
6. Get your kids out of public schools.

I agree with most of B1-83's thoughts on the topic.

For me, being married for a long time to someone in public education, the single biggest thing that could be done to improve the schools is to simply remove the 5-10% of students that cause 90% of the problems. Kick them out. Get rid of them. They'll likely end up dead or in jail anyway. Adios.

Let's start with discipline, accountability and punishment as a culture for the students while in school.

agracer said:

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aTmAg said:

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B-1 83 said:

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And if parents can't afford your free market?

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It's not my free market. It's THE free market. The best economic system discovered by mankind.


And as long as there is demand, the free market will find away. People will open classes in their houses (like my mom did). They will rotate and teach each other's kids their area of expertise. And then there is charity, which would go much farther under a free market as education would be a tiny fraction of the current cost. There are plenty of ways. And most of them are better than what we have now.

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There is little to no demand in the poorer segments of society. By and large, their parents are either absent figuratively, or literally, and they don't get pushed to go to school or educate themselves. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

You will create an entire class of less educated individuals than already exist and the gov. will step in and prop them up more than they do now.

The only way to make education better ends and begins with changing culture. The Free Market is not going to do that.

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To pretend that we don't already have an entire class of uneducated individuals is ignoring reality. And today, that not only describes many of the poor, it describes other classes too. One could go find a random teenager today, ask them when the country was founded, who their senators are, to find Ukraine on a map, etc. and most will have no idea.

Furthermore, it depends on who it is. I know lots of poor Hispanics (from my kids' soccer) who are damn poor, but made damn sure their kids did well in school (the oldest one just graduated college).

For those parents that really do not care, then their kids typically don't care either. And kids who do not care not only refuse to learn but disrupt others. They should not be there. Let them learn the hard way and then go back to night school when they grow out of it.



And yes, the free market does change culture. As government is the one that rewards people for blowing off school. We pay them to not work, provide them food stamps, etc. If they actually feared hunger, then their attitudes would change immediately. Our welfare system created this problem. Eliminating it, would go a long way to fix it.

After the industrial revolution public K-12 education evolved from a pursuit of creating mature, virtuous citizens to creating workers to insert into the industrial cog.

So, step # 1 would be to go back to a Classical Educational model.

If I had my way, education would split after 8th grade. A trade heavy work based path for high school and a college track for students that want to go that way. The work based path would be out of school with apprenticeships etc. The college track would be what high school looks like currently.

Honestly, it would be easier to get nationwide vouchers than implement what you stated.

You're basically turning the clock back 60 years. That's the way it was when I was in school.

I approve of most of them, but it's never happening.

I Like Mike said:

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If I had my way, education would split after 8th grade. A trade heavy work based path for high school and a college track for students that want to go that way. The work based path would be out of school with apprenticeships etc. The college track would be what high school looks like currently.

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Yes. By 8th grade you can clearly tell which kids are college bound. It's a ridiculous notion to think every HS student needs to learn geometry and chemistry. Let students start learning a trade.

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If I had my way, education would split after 8th grade. A trade heavy work based path for high school and a college track for students that want to go that way. The work based path would be out of school with apprenticeships etc. The college track would be what high school looks like currently.

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I would love this, but liberal heads explode if you tell them not all kids are fit to go to college. For free.

It would never happen anyway.... none of our elected leaders are willing to stick their neck out on anything controversial. Bad for re-election.

Our politicians will continue kicking the g**d*mn can down the road on every issue of consequence (SS, National Debt, Immigration, Education, etc) until we run this country totally into the ditch.

NoahAg said:

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I Like Mike said:

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If I had my way, education would split after 8th grade. A trade heavy work based path for high school and a college track for students that want to go that way. The work based path would be out of school with apprenticeships etc. The college track would be what high school looks like currently.

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Yes. By 8th grade you can clearly tell which kids are college bound. It's a ridiculous notion to think every HS student needs to learn geometry and chemistry. Let students start learning a trade.

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Or how about going to work in a safe environment somewhere? Some kids are don't need trade school either.

50% of kids don't need formal education after 8th grade as long as they are proficient in the three Rs.

C@LAg said:

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rocky the dog said:

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no. God does not need to be in school.

That is what Sundays are for.

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Wrong. It's freedom OF religion... Not freedom FROM religion. That's what we've gotten wrong for far too long in this country.

Lower the age of adult to 16. If you can drive a car then you can drop out of school and get a job.

Let kids select when entering HS if they intend to pursue a 4 yr degree or if HS/community college is their path. Those kids should be put on a separate track and grading scale commensurate to the goal.

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4. I'll catch Hell for this one, but limit the "inclusion" kids in regular classes to those who really can learn and participate. They should be neither a drag on the learning of the other kids, nor a disruption issue. There should be adequate special ed help for those kids at their level(s).

5. Bring back corporal punishment. It is an embarrassment and immediate reinforcement - not just semi-solitary confinement in detention. ISS should be limited. The old "three day expulsion" should make a comeback. Violent attacks against a teacher or administrator is a one way ticket to jail.

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I'll catch even more hell..

We have 1207 School districts in Texas. Each one has their own Admin structure. How much could we save if we combined them? Slash the money at the top that doesn't touch the students.

Throw any student that lays hands on a teacher in prison until they "graduate" from the school set up in prison. Give Teachers civil and criminal immunity for defending themselves or another teacher being attacked by a student.

I agree with your original list.

Figuring out how measure "good" teachers an then rewarding them will be difficult because of the pushback from the teachers that don't get rewarded.

Stop making school compulsory. If a kid doesn't want to be there, I don't want him there either.

Let 'em roam the streets while you're at work or put them to work in the meat packing plants, eh?

My wife is a former elementary educator of ten years and nearly another ten years teaching college of ed students to become teachers

Any attempt to "reset" public education must include teachers in the planning.

I also think some of your thoughts behind why teachers are leaving in droves is not completely on base. For too long, admin and state officials have neglected the well-being of teachers. Teachers must put themselves first before students when it comes to their well-being (e.g., physical fitness and mental health).

aTmAg said:

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agracer said:

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aTmAg said:

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B-1 83 said:

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And if parents can't afford your free market?

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It's not my free market. It's THE free market. The best economic system discovered by mankind.


And as long as there is demand, the free market will find away. People will open classes in their houses (like my mom did). They will rotate and teach each other's kids their area of expertise. And then there is charity, which would go much farther under a free market as education would be a tiny fraction of the current cost. There are plenty of ways. And most of them are better than what we have now.

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There is little to no demand in the poorer segments of society. By and large, their parents are either absent figuratively, or literally, and they don't get pushed to go to school or educate themselves. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

You will create an entire class of less educated individuals than already exist and the gov. will step in and prop them up more than they do now.

The only way to make education better ends and begins with changing culture. The Free Market is not going to do that.

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To pretend that we don't already have an entire class of uneducated individuals is ignoring reality. And today, that not only describes many of the poor, it describes other classes too. One could go find a random teenager today, ask them when the country was founded, who their senators are, to find Ukraine on a map, etc. and most will have no idea.

Furthermore, it depends on who it is. I know lots of poor Hispanics (from my kids' soccer) who are damn poor, but made damn sure their kids did well in school (the oldest one just graduated college).

For those parents that really do not care, then their kids typically don't care either. And kids who do not care not only refuse to learn but disrupt others. They should not be there. Let them learn the hard way and then go back to night school when they grow out of it.

And yes, the free market does change culture. As government is the one that rewards people for blowing off school. We pay them to not work, provide them food stamps, etc. If they actually feared hunger, then their attitudes would change immediately. Our welfare system created this problem. Eliminating it, would go a long way to fix it.

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Read it again, that's not what I stated.

As for the second part, who is ignoring reality now? You show me a politician that can get elected running on ending hand outs and then we can talk about your fantasy ideas. In fact, I'd agree 100% with them.

But the rest of us live in the real world.

The most impactful thing you could do is kick out the ones who aren't trying or are disruptive. Just remove them from the equation permanently. Send a mass communication to stakeholders that if you're disruptive, you'll be permanently expelled from the school, and there will be no appeals process or recourse of any kind.

Similarly, same level of intolerance for teachers implementing anything that resembles woke curriculum or is subversive in any way. You're outta here no questions asked. No sob story excuses about how you downloaded it off some website and didn't know what it was before I taught it to other people's children.

I would make school just about learning and nothing else. No counselors to be your sounding board. If you're a weirdo or have emotional issues, your parents can take you to a priest or therapist, but we don't do that here.