It appears that it will cost you a $75 one time fee and $10/month to opt out of either of the smart meters for water and electricity (or double for both).

The electricity meter will read every 15 minutes and distinguish between device signatures for cooling, water heater, appliances, electronics, and lighting and compare your values with your neighbors.
The water meter appears to monitor every hour and allows comparisons as well.

There are obvious privacy concerns, but the utilities seem reluctant to restrict reading to once per month or allow the customer to read and send a photo.

How Smart Meters Invade Individual Privacy



Has anyone contested any of these or are aware of laws regulating their usage?

Since this is an effective rate increase, are there any requirements for giving notice ahead of such rate hikes such as 60 days advance notice?

(cross-posting from the Austin forum, but hoping for some answers)

I don't know the wiring setup for a battery backup system but in theory, if your wired a tesla powerwall inbetween the utility and your main panel - could the smart meter distinguish anything other than the fact it was powering a tesla powerwall (or equivalent)

That smart meter is going to be making a lot of assumptions about what it "thinks" you are using your electricity for.

They may be able to tell major appliance / HVAC use but everything else is going to be modeled with tons of assumptions and little accuracy.

But why is this a new topic? Smart meters have been prevalent for 10-15 years. Use to be google published data from smart meter reads.

You do not have an option on who supplies your electricity/water/gas. It is essentially a monopoly by necessity.

These services should not be allowed to mandate shat. New technology by request, not forced.

I was told that I had to change out my electrical meter to one of these new digital/fancy models. House is 12 years old and was told that ALL homes are being switched to them and even new homes are being built with old meters because of supply issue. I don't want this type meter, but I have no choice of electrical provider.

DD88 said:

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It appears that it will cost you a $75 one time fee and $10/month to opt out of either of the smart meters for water and electricity (or double for both).

The electricity meter will read every 15 minutes and distinguish between device signatures for cooling, water heater, appliances, electronics, and lighting and compare your values with your neighbors.
The water meter appears to monitor every hour and allows comparisons as well.

There are obvious privacy concerns, but the utilities seem reluctant to restrict reading to once per month or allow the customer to read and send a photo.

How Smart Meters Invade Individual Privacy



Has anyone contested any of these or are aware of laws regulating their usage?

Since this is an effective rate increase, are there any requirements for giving notice ahead of such rate hikes such as 60 days advance notice?

(cross-posting from the Austin forum, but hoping for some answers)

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This is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Travis County should be declared a State District and control assumed by the Texas Legislature and Governor.

There was a push ~15 years ago to put a transceiver in major appliances that communicated with the smart meter at the service panel. That way the meter knew for sure what was sucking down the kWh.

That was part of Obama's bailouts at the start of his term, and I don't know what has become of it since. My house had a smart meter put on it, but it still has the same dumb appliances. And occupant.

DD88 said:

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1. What? How does someone knowing your kwh help them steal your identity?
2. Let me help you out, they will know if you are using A/C or heater (which weather will tell anyways) and maybe if you are doing bitcoin mining. Otherwise it is really hard to tell what energy use is.
3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.
4. Since 3 is wrong this is super weak.
5. Not really.
6. How? Do old people not use energy? You can't just google a home address and then find the usage, unless you work for an energy company. Even then you would need that customer's ESIID.
7. This sounds like a made up thing that is likely contained by the other numbers but sounds scary.
8. Again they can tell roughly the same info from an old style meter. Your monthly usage will reveal if you have a pool, run A/C or Heater alot or are mining bitcoin.
9. This allows you to contest that more easily. Not really a smart reader issue.
10. Profiling what exactly? Another scary word.
11. How is someone shamed/embarrassed by energy usage?
12. Again just total energy usage or hourly usage patterns. Won't be that revealing.
13. Sounds like more scary phrase to boost number count
14. I bet people used alot of energy between 3-7pm and possibly 6-8 am during summer (this was without seeing any data). So yeah not anything special.

Reminds me of a protest song in my youth. In the song it repeatedly and quite eloquently said,"rules and regulations who needs them, throw them out the door"

The writer is a leftist progressive and I am sure still believes in these lyrics, right….,,, right.

Wake up Nash, you are the very definition of a hypocrite.

Not even "effectively" a rate increase because you're not forced to pay anything. Your service can continue without any increase. It costs money to opt out because the utility suffers an opportunity cost where they must manually read your meter while others report automatically. Your desire to opt out results in real costs for them.

Many of the concerns over smart meters are way overblown. Like the renter example in OP's link. If I own the property and I'm paying the electric bill, what type of meter is used is my business. If you don't like it, buy your own place or rent somewhere else. While it's possible, though improbable, that some very savvy individuals steal usage data in an attempt to determine thing is like people's habits to support burglary, those individuals are a) going to be few and far between and b) can't tell the difference between your SC and everything else. Without more device level granularity, it's not useful info compared to just driving around a neighborhood and looking at cars in driveways or burglars' existing techniques.

Oh, I almost forgot.

Smart meters also cause cancer.

Friend of mine worked in the power markets. Best data she ever saw was 15 min usage. The meters were capable of getting down into the 5 min level of reporting but no one did that.

I honestly didn't know there were any "dumb" meters still around.

As another poster indicated unless there is some type of device on an appliance telling the meter what is running all the meter knows is usage.

I think some people forget that as little as 10 years ago the utility had to employ meter readers that jumped your fence and went into your back yard to read your meter once a month.

texagbeliever said:

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DD88 said:

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1. What? How does someone knowing your kwh help them steal your identity?
2. Let me help you out, they will know if you are using A/C or heater (which weather will tell anyways) and maybe if you are doing bitcoin mining. Otherwise it is really hard to tell what energy use is.
3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.
4. Since 3 is wrong this is super weak.
5. Not really.
6. How? Do old people not use energy? You can't just google a home address and then find the usage, unless you work for an energy company. Even then you would need that customer's ESIID.
7. This sounds like a made up thing that is likely contained by the other numbers but sounds scary.
8. Again they can tell roughly the same info from an old style meter. Your monthly usage will reveal if you have a pool, run A/C or Heater alot or are mining bitcoin.
9. This allows you to contest that more easily. Not really a smart reader issue.
10. Profiling what exactly? Another scary word.
11. How is someone shamed/embarrassed by energy usage?
12. Again just total energy usage or hourly usage patterns. Won't be that revealing.
13. Sounds like more scary phrase to boost number count
14. I bet people used alot of energy between 3-7pm and possibly 6-8 am during summer (this was without seeing any data). So yeah not anything special.

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15. The government whether federal, state, county or city has never abused their power.

Kenneth_2003 said:

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Friend of mine worked in the power markets. Best data she ever saw was 15 min usage. The meters were capable of getting down into the 5 min level of reporting but no one did that.

I honestly didn't know there were any "dumb" meters still around.

As another poster indicated unless there is some type of device on an appliance telling the meter what is running all the meter knows is usage.

I think some people forget that as little as 10 years ago the utility had to employ meter readers that jumped your fence and went into your back yard to read your meter once a month.

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And a pit bull or a Rottweiler got you free electricity.

texagbeliever said:

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DD88 said:

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3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.

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Actually this is fairly easy to do since appliances have specific power draw over time. It would be fairly easy to train a neural network to detect the usage patterns of specific appliances. The only question is if using a 15 minute average can give enough fidelity to get that specific.

It would be easy to determine major appliances like dish washers or washing machines by combing the water + electricity data.

AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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DD88 said:

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3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.

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Actually this is fairly easy to do since appliances have specific power draw over time. It would be fairly easy to train a neural network to detect the usage patterns of specific appliances. The only question is if using a 15 minute average can give enough fidelity to get that specific.

It would be easy to determine major appliances like dish washers or washing machines by combing the water + electricity data.

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It would be really tough. Light, random appliance usage, electronics, A/C kicking on and off, ceiling fans, garage door opening, the residents moving out, residents WFH, etc.

Basically things change frequently enough you would struggle to pin down exact things. Sure you know the family runs their dishwasher, Washing machine and Dryer, but you already knew that. This would be a TON of effort for almost no return. Also the competency and skills required would far exceed what one would suspect for a government employee.

Really guys, this is what smart meters mean.

First, it means wireless reading of your meter every month. That means nobody coming into your backyard. It also lowers costs to the power company, and with some wishful thinking those savings should get passed on to the consumer. I don't why anyone would be against this.

It also means real-time billing. Maybe not implemented yet, but undoubtedly coming. I understand how this may bother some people. The more electricity you use during peak hours, the more you are billed for it. There may be some nuance there, but in general I find it hard to argue with that logic. If it costs too much, use less.

Everything else is a conspiracy theory more than ten years old.

texagbeliever said:

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AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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DD88 said:

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3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.

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Actually this is fairly easy to do since appliances have specific power draw over time. It would be fairly easy to train a neural network to detect the usage patterns of specific appliances. The only question is if using a 15 minute average can give enough fidelity to get that specific.

It would be easy to determine major appliances like dish washers or washing machines by combing the water + electricity data.

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It would be really tough. Light, random appliance usage, electronics, A/C kicking on and off, ceiling fans, garage door opening, the residents moving out, residents WFH, etc.

Basically things change frequently enough you would struggle to pin down exact things. Sure you know the family runs their dishwasher, Washing machine and Dryer, but you already knew that. This would be a TON of effort for almost no return. Also the competency and skills required would far exceed what one would suspect for a government employee.

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This is signal theory 101. The only question is sample interval. At 15 min the data will be noisy. If the sample rate is switched to 1 min the data would be super easy to filter. This does not take a super skilled person.

AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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DD88 said:

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3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.

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Actually this is fairly easy to do since appliances have specific power draw over time. It would be fairly easy to train a neural network to detect the usage patterns of specific appliances. The only question is if using a 15 minute average can give enough fidelity to get that specific.

It would be easy to determine major appliances like dish washers or washing machines by combing the water + electricity data.

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It would be really tough. Light, random appliance usage, electronics, A/C kicking on and off, ceiling fans, garage door opening, the residents moving out, residents WFH, etc.

Basically things change frequently enough you would struggle to pin down exact things. Sure you know the family runs their dishwasher, Washing machine and Dryer, but you already knew that. This would be a TON of effort for almost no return. Also the competency and skills required would far exceed what one would suspect for a government employee.

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This is signal theory 101. The only question is sample interval. At 15 min the data will be noisy. If the sample rate is switched to 1 min the data would be super easy to filter. This does not take a super skilled person.

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I have seen data methodologies like that applied to residential customer usage in Texas. The takeaway is and has always been this is the general shape. The data is too random to be properly normalized so it becomes extremely difficult to extract details like you are talking about. Only the strictest of OCD time people will live and operate in a way to glean that information off of them.

torrid said:

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Really guys, this is what smart meters mean.

First, it means wireless reading of your meter every month. That means nobody coming into your backyard. It also lowers costs to the power company, and with some wishful thinking those savings should get passed on to the consumer. I don't why anyone would be against this.

It also means real-time billing. Maybe not implemented yet, but undoubtedly coming. I understand how this may bother some people. The more electricity you use during peak hours, the more you are billed for it. There may be some nuance there, but in general I find it hard to argue with that logic. If it costs too much, use less.

Everything else is a conspiracy theory more than ten years old.

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It is all a question of sample rate. If sampled say once an hour then sure. if sampled every minute, then there is a ton of data that can be extracted.

If it weren't valuable information... why would they be doing it?

texagbeliever said:

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AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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DD88 said:

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3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.

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Actually this is fairly easy to do since appliances have specific power draw over time. It would be fairly easy to train a neural network to detect the usage patterns of specific appliances. The only question is if using a 15 minute average can give enough fidelity to get that specific.

It would be easy to determine major appliances like dish washers or washing machines by combing the water + electricity data.

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It would be really tough. Light, random appliance usage, electronics, A/C kicking on and off, ceiling fans, garage door opening, the residents moving out, residents WFH, etc.

Basically things change frequently enough you would struggle to pin down exact things. Sure you know the family runs their dishwasher, Washing machine and Dryer, but you already knew that. This would be a TON of effort for almost no return. Also the competency and skills required would far exceed what one would suspect for a government employee.

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This is signal theory 101. The only question is sample interval. At 15 min the data will be noisy. If the sample rate is switched to 1 min the data would be super easy to filter. This does not take a super skilled person.

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I have seen data methodologies like that applied to residential customer usage in Texas. The takeaway is and has always been this is the general shape. The data is too random to be properly normalized so it becomes extremely difficult to extract details like you are talking about. Only the strictest of OCD time people will live and operate in a way to glean that information off of them.

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current data does not have a high enough sample rate to do better than provide a shape. The more the sample rate increases the more information that can be extracted.

texagbeliever said:

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AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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DD88 said:

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3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.

---

Actually this is fairly easy to do since appliances have specific power draw over time. It would be fairly easy to train a neural network to detect the usage patterns of specific appliances. The only question is if using a 15 minute average can give enough fidelity to get that specific.

It would be easy to determine major appliances like dish washers or washing machines by combing the water + electricity data.

---

It would be really tough. Light, random appliance usage, electronics, A/C kicking on and off, ceiling fans, garage door opening, the residents moving out, residents WFH, etc.

Basically things change frequently enough you would struggle to pin down exact things. Sure you know the family runs their dishwasher, Washing machine and Dryer, but you already knew that. This would be a TON of effort for almost no return. Also the competency and skills required would far exceed what one would suspect for a government employee.

---

This is signal theory 101. The only question is sample interval. At 15 min the data will be noisy. If the sample rate is switched to 1 min the data would be super easy to filter. This does not take a super skilled person.

---

I have seen data methodologies like that applied to residential customer usage in Texas. The takeaway is and has always been this is the general shape. The data is too random to be properly normalized so it becomes extremely difficult to extract details like you are talking about. Only the strictest of OCD time people will live and operate in a way to glean that information off of them.

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This is not true if you analyze the data locally and then report it hourly, 15min, 1 min, etc.

A meter could definitively identify an A/C kicking on and then report it when the meter was polled hourly.

Revolting development

Simple fear: Based on usage, you can probably tell if someone is home. Build a pattern and let your cousin the thief know which house it is. This is bad data.

texagbeliever said:

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AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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DD88 said:

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3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.

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Actually this is fairly easy to do since appliances have specific power draw over time. It would be fairly easy to train a neural network to detect the usage patterns of specific appliances. The only question is if using a 15 minute average can give enough fidelity to get that specific.

It would be easy to determine major appliances like dish washers or washing machines by combing the water + electricity data.

---

It would be really tough. Light, random appliance usage, electronics, A/C kicking on and off, ceiling fans, garage door opening, the residents moving out, residents WFH, etc.

Basically things change frequently enough you would struggle to pin down exact things. Sure you know the family runs their dishwasher, Washing machine and Dryer, but you already knew that. This would be a TON of effort for almost no return. Also the competency and skills required would far exceed what one would suspect for a government employee.

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Frequent changes actually helps because it produces more variance and information about what you're looking at. If I'm looking at 15 minute blocks of time, I need a lot of variance to try to pin down what's in those blocks.

A neural network is not a great solution here because there's really no way to train it. You need some kind of loss function, or essentially, "You got this right and this wrong," in order to train the network. Otherwise it's like randomly giving a kid candy every time they do anything, good or bad, and then wondering why their behavior is so ****ed up. You'd need something more along the lines of signals analysis to pick apart the individual signals created by individual appliances turning on and off.

The biggest problem and why this is probably not technically feasible is that there's not enough granularity to do the kind of analysis you'd need to do. Smart meters report in 15 minute intervals. There are many technical reasons for this, mainly that shorter intervals necessitate more data storage and increase the volume and velocity of incoming data with no discernible benefit. That said, they're probably not going to report in shorter intervals anytime soon. The 15 minute interval is an issue because so many things like microwaves, toasters, lights, etc are turned on and off in smaller intervals. Lights and a microwave could just as easily be the AC running another 5 minutes within the 15 minute period. The units you're measuring in are larger than what you're trying to measure. It would be like trying to measure bacteria with a tape measure.

Rydyn said:

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texagbeliever said:

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AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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AustinScubaAg said:

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texagbeliever said:

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DD88 said:

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3. Wrong a smart meter doesn't have access to individual appliances.

---

Actually this is fairly easy to do since appliances have specific power draw over time. It would be fairly easy to train a neural network to detect the usage patterns of specific appliances. The only question is if using a 15 minute average can give enough fidelity to get that specific.

It would be easy to determine major appliances like dish washers or washing machines by combing the water + electricity data.

---

It would be really tough. Light, random appliance usage, electronics, A/C kicking on and off, ceiling fans, garage door opening, the residents moving out, residents WFH, etc.

Basically things change frequently enough you would struggle to pin down exact things. Sure you know the family runs their dishwasher, Washing machine and Dryer, but you already knew that. This would be a TON of effort for almost no return. Also the competency and skills required would far exceed what one would suspect for a government employee.

---

This is signal theory 101. The only question is sample interval. At 15 min the data will be noisy. If the sample rate is switched to 1 min the data would be super easy to filter. This does not take a super skilled person.

---

I have seen data methodologies like that applied to residential customer usage in Texas. The takeaway is and has always been this is the general shape. The data is too random to be properly normalized so it becomes extremely difficult to extract details like you are talking about. Only the strictest of OCD time people will live and operate in a way to glean that information off of them.

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This is not true if you analyze the data locally and then report it hourly, 15min, 1 min, etc.

A meter could definitively identify an A/C kicking on and then report it when the meter was polled hourly.

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They don't work that way. They report kwh, and that's it.

Quote:

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1. What? How does someone knowing your kwh help them steal your identity?

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When there is a social ranking system, going over your allowed usage, you are punished.

IndividualFreedom said:

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Quote:

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1. What? How does someone knowing your kwh help them steal your identity?

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When there is a social ranking system, going over your allowed usage, you are punished.

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Which they can't do with your monthly bill now because...? Exactly how does a smart meter affect this one iota?

Time to call Generac

When they confirm I just turned up the heater at 9:00 PM in January, they'll know I'm walking around my house butt naked.