BASF/German chemical industry might lay off 40K (if gas is cut off)

6,473 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Marcus Brutus
nortex97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Pretty serious, interesting to note some realistic Germans who realize they can't replace the 40-50% of natural gas from Russia in the next 2 years:

Quote:

One worst-case scenario involves the world's largest chemical firm BASF, whose main chemical production site in the western city of Ludwigshafen would have to be partially or fully shut down.

President of Germany's IG BCE chemical workers union Michael Vassiliadis, who also sits on BASF's supervisory board, said around 40,000 employees would have to be put on short-time working hours or laid off.

"The consequences would not only be reduced work hours and job losses, but also the rapid collapse of the industrial production chains in Europe with worldwide consequences," Vassiliadis added.

Christian Kullmann, head of the German Chemical Industry Association (VCI), also warned that chemical plants are so complex, they "can't just be switched off and on again like a microwave oven."

"Once chemical plants are shut down, they remain silent for weeks and months," he stressed. Kullmann, who is also head of the specialty chemicals company Evonik, said the disruption would have a "huge domino effect through almost all industries."

The chemical sector is a critical part of Germany's export-oriented economy as most industries cannot do without chemical products, including car manufacturers, pharmaceutical producers and construction firms.

Natural gas is also used both as a source of energy and as a raw material by chemical producers. No other sector utilizes more of Germany's gas supply than the chemical sector, at about 15%.
Two years needed to cut reliance on Russia

Despite promises to cut its reliance on Russian gas the share stood at more than 50% before the invasion and has since fallen to roughly 40% Habeck claimed that Germany is unlikely to find enough alternative sources until mid-2024.

Announcing the emergency alert system Wednesday, he said Germany's gas storage facilities are currently filled to about 25% capacity.

"The question of how long the gas will last basically depends on several factors (such as) consumption and weather,'' he said. "If there's a lot of heating, then the storage facilities will be emptied.''
Habeck, who is also vice-chancellor, appealed to private consumers and businesses to cut their energy use, adding: "We are in a situation where every kilowatt-hour saved helps."
"Just go buy a tesla" perhaps Pete Buttigieg could help them out. More:

Quote:

But in the meantime, Brudermuller described that "It's not enough that we all turn down the heating by 2 degrees now" given that "Russia covers 55 percent of German natural gas consumption." He emphasized that if Russian gas disappeared overnight, "many things would collapse here" - given that "we would have high levels of unemployment, and many companies would go bankrupt. This would lead to irreversible damage." He continued:
Quote:

"To put it bluntly: This could bring the German economy into its worst crisis since the end of the Second World War and destroy our prosperity. For many small and medium-sized companies in particular, it could mean the end. We can't risk that!"
The dire warning of coming disaster in the event Russian gas is shut off came in response being questioned over whether it's at all possible to abandon Russian energy.

Asserting that this issue is not "black and white" - and that the German economy stands on the brink of catastrophe, the BASF CEO said that if this standoff continues to escalate it will "open the eyes of many on both sides"...

Below is the question posed by the newspaper, and Brudermuller's response:
Quote:

And what if, for example, Putin's demand for payment in rubles leads to an immediate stop in gas supplies?

"A delivery stop for a short time would perhaps open the eyes of many - on both sides. It would make clear the magnitude of the consequences. But if we don't get any more Russian gas for a long time, then we really have a problem here in Germany. At BASF, we would have to scale back or completely shut down production at our largest site in Ludwigshafen if the supply fell significantly and permanently below 50 percent of our maximum natural gas requirement. Minister Habeck has already activated the early warning level of the gas emergency plan."
Separate sources estimate that at Ludwigshafen alone this scenario would immediately lead to some 40,000 employees being possibly laid off, or at least put on short-time working hours.
And…here…we….go. In all seriousness, Putin needs the money, it sounds like he won't close the pipelines, for now.
YouBet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
That right there is a high stakes game of chicken.
Marcus Brutus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
There is an easy solution...

Buy ****ing rubles and pay the man.

I'm not willing to sacrifice a single thing for Ukraine. Screw the flag flyers and virtue signalers.
Funky Winkerbean
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Democrats should be ashamed of themselves.
My Name Is Judge
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I bet mayor pete could figure out the best solution for the germs if we send him over

I would suggest Kamala but she's still working the us border where her current progress is 0%
nortex97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Funky Winkerbean said:

Democrats should be ashamed of themselves.
LOL, Democrats, like all communists, have no shame at all.
MookieBlaylock
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Marcus Brutus said:

There is an easy solution...

Buy ****ing rubles and pay the man.

I'm not willing to sacrifice a single thing for Ukraine. Screw the flag flyers and virtue signalers.


Pay zat man his monay
Buying_time
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Queue Germans laughing at Trump in 2018. Need to keep this at the top to show the hypocrisy of MSM and arrogance of the elite that were suckered in by Putin.

https://amp.dailycaller.com/2022/03/07/donald-trump-warned-united-nation-relying-russian-oil-german-delegation-laughed


G. hirsutum Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
This will hurt the ag sector badly. Basf provides some fantastic chemistry for us. We were hopeful that fertilizer prices would come down but they are still extremely high with the Russia embargo. The American people will be paying for this for years
itsyourboypookie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Maybe the politicians that laughed at trump will hire them
MaxPower
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Can someone explain to me why Germany hasn't invested in nuclear like France? Is it continuation of WW2 shame and not wanting the appearance of nuclear armament? I'm a bit surprised the legacy east Germany region doesn't have more considering how big the Russians were on it.
nortex97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
G. hirsutum Ag said:

This will hurt the ag sector badly. Basf provides some fantastic chemistry for us. We were hopeful that fertilizer prices would come down but they are still extremely high with the Russia embargo. The American people will be paying for this for years
I do think most of the agricultural BASF products are not made in Germany, but your point is still very valid/true.
Marcus Brutus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MaxPower said:

Can someone explain to me why Germany hasn't invested in nuclear like France? Is it continuation of WW2 shame and not wanting the appearance of nuclear armament? I'm a bit surprised the legacy east Germany region doesn't have more considering how big the Russians were on it.


They had nuclear power plants. They shut them down to pursue Unicorn energy.

This is from January

"Germany on Friday shut down half of the six nuclear plants it still has in operation, a year before the country draws the final curtain on its decades-long use of atomic power."
DallasAg 94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
DallasAg 94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
twk
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Marcus Brutus said:

MaxPower said:

Can someone explain to me why Germany hasn't invested in nuclear like France? Is it continuation of WW2 shame and not wanting the appearance of nuclear armament? I'm a bit surprised the legacy east Germany region doesn't have more considering how big the Russians were on it.


They had nuclear power plants. They shut them down to pursue Unicorn energy.

This is from January

"Germany on Friday shut down half of the six nuclear plants it still has in operation, a year before the country draws the final curtain on its decades-long use of atomic power."
This, and the fact that the Germans believed they could turn Russia into a reliable business partner by engaging with them. German business is much more integrated with Russian business than any of the other large European economies. So, buying a large percentage of their gas from Russia never occurred to them as being a problem.
nortex97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Countries led by childless leaders with no real vested interest in the long term future of the country…I think are likely to be sold out/betrayed. But the Germans ate up the green energy propaganda and the Christian Democrats happily played along with any anti-American attitude they could take for decades.

Germans eating up propaganda is kind of a long term thing, for them. At least Bismarck had a few kids.
Madman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Elastomer production will take a hit.

Every device with a seal in it would be affected.
oneeyedag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Someone find the names of those two goons, especially the kid on the right with poop-eating grin on his face.
FJB
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Buffoons in charge.
Who is John Galt?

2026
nortex97
How long do you want to ignore this user?
They have a long history of thinking Russia could be tamed via various means. Lenin was sent in a car with no windows there by Germans so he wouldn't get his propaganda/lies out in Germany on the way.

They partnered extensively with Stalin in the intra-war period to develop things like tanks etc (under the auspices of 'tractors.')

During the cold war they didn't have any independence really to do so, but since that fell they have just considered Russia a 'better' partner than anything America could offer/do for them.

Still, the original BTO, predecessor to nato, was to counter the future threat of either/both Germany and the Soviets.
goatchze
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Once again, people fail to appreciate how vital hydrocarbons are to modern life. People think of natural gas as a source of heat and electricity, and that's it. Meanwhile, a full third of US natural gas production is used in the industrial sector.

I've been to Ludwigshafen many times. It's an amazing facility. Even I never considered where their feedstocks were coming from (Russia).
YouBet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Meanwhile, France gets 70% of their power from nuclear and is an exporter.

France now the leading nation in mainland Europe.
FJB
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Who is John Galt?

2026
sharpdressedman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Putin has Europe by its energy dependent throat. I anticipate he will punish the EU members as "unfriendly states," regardless of how it hurts Russia. IMO, he is that desperate and vindictive over his invasion being a colossal failure.
Faustus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
nortex97 said:

Pretty serious, interesting to note some realistic Germans who realize they can't replace the 40-50% of natural gas from Russia in the next 2 years:

Quote:

One worst-case scenario involves the world's largest chemical firm BASF, whose main chemical production site in the western city of Ludwigshafen would have to be partially or fully shut down.

President of Germany's IG BCE chemical workers union Michael Vassiliadis, who also sits on BASF's supervisory board, said around 40,000 employees would have to be put on short-time working hours or laid off.

"The consequences would not only be reduced work hours and job losses, but also the rapid collapse of the industrial production chains in Europe with worldwide consequences," Vassiliadis added.

Christian Kullmann, head of the German Chemical Industry Association (VCI), also warned that chemical plants are so complex, they "can't just be switched off and on again like a microwave oven."

"Once chemical plants are shut down, they remain silent for weeks and months," he stressed. Kullmann, who is also head of the specialty chemicals company Evonik, said the disruption would have a "huge domino effect through almost all industries."

The chemical sector is a critical part of Germany's export-oriented economy as most industries cannot do without chemical products, including car manufacturers, pharmaceutical producers and construction firms.

Natural gas is also used both as a source of energy and as a raw material by chemical producers. No other sector utilizes more of Germany's gas supply than the chemical sector, at about 15%.
Two years needed to cut reliance on Russia

Despite promises to cut its reliance on Russian gas the share stood at more than 50% before the invasion and has since fallen to roughly 40% Habeck claimed that Germany is unlikely to find enough alternative sources until mid-2024.

Announcing the emergency alert system Wednesday, he said Germany's gas storage facilities are currently filled to about 25% capacity.

"The question of how long the gas will last basically depends on several factors (such as) consumption and weather,'' he said. "If there's a lot of heating, then the storage facilities will be emptied.''
Habeck, who is also vice-chancellor, appealed to private consumers and businesses to cut their energy use, adding: "We are in a situation where every kilowatt-hour saved helps."
"Just go buy a tesla" perhaps Pete Buttigieg could help them out. More:

Quote:

But in the meantime, Brudermuller described that "It's not enough that we all turn down the heating by 2 degrees now" given that "Russia covers 55 percent of German natural gas consumption." He emphasized that if Russian gas disappeared overnight, "many things would collapse here" - given that "we would have high levels of unemployment, and many companies would go bankrupt. This would lead to irreversible damage." He continued:
Quote:

"To put it bluntly: This could bring the German economy into its worst crisis since the end of the Second World War and destroy our prosperity. For many small and medium-sized companies in particular, it could mean the end. We can't risk that!"
The dire warning of coming disaster in the event Russian gas is shut off came in response being questioned over whether it's at all possible to abandon Russian energy.

Asserting that this issue is not "black and white" - and that the German economy stands on the brink of catastrophe, the BASF CEO said that if this standoff continues to escalate it will "open the eyes of many on both sides"...

Below is the question posed by the newspaper, and Brudermuller's response:
Quote:

And what if, for example, Putin's demand for payment in rubles leads to an immediate stop in gas supplies?

"A delivery stop for a short time would perhaps open the eyes of many - on both sides. It would make clear the magnitude of the consequences. But if we don't get any more Russian gas for a long time, then we really have a problem here in Germany. At BASF, we would have to scale back or completely shut down production at our largest site in Ludwigshafen if the supply fell significantly and permanently below 50 percent of our maximum natural gas requirement. Minister Habeck has already activated the early warning level of the gas emergency plan."
Separate sources estimate that at Ludwigshafen alone this scenario would immediately lead to some 40,000 employees being possibly laid off, or at least put on short-time working hours.
And…here…we….go. In all seriousness, Putin needs the money, it sounds like he won't close the pipelines, for now.


He bluffed, and absent some drastic change in circumstances at worst there will be some sleight of hand in the future in the payment mechanism that allows both to say they stood firm.

Setting aside the ramifications of something Putin hasn't done, as far as crippling strikes, sanctions froze $300 billion of Russia's $640 billion gold and forex reserves.

[url] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-capital-controls-were-tit-for-tat-move-after-reserves-were-frozen-2022-03-25/[/url]

Quote:

. . . The sanctions froze around $300 billion of Russia's $640-billion gold and forex reserves, its finance ministry said earlier in March. . . .


Russia's GDP is around 1.48 trillion, so that $300 billion amounts to around 20% of a year's GDP taken out by sanctions only looking at Russia's reserves, and not taking into account the effect on the economy.



You'd think he'd shut off the gas out of principle given that Europe is arming his foe and helped abscond with 1/5 of Russia's GDP, but his position is too precarious to even try to leverage that I guess. Instead he's reduced to haggling about the currency his enemies will use to pay him for Russia's resources.
Not a Bot
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ABATTBQ11
How long do you want to ignore this user?
MaxPower said:

Can someone explain to me why Germany hasn't invested in nuclear like France? Is it continuation of WW2 shame and not wanting the appearance of nuclear armament? I'm a bit surprised the legacy east Germany region doesn't have more considering how big the Russians were on it.


Natural gas is a feedstock for a lot of chemical processes. Nuclear energy can't make hydrocarbons.
Rossticus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Faustus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Captain Positivity said:




Three days ago it was zero through that pipeline too, although overall shipments were steady.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/russian-gas-flows-europe-remain-steady-2022-03-29/

I find it amusing to read tweets with this in the background, on both sides.





fullback44
How long do you want to ignore this user?
nortex97 said:

Pretty serious, interesting to note some realistic Germans who realize they can't replace the 40-50% of natural gas from Russia in the next 2 years:

Quote:

One worst-case scenario involves the world's largest chemical firm BASF, whose main chemical production site in the western city of Ludwigshafen would have to be partially or fully shut down.

President of Germany's IG BCE chemical workers union Michael Vassiliadis, who also sits on BASF's supervisory board, said around 40,000 employees would have to be put on short-time working hours or laid off.

"The consequences would not only be reduced work hours and job losses, but also the rapid collapse of the industrial production chains in Europe with worldwide consequences," Vassiliadis added.

Christian Kullmann, head of the German Chemical Industry Association (VCI), also warned that chemical plants are so complex, they "can't just be switched off and on again like a microwave oven."

"Once chemical plants are shut down, they remain silent for weeks and months," he stressed. Kullmann, who is also head of the specialty chemicals company Evonik, said the disruption would have a "huge domino effect through almost all industries."

The chemical sector is a critical part of Germany's export-oriented economy as most industries cannot do without chemical products, including car manufacturers, pharmaceutical producers and construction firms.

Natural gas is also used both as a source of energy and as a raw material by chemical producers. No other sector utilizes more of Germany's gas supply than the chemical sector, at about 15%.
Two years needed to cut reliance on Russia

Despite promises to cut its reliance on Russian gas the share stood at more than 50% before the invasion and has since fallen to roughly 40% Habeck claimed that Germany is unlikely to find enough alternative sources until mid-2024.

Announcing the emergency alert system Wednesday, he said Germany's gas storage facilities are currently filled to about 25% capacity.

"The question of how long the gas will last basically depends on several factors (such as) consumption and weather,'' he said. "If there's a lot of heating, then the storage facilities will be emptied.''
Habeck, who is also vice-chancellor, appealed to private consumers and businesses to cut their energy use, adding: "We are in a situation where every kilowatt-hour saved helps."
"Just go buy a tesla" perhaps Pete Buttigieg could help them out. More:

Quote:

But in the meantime, Brudermuller described that "It's not enough that we all turn down the heating by 2 degrees now" given that "Russia covers 55 percent of German natural gas consumption." He emphasized that if Russian gas disappeared overnight, "many things would collapse here" - given that "we would have high levels of unemployment, and many companies would go bankrupt. This would lead to irreversible damage." He continued:
Quote:

"To put it bluntly: This could bring the German economy into its worst crisis since the end of the Second World War and destroy our prosperity. For many small and medium-sized companies in particular, it could mean the end. We can't risk that!"
The dire warning of coming disaster in the event Russian gas is shut off came in response being questioned over whether it's at all possible to abandon Russian energy.

Asserting that this issue is not "black and white" - and that the German economy stands on the brink of catastrophe, the BASF CEO said that if this standoff continues to escalate it will "open the eyes of many on both sides"...

Below is the question posed by the newspaper, and Brudermuller's response:
Quote:

And what if, for example, Putin's demand for payment in rubles leads to an immediate stop in gas supplies?

"A delivery stop for a short time would perhaps open the eyes of many - on both sides. It would make clear the magnitude of the consequences. But if we don't get any more Russian gas for a long time, then we really have a problem here in Germany. At BASF, we would have to scale back or completely shut down production at our largest site in Ludwigshafen if the supply fell significantly and permanently below 50 percent of our maximum natural gas requirement. Minister Habeck has already activated the early warning level of the gas emergency plan."
Separate sources estimate that at Ludwigshafen alone this scenario would immediately lead to some 40,000 employees being possibly laid off, or at least put on short-time working hours.
And…here…we….go. In all seriousness, Putin needs the money, it sounds like he won't close the pipelines, for now.


This would cause a huge problem world wide of this plant is shut down, it's one of it not the biggest chemical complex in the world, I have been to this plant several times, I've never seen industrial site so big, our company was getting some product from this site for years, when Covid started it slowed down, now I hear it's barley running. It's so big that it's more like it's own town, maybe 30,000 employees just at this one site. All the yuppys that like to drive around in BMW and Mercedes can kiss those good by if this happens, those manufacturers rely on products from this site or its downstream customers .. this would.not be good, there are tons of other chemical plants in Germany. Talk about F ing the supply chain even worse .. wars have consequences, they need to stop the the Russian war
fullback44
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Marcus Brutus said:

MaxPower said:

Can someone explain to me why Germany hasn't invested in nuclear like France? Is it continuation of WW2 shame and not wanting the appearance of nuclear armament? I'm a bit surprised the legacy east Germany region doesn't have more considering how big the Russians were on it.


They had nuclear power plants. They shut them down to pursue Unicorn energy.

This is from January

"Germany on Friday shut down half of the six nuclear plants it still has in operation, a year before the country draws the final curtain on its decades-long use of atomic power."


The Russians are / were into German politics big time, many German politicians pushed natural gas because Russia was I. Their pockets, it's not necessarily a bad thing getting natural gas from your neighbor if they have all the energy you need, but the Germans had nuclear power plants for a reason and that's because they don't have all their own energy sources. The EU needs this war to end and to be able to work with Russia for those energy sources. This would be like Texas and Oklahoma invading close by states and the states that need our oil and natural gas having to sanction us by not buying our gas, everyone is screwed when this happens because we need the sales and they need our gas. Sucks that Russia can't get along with Most of the EU.. those countries and nations have been fighting for 2500 years, it's in their blood to start wars .. they went almost 80 years without a major war and then Russia does this, I would bet 80 years is the normal time span for the next generation to forgot about the horrors of war so
They go after "their land" by starting a new war.. it has been going on for several thousand years and it looks like nothing will stop it. Even with all the modern technology, it's in their blood to fight for the land .. that land has traded hands many
Many many times over all those years ..
YouBet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
So I guess we are good here and nothing stopped yet.
AgResearch
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BASF is the sole reason Germany has ***** footed around the response to Russia.

Make no mistake, if gas to BASF gets cut and they have to shut down steam crackers you better hold onto your asses.
AgResearch
How long do you want to ignore this user?
G. hirsutum Ag said:

This will hurt the ag sector badly. Basf provides some fantastic chemistry for us. We were hopeful that fertilizer prices would come down but they are still extremely high with the Russia embargo. The American people will be paying for this for years


This will have worldwide consequences across every industry should it come to fruition.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.