Didn't want to hijack another thread, but seriously, what makes one Catholic Church better than another?

I thought someone might ask that...basically nothing we're all there for the Eucharist so it shouldn't matter but I would rather go to the Catholic Church that has a lot to offer young families than the one down the street from the retirement home

One that follows the Magisterium and more specifically the GIRM, General Instructions of the Roman Missal.

Any deviation form the GIRM and the Church is in error -which is all to common these days:>(




"And the Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against It...."

texag_89

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Any deviation form the GIRM and the Church is in error -which is all to common these days:>(

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But what if the GIRM itself were to deviate from the Bible? Would the local Church have the ability to call it out?

It doesn't deviate from the Bible.

One individual's view of issue x may deviate from their personal view of the Bible, but you could find another non-Catholic who would disagree.

One key distinction of Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics do not personally interpert the Bible when it comes to fundamental matters of faith and morals - otherwise, they need to leave asap.

Returning to the question, what would make one parish "better" than another would be the quality of the priests.

This certainly varies - Catholic Ags have been very blessed in having great campus parish priests.

Red,

So you are saying, in 2000 years of Church history, the ruling bodies have never deviated from 100% pure Biblical teaching. Is this correct?

The Canon emerged from the Church, which existed before it.

If you believe a pronouncement is directly contrary to the Bible, clearly spell it out for us so it can be discussed.

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Catholic Ags have been very blessed in having great campus parish priests.

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St. Mary's has been truely blessed in this manner.

One that does not "do their own thing". One that has lots of activities for young people. One that has a St. Vincent De Paul organization to help the poor. One that has beautiful architecture. One that has meaningful, biblical sermons. One where the priest takes his vocation seriously. One that has Eucharistic Adoration on a regular basis.

And, may I add the following,...(Please ready for a Rant):

- One where the Priest - during the sermon - makes me squirm ....I am a Sinner, Call me a Sinner and explain that through Reverence for God.....Through a Fear of God, the Blessed Sacrament, the Church, and by His Grace I have a shot at Salvation!!! I do not need someone whom inspires through his tone or delivery, but rather through his content and his explanations of the Scriptures, the Magisterium and the Moral Teachings of the Christ Jesus and His Church.

I am SO sick of these wishy-washy God is Love Sermons....Yes, God is Love....He is also wants us to revere and worship him...drop to your knees and show the utmost reverence for His Son in the Holy Eucharist by not only your actions (or lack there of is some instances) but also through your dress, gestures, and movement…..We so lack that today. He is Love and Mercy and Forgiveness….But he is a Jealous God who made us in his likeness to know he is “My Lord, My God”, as Thomas finally admitted in the Scriptures.

2) Stop Featuring Choirs.....Either put them behind the congregation in a Choir loft, or get them out completely....As much as Vatican II has been twisted and misapplied, it states and the Church still believes and should be teaching, that Gregorian Chant is the Music of The Church....Not guitars or drums or flutes or anything like that......An organ and Chant...That is it!

3) Build Em like you use to.....Go to the old Churches in San Antonio, or in Fredericksburg for example......When I step in I should be entering Heaven on Earth, not a meet-and-greet hall.....REVERENCE

4. Be Not Afraid.....
(a) Bring Back the Latin Mass, at least as a 1 Mass per week per parish, or Diocese....
Father Rutler, of EWTN's Christ in the City fame, tells of how the young people and families FLOCK to his Latin Pre-62 Mass(s)....He tells of how a Traditional and Jesus-Centered Mass does not empty the Coffers and Pews, but rather increases them....…(It is my contention that one of the US Bishops’ fears are empting pews and coffers)

(b) Do not worry about numbers, $, or your backside Priest and Bishops.... Somewhat like when Tax rates are Increased in this country and Tax Revenues GO DOWN as an example of something going against a so-called common wisdom; IE: By trying to water down the Liturgy and the Mass into a more mainstream/liberal/protestant-like gathering, you actually drive parishioners/$/seats in the pews AWAY from The Church.....But, like Reagan always knew (and went against the common thought of the day) if you lower tax rates, MORE Tax Revenue comes in; Just like if you stick to the Traditional and Reverent Liturgy and Mass you will INCREASE parishioners/$s/seats in the pews

(c) US Bishops....Take back The Church and Her Traditional, Christ-Established Liturgy and Mass....Be not afraid

These are some things that describe a “Good Catholic Church”…..IE: Being Catholic, just as the Apostles established upon Christ’s Commands to do so with all His Authority to do so.

There, rant over and please pray for me and my frustrations with a Church in need of finding its Christ-Roots within its Mass again, and please pray for His Church....





"And the Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against It...."

texag_89

RS,

That is the same slippery slope that was used to justify things like communism and radical Islam....From Hitler to Pol Pot....

and, it will be the same "Modernization" or "Loosening of the Control" or the "Liberalization" of the Church that could lead to where someone - something - decides which group of folks have worth, and which do not ......the unborn, the infirmed, the elderly, etc.

Watch that slippery slope and incrementalism...And He promised that the gate of Hell would not prevail, but remember the Smoke of Satan can and maybe has entered the Church; and for sure has corrupted the world.

Pray for me and pray for The Church.



"And the Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against It...."

texag_89

Right on 89---The modern churches look like government buildings, and are just as inspiring!!

I believe it was called "The Reformation".

texasag-

You need to remember that every "traditional" style of building was once a new style.

Redstone, here's what's contrary to the Bible.

1. Forbidding priests to marry.

2. Elevation of Mary to the position of Queen of Heaven.

3. Making the priest the person to whom one is to confess, rather than confessing our sins one to the other.

Unfortunately, for fear of seeming to "seem Catholic" Protestant churches tend to view confession in any way, shape or form through eyes clouded with fear.

Priests can marry. There are married Catholic priests. The Latin Rite does not allow priests to be married, except in special circumstances (a converted Anglican preacher for instance who is approved to continue as a priest...usually in the Aglican Use).

Does the Bible say not to elevate Mary, specifically, to that honoriffic? She is after all mother of the King, hence she would be the Queen mother.

Is the priest not one of us? I would say he is, and as per the specific charism of Holy Orders he is given the ability to bind and loose sins in the person of Christ. The priest stands in for Christ, but it is Christ that does the forgiving. Much better than a moment of silent confession where one can put together their shopping list in the prescense of someone who does not have a valid ordination, no matter how much they wish to play pastor.

From what I see, many Protestant church's take confession very lightly, if they take it at all.

Gee, Paul must not have been biblical, as he didn't marry either. Same for Jesus. Guess they wouldn't have made good protestants....

Mary is the Queen Mother by virtue of being the mother of the King of Kings, and Revelation 12.

John 20:21-23 - Jesus authorizes his priests to forgive sins through the power of His Holy Spirit. "As the Father sent me, so I send you".

A quick read of Hebrews reminds me we no longer need that priest class; especially those who abuse their position and abuse others.

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Agree. We have only one high priest, and he is our brother, redeemer, and King.

texasag73, was Paul not at one time a member of the Sanhedrin? I didn't think they accepted bachelors in that group?

Paul was always single, to my knowledge.

A quick reading of Peter shows us that priests will always offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God like the Eucharist in a spiritual house like the Catholic Church...



1 Peter, chapter 2:5: and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Paul was not married, but there is no basis to extend his choice to everyone in a position of spiritual authority. Maybe Catholics should consider that if marriage and heterosexual relations were good enough for Mary the Mother of Jesus, they may be acceptable for priests and nuns.

[This message has been edited by JWH (edited 9/27/2006 4:38p).]

Again as I said in my earlier posts, there are married priests.

Also, as you may know the orthodox view of Mary is that she was a virgin her whole life. So if it was good enough for her and her son, it may be good enough for those in religious life.



[This message has been edited by OceanStateAg (edited 9/27/2006 4:46p).]

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The Latin Rite does not allow priests to be married, except in special circumstances (a converted Anglican preacher for instance who is approved to continue as a priest...usually in the Aglican Use).

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When people speak of Catholics, they typically mean Latin Rite Catholics, who, as you say, do not allow priests to marry. If you would like to start a discussion about other Rites, fine - but then we'll be off-topic.

Also, the Bible refers to Joseph as Mary's husband, just as it refers to the brothers of Jesus. Neither of these are possible without consummation.


[This message has been edited by JWH (edited 9/27/2006 4:50p).]

Well people who don't know any better are just ignorant. The Catholic Church is more than just the Latin Rite. When one speaks of the Catholic Church, one mean's the whole Church, not just one rite. If you want to take issue with the Latin Rite then fine, but don't go pulling the whole Catholic Church into it, it just looks ingnorant to do so, though I am sure you did not mean to be. It's one of my pet peeves to see the other Rites ignored when they make up such an important part of the Church.

Joseph is Mary's husband, however the word for brother's is better translated as brethren of family. There really is no term for cousins and other similar family relations in the ancient languages. However, given the early church taught that Mary was and remained a virgin, I'll side with history and orthodoxy. This is a point of contention though and I know we'll just have to disagree on it.

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If you want to take issue with the Latin Rite then fine, but don't go pulling the whole Catholic Church into it, it just looks ingnorant to do so, though I am sure you did not mean to be. It's one of my pet peeves to see the other Rites ignored when they make up such an important part of the Church.

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The discussion was originally specific to pronouncements of the GIRM that ro828 believed to be extra-biblical. As such, I believed we were safely within the confines of the Latin Rite. I did, however, make the mistake of referring to "Catholics" which admittedly include all Rites. I don't think it was necessarily ignorant, however, given the context of the discussion.

My family is actually largely Eastern rite Catholic; because they are in full communion with the Pope and yet are allowed to retain their customs (marriage being one), I wonder what the value of celibacy is. Are Roman Catholic priests considered more holy than their Eastern counterparts?

Not at all, they are all priests. Canon law allows for married priests, even in the Latin Rite. It's just not the norm, nor has it been for a long time. There are a lot of views which have been hashed out here many times. Celibacy is Christ like, and if when one enters the priesthood of the Latin Rite they choose the celibate life. It's not something that's forced or sprung upon them, they willingly know. If that's the life they are called to, so be it.

I can appreciate that. I believe celibacy is a high calling, as demonstrated amply by Paul in the Scriptures. From a practical standpoint, many of those who choose the priesthood do not necessarily choose celibacy - they choose to have carnal knowledge outside the fullness of marriage. Additionally, it is clear that some choose the priesthood as an attempt to escape their ungodly desires. I suppose that is unavoidable to a certain extent.

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What makes a good Catholic Chuch?

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Give him some Syrup of Ipecac, that'll be make him chuch.

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Does the Bible say not to elevate Mary, specifically, to that honoriffic? She is after all mother of the King, hence she would be the Queen mother.

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Does the Bible say not to honor the lamb? Afterall, Jesus was called the "Lamb of God."
We should refer to sheep as God's chosen mammals, afterall, it's not forbidden in scripture.

The list of things that are not forbidden in scripture is INFINITE. That has got to one of the most......well......I will euphemize and say "weakest" argements I have heard form a Catholic so far.

the Bible doesn't say Trinity anywhere either, doesn't make it any less true.

Pose a weak comment expect a weak reply.

If you can honor your own mother, then you certainly can honor the mother of the King of Kings.