Being heard at the S.C. today. I would love to get some input from Hawg or any other attorneys, or even just polymaths, illuminati, and members of the cognoscenti who post here as to how the arguments are going, as I will be knee-deep in patients all day. Gracias por su ayuda. Sorry if there is already another thread.

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw (Playwright and political activist, 1856-1950)

This needs to be tossed.
Only Congress can do this, not the president.

Yeah!
Too big to fail!
PPP

https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/live.aspx

The banks *should* be on the hook for making billions of dollars in high risk loans. But that's never how this works is it?

Housing crash all over again. The government and banks work together and create a massive bubble in the name of equality, and taxpayers will be on the hook. Until the federal govt is disallowed from backing loans, this will keep happening. Banks have 0 incentive to run a fiscally responsible operation when they know their losses will all be eaten by uncle Sam

Quote:

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Until the federal govt is disallowed from backing loans, this will keep happening. Banks have 0 incentive to run a fiscally responsible operation when they know their losses will all be eaten by uncle Suga Sam

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FIFY
Universities have been cashing in on this govt money.
More students.
More and higher tuition.
If the govt was not blindly funding this crap, then degrees without a big paycheck would not exist.
Year ago LVNs could do two years a JUCO and make more than rookie teachers.
That might still be true today.

TxTarpon said:

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Yeah!
Too big to fail!
PPP

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Such ignorance. Government told businesses to shut down illegally and in return said they didn't have to pay back the loan. This hurt and is still hurting businesses. Some didn't survive.

Students were told they had to pay it back before they signed.

TxTarpon said:

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Yeah!
Too big to fail!
PPP

---

Such a stupid talking point. When the mom making $60k starts paying in similar amounts to what Brady and Kardashian have paid in for decades, maybe she can get a little taste too. At least they have skin in the game. The people begging for others to pay off their debts do not.

This is the most important trial SCOTUS has heard in a decade.

Not because of this half trillion dollars, but because of precedent. If this is allowed to stand democratic presidents can bankrupt us with reparations, communist programs and any other unapproved agendas they bring to the table

Muktheduck said:

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The banks *should* be on the hook for making billions of dollars in high risk loans. But that's never how this works is it?

Housing crash all over again. The government and banks work together and create a massive bubble in the name of equality, and taxpayers will be on the hook. Until the federal govt is disallowed from backing loans, this will keep happening. Banks have 0 incentive to run a fiscally responsible operation when they know their losses will all be eaten by uncle Sam

---

This is Obama's fault who as part of ACA in 2010 got federal ownership of 90%+ of all school loans. When you have an entity with zero financial fiduciary and never ending pockets this will never get fixed.

Banks have no incentive to not make these loans.

You now have a situation where the government and the banks collude against the taxpayers who have to pay for it

Quote:

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Such ignorance.

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Sorry you are ignorant about too big to fail and PPP.

Quote:

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Government told businesses to shut down illegally and in return said they didn't have to pay back the loan.

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Yep. They signed up for a loan, then got it forgiven.

Quote:

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This hurt and is still hurting businesses. Some didn't survive.

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During too big to fail some needed to go.
Those loans are STILL outstanding.

Quote:

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Students were told they had to pay it back before they signed.

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That does "borrower" mean to you? Not all PPP loans were forgiven.

Quote:

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Such a stupid talking point. When the mom making $60k starts paying in similar amounts to what Brady and Kardashian have paid in for decades, maybe she can get a little taste too. At least they have skin in the game. The people begging for others to pay off their debts do not.

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Like too big to fail? Big handout to GM and unions? Big handout to Obongo's buddies at Goldman Sachs?

Quote:

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Even though Congress passed a $700 billion bailout package during the global financial crisis, some estimates indicate that the U.S. spent, lent, or guaranteed up to $12.8 trillion to rescue the economy. LInk

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Thank you US taxpayers.

YouBet said:

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Muktheduck said:

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The banks *should* be on the hook for making billions of dollars in high risk loans. But that's never how this works is it?

Housing crash all over again. The government and banks work together and create a massive bubble in the name of equality, and taxpayers will be on the hook. Until the federal govt is disallowed from backing loans, this will keep happening. Banks have 0 incentive to run a fiscally responsible operation when they know their losses will all be eaten by uncle Sam

---

This is Obama's fault who as part of ACA in 2010 got federal ownership of 90%+ of all school loans. When you have an entity with zero financial fiduciary and never ending pockets this will never get fixed.

Banks have no incentive to not make these loans.

---

And, colleges have no incentive to stop raising tuition.

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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Such ignorance.

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Sorry you are ignorant about too big to fail and PPP.

Quote:

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Government told businesses to shut down illegally and in return said they didn't have to pay back the loan.

---

Yep. They signed up for a loan, then got it forgiven.

Quote:

---

This hurt and is still hurting businesses. Some didn't survive.

---

During too big to fail some needed to go.
Those loans are STILL outstanding.

Quote:

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Students were told they had to pay it back before they signed.

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That does "borrower" mean to you? Not all PPP loans were forgiven.

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If you want to die on the hill that compares businesses illegally shut down to students voluntarily taking out a loan, then by all means. You will be lonely.

FrioAg 00 said:

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This is the most important trial SCOTUS has heard in a decade.

Not because of this half trillion dollars, but because of precedent. If this is allowed to stand democratic presidents can bankrupt us with reparations, communist programs and any other unapproved agendas they bring to the table

---

Absolutely. Just define something as an "emergency" and you can change anyone's responsibility to abide by a financial contract of any type. WAY too much power given to the Executive Branch.

The loans should be "forgivable" like every other debt in bankruptcy. Fedgov made a deal with the banks to allow everyone (read 'underwater basket weaving gender studies majors') to qualify for student loans in exchange for them not being dismissible through bankruptcy. Now the banks are guaranteed to get their money back with interest even if it has to come from destroying the value of savings (inflation).

We have some friends who are younger than us. We agree on about everything except money. They, as a couple, are always buying toys, cars, new motorcycle to upgrade and sell, old car to engine swap, etc. They probably make 130k-150k a year combined salary but you wouldn't really know it based upon the junk they buy ironically.

They are all about biden paying off their student loans. We hear about how they can't wait to go on another vacation, upgrade the wife's car, etc. I've tried to convince them to reign in their spending, pay off their debts, put money in the stock market, set it and forget it but it just goes in one ear out the other. The husband lost money trying to play short term investor. He doesn't trust it now. And besides, maxing out your 401k means 21k less to play with.

Just infuriating. Wife has told me to not bring up money around them anymore or it'll ruin the friendship.

one MEEN Ag said:

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We have some friends who are younger than us. We agree on about everything except money. They, as a couple, are always buying toys, cars, new motorcycle to upgrade and sell, old car to engine swap, etc. They probably make 130k-150k a year combined salary but you wouldn't really know it based upon the junk they buy ironically.

They are all about biden paying off their student loans. We hear about how they can't wait to go on another vacation, upgrade the wife's car, etc. I've tried to convince them to reign in their spending, pay off their debts, put money in the stock market, set it and forget it but it just goes in one ear out the other. The husband lost money trying to play short term investor. He doesn't trust it now. And besides, maxing out your 401k means 21k less to play with.

Just infuriating. Wife has told me to not bring up money around them anymore or it'll ruin the friendship.

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They must not have read this as children.

duffelpud said:

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The loans should be "forgivable" like every other debt in bankruptcy. Fedgov made a deal with the banks to allow everyone (read 'underwater basket weaving gender studies majors') to qualify for student loans in exchange for them not being dismissible through bankruptcy. Now the banks are guaranteed to get their money back with interest even if it has to come from destroying the value of savings (inflation).

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What asset can you seize to make the lender whole? Homes and cars are collateral that can be seized and repurposed. Uncollateralized debt cannot, and that is why credit cards are 25%+.

If anything, student loans have too cheap of an interest rate compared to the risk. You make loans dischargeable and the interest rate has to skyrocket.

Quote:

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If you want to die on the hill that compares businesses illegally shut down to students voluntarily taking out a loan, then by all means. You will be lonely.

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I'm not dying on any hill.
SCOTUS will toss this since Sleepy Joe overstepped.
Only Congress can pass bills to do this.
If you want to die on the hill for Obongo giving his cronies our cash, then by all means.
You won't be lonely. Lots of lefty friends will be with you.

one MEEN Ag said:

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We have some friends who are younger than us. We agree on about everything except money. They, as a couple, are always buying toys, cars, new motorcycle to upgrade and sell, old car to engine swap, etc. They probably make 130k-150k a year combined salary but you wouldn't really know it based upon the junk they buy ironically.

They are all about biden paying off their student loans. We hear about how they can't wait to go on another vacation, upgrade the wife's car, etc. I've tried to convince them to reign in their spending, pay off their debts, put money in the stock market, set it and forget it but it just goes in one ear out the other. The husband lost money trying to play short term investor. He doesn't trust it now. And besides, maxing out your 401k means 21k less to play with.

Just infuriating. Wife has told me to not bring up money around them anymore or it'll ruin the friendship.

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I promise you, you won't change their mind. I have a little bit of this in my blood but thankfully the thought of being broke far outweighs the "new toy" in me. I've tried to council numerous employees of mine on spending habits and saving but it never works. It doesn't matter how much money they make either, it will just be bigger and more expensive toys. There is zero saving.

Kool said:

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Being heard at the S.C. today. I would love to get some input from Hawg or any other attorneys, or even just polymaths, illuminati, and members of the cognoscenti who post here as to how the arguments are going, as I will be knee-deep in patients all day. Gracias por su ayuda. Sorry if there is already another thread.

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Not a lawyer, but it will be a hard case to prove that the state would be damaged, before any damages have been incurred.

Muktheduck said:

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The banks *should* be on the hook for making billions of dollars in high risk loans. But that's never how this works is it?

Housing crash all over again. The government and banks work together and create a massive bubble in the name of equality, and taxpayers will be on the hook. Until the federal govt is disallowed from backing loans, this will keep happening. Banks have 0 incentive to run a fiscally responsible operation when they know their losses will all be eaten by uncle Sam

---

You frankly don't know what you are talking about.

"Obama took away the roles of the private banks in making loans. For this exact reason.

Irresponsibility: A new report finds that 27.3% of student loans are delinquent. Why does this matter? Because thanks to President Obama, about $1 trillion dollars of student loan debt is owed to the federal government.

Obama keeps trying to portray the student loan crisis as a problem suffered by students burdened by a mountain of debt when they graduate, and who are unable to make enough money to pay it back.

But that's not the real crisis.

First, average student loan debt is only a little over $20,000. A student who gave up his $5-a-day Starbucks habit could pay off the principal in about a decade.

Second, despite the endless hue and cry about rising tuitions, the amount students actually pay to go to college net of grants, aid, discounts, and what not has barely budged, according to the College Board.

The problem isn't even that, at nearly $1.2 trillion, the total amount of student loan debt now exceeds that of auto loans or credit card debt.

The real crisis is one Obama himself manufactured since taking office.

In 2010, Obama eliminated the federal guaranteed loan program, which let private lenders offer student loans at low interest rates. Now, the Department of Education is the only place to go for such loans."

duffelpud said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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We have some friends who are younger than us. We agree on about everything except money. They, as a couple, are always buying toys, cars, new motorcycle to upgrade and sell, old car to engine swap, etc. They probably make 130k-150k a year combined salary but you wouldn't really know it based upon the junk they buy ironically.

They are all about biden paying off their student loans. We hear about how they can't wait to go on another vacation, upgrade the wife's car, etc. I've tried to convince them to reign in their spending, pay off their debts, put money in the stock market, set it and forget it but it just goes in one ear out the other. The husband lost money trying to play short term investor. He doesn't trust it now. And besides, maxing out your 401k means 21k less to play with.

Just infuriating. Wife has told me to not bring up money around them anymore or it'll ruin the friendship.

---

They must not have read this as children.

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You know, the funny thing is I know they have.

They just don't see themselves as the grasshopper. They see themselves as hardworking ants who just want to enjoy what they've worked for.

They always think they can just sell assets off in times of need. Or that both of them will be able to work long, fruitful careers. There is no thought that they are one layoff away from serious financial issues.

They do have a newborn. The gears are finally turning. But the new car note will be with them until that kid is in 2nd grade.

My business was not "illegally" shut down. Circa April 2020 I, like everyone else, had no idea how everything was going to shake out and was legitimately worried that a few months with 50% of revenue from forecast meant in 6 months we wouldn't be able to make payroll. So we applied for PPP, got a "loan", never really needed it because the doomsday scenarios didn't pan out, and then had our loan forgiven. That's how you get inflation and unsustainable debt, but I digress. Point being the government has given businesses bailouts that didn't need them, so I would die on that hill.

The hill I would die on is the "free" part of all of this. No bailouts, ever, period end of story. Loans maybe if we're at the edge of a cliff, but never 'free' money from the government to taxpayers with no expectation of repayment. I am not opposed to interest modification (7% is bananas, make it SOFR and call it a day) or service related forgiveness (join the military, nurse in rural America for x years, teach in the hood and show academic growth from students > 1 year). At least the taxpayer gets their moneys worth if people do valuable and thankless services for the country.

"No Notice and Comment Proceedings" held before Brandon made this decree.
Which Justice was that bringing this up? Only catching bits and pieces of this, and I don't recognize their voices by and large. TIA
Edit: Roberts sounding as if he is NOT on board with pushing this bit of regulation through through Executive Branch instead of Legislative Branch. Uses two siblings, one takes out a loan to start a lawn care, the other takes out a loan to go to college. Why does the lawn care sibling have to pay taxes and pay the sibling's college loans???

gotsand said:

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YouBet said:

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Muktheduck said:

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The banks *should* be on the hook for making billions of dollars in high risk loans. But that's never how this works is it?

Housing crash all over again. The government and banks work together and create a massive bubble in the name of equality, and taxpayers will be on the hook. Until the federal govt is disallowed from backing loans, this will keep happening. Banks have 0 incentive to run a fiscally responsible operation when they know their losses will all be eaten by uncle Sam

---

This is Obama's fault who as part of ACA in 2010 got federal ownership of 90%+ of all school loans. When you have an entity with zero financial fiduciary and never ending pockets this will never get fixed.

Banks have no incentive to not make these loans.

---

And, colleges have no incentive to stop raising tuition.

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Or to stop indoctrinating students. We move farther and farther to the left. This props up leftism at every level.

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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If you want to die on the hill that compares businesses illegally shut down to students voluntarily taking out a loan, then by all means. You will be lonely.

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I'm not dying on any hill.
SCOTUS will toss this since Sleepy Joe overstepped.
Only Congress can pass bills to do this.
If you want to die on the hill for Obongo giving his cronies our cash, then by all means.
You won't be lonely. Lots of lefty friends will be with you.

---

We need to get rid of all bail outs. One, we can't afford it, two, it incentivizes people and companies to do the wrong things, and three, live with the consequences of your own actions so you learn. If it means businesses go bankrupt, fine. If it means people go bankrupt, fine. Overtime we all be a lot better off without government bailouts of any kind.

Kool said:

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"No Notice and Comment Proceedings" held before Brandon made this decree.
Which Justice was that bringing this up? Only catching bits and pieces of this, and I don't recognize their voices by and large. TIA
Edit: Roberts sounding as if he is NOT on board with pushing this bit of regulation through through Executive Branch instead of Legislative Branch. Uses two siblings, one takes out a loan to start a lawn care, the other takes out a loan to go to college. Why does the lawn care sibling have to pay taxes and pay the sibling's college loans???

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I THINK it was Gorsuch.

Kansas Kid said:

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TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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If you want to die on the hill that compares businesses illegally shut down to students voluntarily taking out a loan, then by all means. You will be lonely.

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I'm not dying on any hill.
SCOTUS will toss this since Sleepy Joe overstepped.
Only Congress can pass bills to do this.
If you want to die on the hill for Obongo giving his cronies our cash, then by all means.
You won't be lonely. Lots of lefty friends will be with you.

---

We need to get rid of all bail outs. One, we can't afford it, two, it incentivizes people and companies to do the wrong things, and three, live with the consequences of your own actions so you learn. If it means businesses go bankrupt, fine. If it means people go bankrupt, fine. Overtime we all be a lot better off without government bailouts of any kind.

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The Libertarian streak in me agrees with this. The only contrary I might bring up is that, in the case of COVID, it was government mandates, not the natural market forces, that shut down many of the businesses that received PPP benefits. AND, forgiveness was not carte blanche, it was predicated upon proof of maintenance of FTE levels by any company seeking loan forgiveness. But I totally get this point.