We are seeing, on this board and in opinion pieces like the one from Glen Grenwald, a lot of arguments that the West does not come into this conflict with clean hands, and why the US should back down from our support.

A lot of arguments that this is not a good side vs bad side war, that it is much muddier than that.

Some very good arguments that we were poking the bear by getting chummy with Ukraine, and how our behavior escalated this conflict.

None of the above matters. It all pales in comparison to the fact that Russia invaded a sovereign democratic country, and is fighting to occupy it when it shouldn't be there.

The aggression needs to be condemned on the national stage, and done so unapologetically. It's the aggression and world instability that are bad, not that Ukraine is some bastion of capitalist values. The majority of individuals feel this way.

What is starting to become interesting, though, is that you are seeing so many arguments that we shouldn't be supporting Ukraine in this war because elites bad, and this is what the elites wanted.

That is such a terrible take it is almost laughable. It is trying to tie the general populist currents of world opinions against elitism and corruption together with morally reprehensible positions to isolate democracies that are being invaded and bombed to the stone age.

Corruption is bad. Invasion and murder is worse. Arguing against that just undercuts your credibility. It is clear to me that these ideas that elitism is worse than the Russian invasion are being fostered by a lot of people who don't really believe them, and just trying to make normal people look crazy.

I immediately discredit anyone who mentions "the elites." They're simply not worth listening to.

The calls to drop support of Ukraine in this country are coming from Marxists who have infiltrated this country. Unfortunately from now on (or at least until we finally deal with our problem) the enemies of America are not just foreign, they're domestic too.

And our domestic enemies are at least as much of a threat as our foreign enemies.

rocky the dog said:

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What we are seeing is not Ukrainian media by and large. Civilians with phones taking videos of what they are seeing in various locations.

Fog of war

Probably not a popular opinion, but the reality is the msm nonstop Ukraine/Russia is bc they are in fact pushing an agenda

It doesn't mean I don't want to see Putin hanging from gallows, just that I'm very aware the us media is using the conflict as a way to manipulate the population for what is coming next

If we actually care about human rights & govt atrocities, then where is the outrage over chinese & Russian oppression of their own people? This occurs on a much greater scale & has been for decades

What about all the crazy countries in Africa? An entire continent w human rights issues left & right

What about Mexico? They're right next door & their narco-terrorists have been attacking their own population for 30 years & counting….


There is no doubt an agenda manipulation at play here…. It's what the media does best

I am responding, point by point, , to this. And note that I have friends in Kiev right now sheltered in place and who are in danger of running out of food.
--------------------------------------------------------------

We are seeing, on this board and in opinion pieces like the one from Glen Grenwald, a lot of arguments that the West does not come into this conflict with clean hands, and why the US should back down from our support.
YES. I agree with Grenwald. And so do many Ukrainians that I personally know.

A lot of arguments that this is not a good side vs bad side war, that it is much muddier than that.
Some very good arguments that we were poking the bear by getting chummy with Ukraine, and how our behavior escalated this conflict.
None of the above matters. It all pales in comparison to the fact that Russia invaded a sovereign democratic country, and is fighting to occupy it when it shouldn't be there.
I disagree. It matters. It matters more urgently of course that Putin wants to destroy Ukrainian independence - this is TRUE. But the cultural and societal rot from the West brought about by powerful globalist interest DO call into question if the long term health of Ukraine is not what the powers that be truly care for rather than benefitting from Ukraine's resources for their own benefit.

The aggression needs to be condemned on the national stage, and done so unapologetically. It's the aggression and world instability that are bad, not that Ukraine is some bastion of capitalist values. The majority of individuals feel this way.
I agree on this point. Putin is WRONG to have ordered this. I condemn it as well, even if I have a broader view of the geo-political realities that lead to this.

What is starting to become interesting, though, is that you are seeing so many arguments that we shouldn't be supporting Ukraine in this war because elites bad, and this is what the elites wanted.
That is such a terrible take it is almost laughable. It is trying to tie the general populist currents of world opinions against elitism and corruption together with morally reprehensible positions to isolate democracies that are being invaded and bombed to the stone age.
Many people like myself see that the elites are cheerleading for war. If you can't see that, you are fooling yourself. War is the fastest way to derail populist waves that threaten elitist strangleholds on power, now that the "pandemic" fatigue has set in. You call it laughable, but I call it a somber reality. And at the same time, while I oppose escalation in this war, I ALSO understand and recognize that Putin fancies himself the Czar of a revived pre-Soviet Russian Empire, and that he is WRONG for what he has ordered here. These views are NOT in opposition to each other. They are concurrent.

Corruption is bad. Invasion and murder is worse. Arguing against that just undercuts your credibility. It is clear to me that these ideas that elitism is worse than the Russian invasion are being fostered by a lot of people who don't really believe them, and just trying to make normal people look crazy.
I don't sacrifice credibility by saying invasion of a sovereign nation is indeed immoral and wrong AND that elitist anti-liberty interest are also a longer term threat to individual and national sovereignty. That is a B.S. take. However, it is my prayer that Putin withdraws and/or is removed from power by his own people AND that Ukraine is left to be a sovereign and free society that is not under the yoke of influence from Soros, Schwab, the EU, or the WEF.

I stand with Ukrainian people against aggression from Russian forces and Putin now...... and stand with them to maintain their independence from globalist elitist interests in the future.

I would add one more thing --- the blanket sh_tting on all Russian things and Russian people I am seeing everywhere is disgusting. The media is driving this. Russian opera stars and conductors being fired from jobs. Pressure on Russian NHL players to defect and/or condemn Putin while their families are still in Russia. Tennis stars refusing to compete against Russian citizens. Cancelling everything Russian........

Russian culture and Russian people are separate from Russian government. You would think the left wing media driving this would be preaching this the way they did for Muslims after 9/11,

Feel like this is Japanese internment camp type hysteria all over again. We should be ashamed.

TheEternalPessimist said:

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I am responding, point by point, , to this. And note that I have friends in Kiev right now sheltered in place and who are in danger of running out of food.
--------------------------------------------------------------

We are seeing, on this board and in opinion pieces like the one from Glen Grenwald, a lot of arguments that the West does not come into this conflict with clean hands, and why the US should back down from our support.
YES. I agree with Grenwald. And so do many Ukrainians that I personally know.

A lot of arguments that this is not a good side vs bad side war, that it is much muddier than that.
Some very good arguments that we were poking the bear by getting chummy with Ukraine, and how our behavior escalated this conflict.
None of the above matters. It all pales in comparison to the fact that Russia invaded a sovereign democratic country, and is fighting to occupy it when it shouldn't be there.
I disagree. It matters. It matters more urgently of course that Putin wants to destroy Ukrainian independence - this is TRUE. But the cultural and societal rot from the West brought about by powerful globalist interest DO call into question if the long term health of Ukraine is not what the powers that be truly care for rather than benefitting from Ukraine's resources for their own benefit.

The aggression needs to be condemned on the national stage, and done so unapologetically. It's the aggression and world instability that are bad, not that Ukraine is some bastion of capitalist values. The majority of individuals feel this way.
I agree on this point. Putin is WRONG to have ordered this. I condemn it as well, even if I have a broader view of the geo-political realities that lead to this.

What is starting to become interesting, though, is that you are seeing so many arguments that we shouldn't be supporting Ukraine in this war because elites bad, and this is what the elites wanted.
That is such a terrible take it is almost laughable. It is trying to tie the general populist currents of world opinions against elitism and corruption together with morally reprehensible positions to isolate democracies that are being invaded and bombed to the stone age.
Many people like myself see that the elites are cheerleading for war. If you can't see that, you are fooling yourself. War is the fastest way to derail populist waves that threaten elitist strangleholds on power, now that the "pandemic" fatigue has set in. You call it laughable, but I call it a somber reality. And at the same time, while I oppose escalation in this war, I ALSO understand and recognize that Putin fancies himself the Czar of a revived pre-Soviet Russian Empire, and that he is WRONG for what he has ordered here. These views are NOT in opposition to each other. They are concurrent.

Corruption is bad. Invasion and murder is worse. Arguing against that just undercuts your credibility. It is clear to me that these ideas that elitism is worse than the Russian invasion are being fostered by a lot of people who don't really believe them, and just trying to make normal people look crazy.
I don't sacrifice credibility by saying invasion of a sovereign nation is indeed immoral and wrong AND that elitist anti-liberty interest are also a longer term threat to individual and national sovereignty. That is a B.S. take. However, it is my prayer that Putin withdraws and/or is removed from power by his own people AND that Ukraine is left to be a sovereign and free society that is not under the yoke of influence from Soros, Schwab, the EU, or the WEF.

I stand with Ukrainian people against aggression from Russian forces and Putin now...... and stand with them to maintain their independence from globalist elitist interests in the future.

---

While I agree with most of that I just want to point out that the corruption problem in Ukraine was a continuation of what happened under the old Soviet system. Takes awhile and a lot of effort to stop the manner of doing the government's business that had existed nearly 80 years.

And indeed, we are seeing signs that the graft and corruption is still alive and well in Russia today. Weapons that are on the books as manufactured and ready for delivery do not exist. Maybe they were sold on the black market, maybe they were never manufactured at all. But someone submitted the phony paperwork to get paid.

My Name Is Judge said:

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Probably not a popular opinion, but the reality is the msm nonstop Ukraine/Russia is bc they are in fact pushing an agenda

It doesn't mean I don't want to see Putin hanging from gallows, just that I'm very aware the us media is using the conflict as a way to manipulate the population for what is coming next

If we actually care about human rights & govt atrocities, then where is the outrage over chinese & Russian oppression of their own people? This occurs on a much greater scale & has been for decades

What about all the crazy countries in Africa? An entire continent w human rights issues left & right

What about Mexico? They're right next door & their narco-terrorists have been attacking their own population for 30 years & counting….


There is no doubt an agenda manipulation at play here…. It's what the media does best

---

What totalitarian regimes do to their own people is abhorrent. What they do to neighboring democracies is a threat to free people everywhere and must be stopped. The Ukrainian people chose the path of freedom, to deal with their own corrupt government, brokenness, and dysfunction...just as Americans have done for 246 years. On top of that, democracies do not fight each other (Russet, Controlling the Sword). One could almost conclude, dare I say, that a bad democratic government is preferable to ANY totalitarian one. Maybe, just for a moment, consider that the misguided liberals that dominate the msm, despite all their nauseating mantras and preachiness, have got it right on the issue of freedom. Their predecessors got named as targets during McCarthyism, the Muckrakers, Civil Rights, Nixon's "bad list", etc. Even though I have little in common with them, I don't need them to be in my Sunday school class to recognize that this war is a critical moment in the trend of anti-democratic movements in the 21st Century. We are heading back to the middle ages, but this time with 8 billion people with nuclear weapons. I fear we may look back and realize that Ukraine was Helm's Deep of our day. But will we be free enough to say it?

Consider me uniformed. As a child who grew up during the threat of nuclear holocaust I thought those days were behind me but now it is again a reality that I am trying to come to grips with. I would like to understand how it got to this point and if my government could have done anything better to deescalate the crisis. In a democracy we are supposed to have open debate on policy and consequences, no?

How could having NATO forces, including US nuclear weapons and anti-ballistic missiles, advance all the way to the boarder of Russia over the last 30 years be considered by Russia as anything other than a hostile act of aggression? Why is having two nuclear powers with invasion forces gathered on a joint boarder in any way progress towards world peace?

What is the implication to the Monroe Doctrine? In the 60's the US moved nuclear weapons to Turkey and in response Russia tried to move weapons to Cuba. Only through US military intervention was this direct nuclear threat averted. What will happen when the Chinese, who are buying access across the world, want to setup a new military base in Central America or Cuba? Will the US prevent it militarily? If so, will I be held directly accountable for the action like the Russian citizens are today?

One way or another this conflict will end with an armistice. There were weeks of negotiations leading up to this conflict. The entire month of February our government was claiming Russia was going to invade Ukraine. With this foreknowledge, why couldn't a trilateral agreement be made between NATO (a US controlled organization), Ukraine, and Russia to leave Ukraine demilitarized? Why were peaceful solutions like military facility inspections and election monitoring not considered? How can the outcome of this conflict, which will be massive Ukrainian casualties and destruction, be any better that what could have been negotiated without conflict?

In the late 80's the world loved Gorbachev and Reagan for signing historic peace agreements to deescalate the nuclear arms race and decommission nuclear weapons. Why was this not possible in this case?

The incentive here is so blatant it's comical.

Try to paint American Populists as unpatriotic, and against US support of Ukraine.

This is just a continuation of the bashing of "Trumpist" policies. Try to tie good policies about limited government 100% to Trump's toxic personality.

People spouting off that we shouldn't be supporting the Ukraine because "Elites bad" should seriously have their motivations questioned, and need to pass a Turing test.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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I immediately discredit anyone who mentions "the elites." They're simply not worth listening to.

---

Why is that?

There is a whole strand of political theory dedicated to the study of elites and how they influence society.

George Soros qualifies as an elite, correct?

He has plenty of influence on politics around the globe, from deciding your next D.A. to spending $181 million in Ukraine on initiatives "implemented by thousands of activists" in the country.

Or how about the Clinton Foundation, whose #1 source of funding is from Ukrainian oligarchs.

Or Chinese energy moguls meeting with well-connected Americans?

Aren't you curious about the connections and interests of elites and how that shapes geopolitics?

Citations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_theory
https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-prosecutor-campaign-20180523-story.html
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/thank-you-george/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/clinton-charity-tapped-foreign-friends-1426818602
https://nypost.com/2021/11/28/chinese-titan-lavished-hunter-biden-with-3-carat-gem-offer-of-30-million/

What would Ukraine have had to have done to justify this invasion and be the "bad side". Do they have Russians in camps?

aggiehawg said:

---

TheEternalPessimist said:

---

I am responding, point by point, , to this. And note that I have friends in Kiev right now sheltered in place and who are in danger of running out of food.
--------------------------------------------------------------

We are seeing, on this board and in opinion pieces like the one from Glen Grenwald, a lot of arguments that the West does not come into this conflict with clean hands, and why the US should back down from our support.
YES. I agree with Grenwald. And so do many Ukrainians that I personally know.

A lot of arguments that this is not a good side vs bad side war, that it is much muddier than that.
Some very good arguments that we were poking the bear by getting chummy with Ukraine, and how our behavior escalated this conflict.
None of the above matters. It all pales in comparison to the fact that Russia invaded a sovereign democratic country, and is fighting to occupy it when it shouldn't be there.
I disagree. It matters. It matters more urgently of course that Putin wants to destroy Ukrainian independence - this is TRUE. But the cultural and societal rot from the West brought about by powerful globalist interest DO call into question if the long term health of Ukraine is not what the powers that be truly care for rather than benefitting from Ukraine's resources for their own benefit.

The aggression needs to be condemned on the national stage, and done so unapologetically. It's the aggression and world instability that are bad, not that Ukraine is some bastion of capitalist values. The majority of individuals feel this way.
I agree on this point. Putin is WRONG to have ordered this. I condemn it as well, even if I have a broader view of the geo-political realities that lead to this.

What is starting to become interesting, though, is that you are seeing so many arguments that we shouldn't be supporting Ukraine in this war because elites bad, and this is what the elites wanted.
That is such a terrible take it is almost laughable. It is trying to tie the general populist currents of world opinions against elitism and corruption together with morally reprehensible positions to isolate democracies that are being invaded and bombed to the stone age.
Many people like myself see that the elites are cheerleading for war. If you can't see that, you are fooling yourself. War is the fastest way to derail populist waves that threaten elitist strangleholds on power, now that the "pandemic" fatigue has set in. You call it laughable, but I call it a somber reality. And at the same time, while I oppose escalation in this war, I ALSO understand and recognize that Putin fancies himself the Czar of a revived pre-Soviet Russian Empire, and that he is WRONG for what he has ordered here. These views are NOT in opposition to each other. They are concurrent.

Corruption is bad. Invasion and murder is worse. Arguing against that just undercuts your credibility. It is clear to me that these ideas that elitism is worse than the Russian invasion are being fostered by a lot of people who don't really believe them, and just trying to make normal people look crazy.
I don't sacrifice credibility by saying invasion of a sovereign nation is indeed immoral and wrong AND that elitist anti-liberty interest are also a longer term threat to individual and national sovereignty. That is a B.S. take. However, it is my prayer that Putin withdraws and/or is removed from power by his own people AND that Ukraine is left to be a sovereign and free society that is not under the yoke of influence from Soros, Schwab, the EU, or the WEF.

I stand with Ukrainian people against aggression from Russian forces and Putin now...... and stand with them to maintain their independence from globalist elitist interests in the future.

---

While I agree with most of that I just want to point out that the corruption problem in Ukraine was a continuation of what happened under the old Soviet system. Takes awhile and a lot of effort to stop the manner of doing the government's business that had existed nearly 80 years.

And indeed, we are seeing signs that the graft and corruption is still alive and well in Russia today. Weapons that are on the books as manufactured and ready for delivery do not exist. Maybe they were sold on the black market, maybe they were never manufactured at all. But someone submitted the phony paperwork to get paid.

---

Great points to ponder. The corruption issue is indeed a MAJOR issue in both Ukraine and Russia.

BusterAg said:

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The incentive here is so blatant it's comical.

Try to paint American Populists as unpatriotic, and against US support of Ukraine.

This is just a continuation of the bashing of "Trumpist" policies. Try to tie good policies about limited government 100% to Trump's toxic personality.

People spouting off that we shouldn't be supporting the Ukraine because "Elites bad" should seriously have their motivations questioned, and need to pass a Turing test.

---

We should be cheering for and even providing weapons to Ukraine to win.

.......AND the Elites are still bad.

Concurrent realities. Not oppositional realities.

Good grief.....

ABATTBQ11 said:

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I immediately discredit anyone who mentions "the elites." They're simply not worth listening to.

---

...and this is how neo-cons speak....... ignoring the reality that there are truly globalist ELITE people in our society that are cooperating together to establish a global two-tiered system.

Go read the World Economic Forum's own website. Remember the 'You will own nothing. You will be happy' videos? Who funds that crap? Elites and the companies they operate in tandem with bureaucrats and bought off politicians.

It's not a conspiracy nor illegitimate to raise concerns when they tell you what they want.

JJxvi said:

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What would Ukraine have had to have done to justify this invasion and be the "bad side". Do they have Russians in camps?

---

The Ukranian government is clearly bad, corrupt, and run by oligarchs, and Russia is too. The normal people are great but both governments could easily be characterized as bad.

The main backdrop to the invasion is the coup in 2014 and subsequent fighting between different ethnic groups which has left ~20,000 people dead from 2014-2021. Pro-Russian sympathizers have been tortured (although I'm not sure the scale). Would America invade another country if we had a similar threat to Americans? I have no idea.

The UN has a bunch of reports on the situation:
"Between 1 December 2014 and 15 February 2015, at least 1,012 people were killed and at least 3,793 were wounded in the conflict area of eastern Ukraine. Due to the dramatic escalation of hostilities (13 January 15 February), at least 842 deaths were reported, including at least 359 civilians. Of at least 3,410 reported wounded during this period, at least 916 were civilians."
https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/9thOHCHRreportUkraine.pdf

Here's the list of reports:
https://www.ohchr.org/en/countries/enacaregion/pages/uareports.aspx

rocky the dog said:

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Ain't this the ****in' truth. Discerning what is happening there is virtually impossible because 90% of the sources are outright lying, making **** up, or falling for 4chan memes.

Quote:

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The Ukranian government is clearly bad, corrupt, and run by oligarchs, and Russia is too. The normal people are great but both governments could easily be characterized as bad.

---

So what? Even if we accept that, Ukraine isnt invading and putting Russian cities under siege. If the United States invaded Cuba and shelled Havana tomorrow it wouldnt mean dick which of Cuba/Us was bad or good up until then. There needs to be real justification for this kind of aggression and Russia's is clearly just a BS pretext. They're a loose cannon that could clearly invade anybody they feel like they could get over on based on what theyve done in Ukraine.

TheEternalPessimist said:

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BusterAg said:

---

The incentive here is so blatant it's comical.

Try to paint American Populists as unpatriotic, and against US support of Ukraine.

This is just a continuation of the bashing of "Trumpist" policies. Try to tie good policies about limited government 100% to Trump's toxic personality.

People spouting off that we shouldn't be supporting the Ukraine because "Elites bad" should seriously have their motivations questioned, and need to pass a Turing test.

---

We should be cheering for and even providing weapons to Ukraine to win.

.......AND the Elites are still bad.

Concurrent realities. Not oppositional realities.

Good grief.....

---

I agree with you.

But, that is not the brush that the Russian propaganda is painting, and not the brush that the MSM is painting.

And, that is 100% obvious that the smear campaign against conservative populist voters on this topic is real.

In the mean time, focusing on political corruption while civilians are blown to bits makes about as much sense as pointing out US involvement in middle east politics the day after the Twin Towers went down. It's F'n tone deaf, and that's the point.

JJxvi said:

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Quote:

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The Ukranian government is clearly bad, corrupt, and run by oligarchs, and Russia is too. The normal people are great but both governments could easily be characterized as bad.

---

So what? Even if we accept that, Ukraine isnt invading and putting Russian cities under siege. If the United States invaded Cuba and shelled Havana tomorrow it wouldnt mean dick which of Cuba/Us was bad or good up until then. There needs to be real justification for this kind of aggression and Russia's is clearly just a BS pretext. They're a loose cannon that could clearly invade anybody they feel like they could get over on based on what theyve done in Ukraine.

---

Yeah, the reason Russia is invading is because Putin has his own version of the Monroe Doctrine which includes Ukraine. That's it, it's a power grab. They will take it over, establish military bases there and keep it under their sphere of influence.

BusterAg said:

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TheEternalPessimist said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

The incentive here is so blatant it's comical.

Try to paint American Populists as unpatriotic, and against US support of Ukraine.

This is just a continuation of the bashing of "Trumpist" policies. Try to tie good policies about limited government 100% to Trump's toxic personality.

People spouting off that we shouldn't be supporting the Ukraine because "Elites bad" should seriously have their motivations questioned, and need to pass a Turing test.

---

We should be cheering for and even providing weapons to Ukraine to win.

.......AND the Elites are still bad.

Concurrent realities. Not oppositional realities.

Good grief.....

---

I agree with you.

But, that is not the brush that the Russian propaganda is painting, and not the brush that the MSM is painting.

And, that is 100% obvious that the smear campaign against conservative populist voters on this topic is real.

In the mean time, focusing on political corruption while civilians are blown to bits makes about as much sense as pointing out US involvement in middle east politics the day after the Twin Towers went down. It's F'n tone deaf, and that's the point.

---

This is a fair point. I concede on it. I want the carnage to STOP right now. That is the priority.

It's just hard to know what is true through a massive fog of deception and lies.

Do your own research.

You know more than you think. [/we're back]
(Not directed at OP)

Here's something to cheer for: Putin gets taken out and brings the WEF down with him

"It all pales in comparison to the fact that Russia invaded a sovereign democratic country, and is fighting to occupy it when it shouldn't be there."

1) that speck in Russias eye, America might check the mirror.

2) ukraine is a democratic country? Is this before or after the west initiated its coup and installed a puppet govt?

3) there has been no evidence that putin desires to occupy ukraine. He stated he is looking for political change of ukraine. Having a russian friendly govt is not the same as occupying. In fact, in his speech he appealed to the Ukrainian military to avoid the bloodshed and they would keep their jobs/lives as they will run Ukraine in the future.

Quote:

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2) ukraine is a democratic country? Is this before or after the west initiated its coup and installed a puppet govt?

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Zelensky got nearly 70% of the vote over the US preferred puppet, Poroshenko. Zelensky was most definitely not the preferred candidate at the American embassy wienies in Kyiv.

Quote:

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At this time, Nuland made a call with another American, Jeffrey Pyatt, to discuss the events in Ukraine. She mentioned Jake Sullivan in the call as well as Joe Biden. In their phone conversation, Nuland and Pyatt discussed who should join a unity government. Nuland notified Pyatt that after the review of the three opposition candidates for the post of Prime Minister of Ukraine, the US State Department had selected Arseniy Yatsenyuk.

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TexAgs91 said:

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The calls to drop support of Ukraine in this country are coming from Marxists who have infiltrated this country. Unfortunately from now on (or at least until we finally deal with our problem) the enemies of America are not just foreign, they're domestic too.

And our domestic enemies are at least as much of a threat as our foreign enemies.

---

On this board they're from people who vote Republican.

Exactly, this not humor, it is not satire, it doesn't address hypocrisy. It is just an attack on conservatives in illustrated form.

Go back to Premium with that BS.

The West didn't initiate a coup. Russia pushed too hard. Ukraine was moving towards Europe on its own in 2013-2014 and Russia didn't like it. They put pressure on Yanukovych to back out of widely supported as parliament approved trade agreements with the EU and move towards more agreements with Russia. Russia wanted a satellite Ukraine, but Ukrainians didn't want Russian overlords. Ukrainians protested and rioted. Yanukovych tried to use force to quell the protests, and that made it worse. The Russians eventually insisted that Yanukovych crush the protests, leading to a lot of civilians dying and enough anger for people to overthrow the Ukrainian government.

Yes, we wanted regime change, but we weren't the ones trying to operate Ukraine as a puppet state.

The Debt said:

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"It all pales in comparison to the fact that Russia invaded a sovereign democratic country, and is fighting to occupy it when it shouldn't be there."

1) that speck in Russias eye, America might check the mirror.

2) ukraine is a democratic country? Is this before or after the west initiated its coup and installed a puppet govt?

3) there has been no evidence that putin desires to occupy ukraine. He stated he is looking for political change of ukraine. Having a russian friendly govt is not the same as occupying. In fact, in his speech he appealed to the Ukrainian military to avoid the bloodshed and they would keep their jobs/lives as they will run Ukraine in the future.

---

Russian army avoiding bloodshed? Nope. Lip service. Not occupying? Any favorable Russian government would obviously be rejected by Ukraine people.

The point on US invading other countries is right though. We never should have been in Afghanastan or Iraq once we kicked them out of Kuwait. 9/11 shouldn't be ignored, but occupying those countries was not smart.

rocky the dog said:

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EOT