Never forget!

USA! USA!

Japan FAAFO

Today is my dad, C Armor 58, 88th birthday!!

Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

This date is important for sure. God Bless our men and women who serve and protect our freedoms.

Kenneth_2003 said:

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Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

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an interesting theory has been around for those experts who really follow history:

that perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor was the worst possible mistake the Japanese could have made. Not because it angered the Americans, but because it allowed the US Navy to recover and repair most of the ships in the shallow port.

if the Japanese would have invaded the Phillipines after declaring war, they likely could have bombed our entire Pacific fleet as they rushed north, and they would have sunk into 1,000 foot pacific waters.

Had the opportunity to visit earlier this year, had a book made up of some of the photos we took. I'll never forget it!

LMCane said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

---

an interesting theory has been around for those experts who really follow history:

that perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor was the worst possible mistake the Japanese could have made. Not because it angered the Americans, but because it allowed the US Navy to recover and repair most of the ships in the shallow port.

if the Japanese would have invaded the Phillipines after declaring war, they likely could have bombed our entire Pacific fleet as they rushed north, and they would have sunk into 1,000 foot pacific waters.

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Would the attack been as effective when then fleet was fully manned and loaded, with the understanding that they were going to war?

Seems like you trade the shallow port problem for significantly more strategic disadvantages. Just my opinion, but is that something considered in this theoretical scenario?

If you don't know who Dorie Miller is then you need to read this today:

Doris "Dorie" Miller - Pearl Harbor

He is getting a Gerald Ford class carrier named after him.

Engine10 said:

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Had the opportunity to visit earlier this year, had a book made up of some of the photos we took. I'll never forget it!

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Been a few times, would recommend every American go once.

Don't forget that the USS Arizona "live" tweets the moments of that day. Incredible pictures every year.

Pearl Harbor from the air a few months prior to the attack on December 7th showing the entire harbor, Ford Island and Hickam Field. #PearlHarbor81 pic.twitter.com/3jnwjcUQOW

— USS Arizona (@USSArizona) December 7, 2022

Went in 1996 with my grandparents. It was a very somber experience indeed.

Not Coach Jimbo said:

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LMCane said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

---

an interesting theory has been around for those experts who really follow history:

that perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor was the worst possible mistake the Japanese could have made. Not because it angered the Americans, but because it allowed the US Navy to recover and repair most of the ships in the shallow port.

if the Japanese would have invaded the Phillipines after declaring war, they likely could have bombed our entire Pacific fleet as they rushed north, and they would have sunk into 1,000 foot pacific waters.

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Would the attack been as effective when then fleet was fully manned and loaded, with the understanding that they were going to war?

Seems like you trade the shallow port problem for significantly more strategic disadvantages. Just my opinion, but is that something considered in this theoretical scenario?

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I think the theory is that our Battleships were not as good as the Japanese battleships, and our carrier flight crews were not as good as the enemy

so the Japanese could have done to us in late 1941 what we did to them in June 1942 at Midway-

wait with their carriers to the northeast of the Philipines and ambush our fleet as it steamed north from Pearl Harbor

Squadron7 said:

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If you don't know who Dorie Miller is then you need to read this today:

Doris "Dorie" Miller - Pearl Harbor

He is getting a Gerald Ford class carrier named after him.

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NM, probably too "un-PC"

Squadron7 said:

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If you don't know who Dorie Miller is then you need to read this today:

Doris "Dorie" Miller - Pearl Harbor

He is getting a Gerald Ford class carrier named after him.

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And Congress needs to do their job and upgrade his Navy Cross to the Medal of Honor.

LMCane said:

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Not Coach Jimbo said:

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LMCane said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

---

an interesting theory has been around for those experts who really follow history:

that perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor was the worst possible mistake the Japanese could have made. Not because it angered the Americans, but because it allowed the US Navy to recover and repair most of the ships in the shallow port.

if the Japanese would have invaded the Phillipines after declaring war, they likely could have bombed our entire Pacific fleet as they rushed north, and they would have sunk into 1,000 foot pacific waters.

---

Would the attack been as effective when then fleet was fully manned and loaded, with the understanding that they were going to war?

Seems like you trade the shallow port problem for significantly more strategic disadvantages. Just my opinion, but is that something considered in this theoretical scenario?

---

I think the theory is that our Battleships were not as good as the Japanese battleships, and our carrier flight crews were not as good as the enemy

so the Japanese could have done to us in late 1941 what we did to them in June 1942 at Midway-

wait with their carriers to the northeast of the Philipines and ambush our fleet as it steamed north from Pearl Harbor

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I think Titan might weigh-in on this one.

ABATTBQ87 said:

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Today is my dad, C Armor 58, 88th birthday!!

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Very nice a big happy birthday to him! My grandmother would have been 103 today. She died the week Covid hit at 100 years old and it was a blessing because the elder care facility went on lockdown a couple weeks later so she would have died alone.

She saw my Granddad off to war and she told me for obvious reasons that her 1941 birthday wasn't the greatest memory. He was a Navy man in the Pacific during the war.

There are actually many Navy experts who believe Japan could have won the war or at least done better had they gone to war with an announced declaration on the Phillipines:

"In other words, Japanese forces would have evicted U.S. forces from the Philippine Islands, seized Pacific islands and built airfields there, and employed air and submarine attacks to cut the U.S. Pacific Fleet down to size on its westward voyage to the Philippines' relief.

Interceptive operations would have culminated in a fleet battle somewhere in the Western Pacific.

Japan would have stood a better chance of success had it done so. Its Navy still would have struck American territory to open the war, but it would have done so in far less provocative fashion.

In all likelihood, the American reaction would have proved more mutedand more manageable for Japan."

Japan Could have won the war

LMCane said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

---

an interesting theory has been around for those experts who really follow history:

that perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor was the worst possible mistake the Japanese could have made. Not because it angered the Americans, but because it allowed the US Navy to recover and repair most of the ships in the shallow port.

if the Japanese would have invaded the Phillipines after declaring war, they likely could have bombed our entire Pacific fleet as they rushed north, and they would have sunk into 1,000 foot pacific waters.

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They DID invade Philippines!

LMCane said:

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There are actually many Navy experts who believe Japan could have won the war or at least done better had they gone to war with an announced declaration on the Phillipines:

"In other words, Japanese forces would have evicted U.S. forces from the Philippine Islands, seized Pacific islands and built airfields there, and employed air and submarine attacks to cut the U.S. Pacific Fleet down to size on its westward voyage to the Philippines' relief.

Interceptive operations would have culminated in a fleet battle somewhere in the Western Pacific.

Japan would have stood a better chance of success had it done so. Its Navy still would have struck American territory to open the war, but it would have done so in far less provocative fashion.

In all likelihood, the American reaction would have proved more mutedand more manageable for Japan."

Japan Could have won the war

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Define "Japan winning the war".

My grandfather was 19 in December of 1941 and when the news reached his parents' Mississippi farm the next day, his dad gathered him and his two brothers together and talked to them about what it had felt like to fight in a war, what it meant to honor their country, and what it meant to stand up and fight for freedom no matter the cost.

He left them to decide for themselves. By sundown, all three brothers had decided to volunteer for the US Army. The next morning, their dad drove them to them to Oxford, the nearest town with a military presence. What they saw brought tears to their eyes and stiffened their backs with resolve. Hundred and hundreds of other young men had made the same decision to volunteer.

My grandfather fought in Italy and Africa, won a Purple Heart, and survived to come back home. The kid from Oxford wound up in Washington D.C. after the war ended, and in 1945 he went to a dance one night, saw a striking young woman who was in the Navy WAVES and told his two best buddies, "If she says yes when I ask her to dance, I'm going to marry her."

That was my grandmother.

BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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LMCane said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

---

an interesting theory has been around for those experts who really follow history:

that perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor was the worst possible mistake the Japanese could have made. Not because it angered the Americans, but because it allowed the US Navy to recover and repair most of the ships in the shallow port.

if the Japanese would have invaded the Phillipines after declaring war, they likely could have bombed our entire Pacific fleet as they rushed north, and they would have sunk into 1,000 foot pacific waters.

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They DID invade Philippines!

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Obviously.

the point is that they bombed Manila AFTER they bombed Pearl Harbor.

our military was so inept, it was a full 8 hours later and our military was still completely unprepared with our planes lined up neatly on the runways!

the point to alternative history is that if Japan had simply declared war in the morning and then gone after Corregidor following an announced declaration of war,

they would have been able to achieve their tactical goals while simultaneously not sending the American population into a frenzy of wanting revenge at any price.

The Porkchop Express said:

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My grandfather was 19 in December of 1941 and when the news reached his parents' Mississippi farm the next day, his dad gathered him and his two brothers together and talked to them about what it had felt like to fight in a war, what it meant to honor their country, and what it meant to stand up and fight for freedom no matter the cost.

He left them to decide for themselves. By sundown, all three brothers had decided to volunteer for the US Army. The next morning, their dad drove them to them to Oxford, the nearest town with a military presence. What they saw brought tears to their eyes and stiffened their backs with resolve. Hundred and hundreds of other young men had made the same decision to volunteer.

My grandfather fought in Italy and Africa, won a Purple Heart, and survived to come back home. The kid from Oxford wound up in Washington D.C. after the war ended, and in 1945 he went to a dance one night, saw a striking young woman who was in the Navy WAVES and told his two best buddies, "If she says yes when I ask her to dance, I'm going to marry her."

That was my grandmother.

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So.....did he marry her?

America was a great nation. RIP

TexAgs91 said:

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America was a great nation. RIP

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We still produce plenty of these guys....the ProgLeft's attempts to brand them as toxic notwithstanding.

LMCane said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

---

an interesting theory has been around for those experts who really follow history:

that perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor was the worst possible mistake the Japanese could have made. Not because it angered the Americans, but because it allowed the US Navy to recover and repair most of the ships in the shallow port.

if the Japanese would have invaded the Phillipines after declaring war, they likely could have bombed our entire Pacific fleet as they rushed north, and they would have sunk into 1,000 foot pacific waters.

---

The aircraft carriers not being present at Pearl and the failure of the Japanese to bomb the massive fuel farms located around Pear Harbor doomed the attack. While Dec 7 was a huge setback for the US it was not close to being the knock out blow the Japanese had hoped for.

Squadron7 said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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America was a great nation. RIP

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We still produce plenty of these guys....the ProgLeft's attempts to brand them as toxic notwithstanding.

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I know they are there. We'll need them.

PanzerAggie06 said:

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LMCane said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

---

an interesting theory has been around for those experts who really follow history:

that perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor was the worst possible mistake the Japanese could have made. Not because it angered the Americans, but because it allowed the US Navy to recover and repair most of the ships in the shallow port.

if the Japanese would have invaded the Phillipines after declaring war, they likely could have bombed our entire Pacific fleet as they rushed north, and they would have sunk into 1,000 foot pacific waters.

---

The aircraft carriers not being present at Pearl and the failure of the Japanese to bomb the massive fuel farms located around Pear Harbor doomed the attack. While Dec 7 was a huge setback for the US it was not close to being the knock out blow the Japanese had hoped for.

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Japan was never going to defeat us in any protracted conflict. They knew this.

Their highest hope was to bloody us enough to let them keep a bunch of territory on the other side of the world that Americans had never heard of. They wanted to run their hemisphere.

It didn't work out for them.

The battleships being largely salvaged and refitted didn't change the outcome. They were largely irrelevant by the time they were put back in service, so having them sunk in deep water wouldn't have helped significantly. Japan still lost the war without the use of the old battleships.

Squadron7 said:

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PanzerAggie06 said:

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LMCane said:

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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Currently reading raising the fleet

Goes into the details that went into the salvage operations to get the fleet back to sea.

---

an interesting theory has been around for those experts who really follow history:

that perhaps the attack on Pearl Harbor was the worst possible mistake the Japanese could have made. Not because it angered the Americans, but because it allowed the US Navy to recover and repair most of the ships in the shallow port.

if the Japanese would have invaded the Phillipines after declaring war, they likely could have bombed our entire Pacific fleet as they rushed north, and they would have sunk into 1,000 foot pacific waters.

---

The aircraft carriers not being present at Pearl and the failure of the Japanese to bomb the massive fuel farms located around Pear Harbor doomed the attack. While Dec 7 was a huge setback for the US it was not close to being the knock out blow the Japanese had hoped for.

---

Japan was never going to defeat us in any protracted conflict. They knew this.

Their highest hope was to bloody us enough to let them keep a bunch of territory on the other side of the world that Americans had never heard of. They wanted to run their hemisphere.

It didn't work out for them.

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Which dovetails with my contention- if the Japanese would have struck British bases in Malaya, Hong Kong, and US bases in Guam and the Marianas and the Phillipines

no one in the USA would have much cared about it. sure we would have gone to war, but the main effort would have been against the Germans and basically would have ignored the Pacific.

the Japanese could have stalled in the Pacific for a few years and there would have been a negotiated settlement. by bombing Oahu, they doomed themselves to the atomic bomb.