The Real Truth About John Wesleys Views on the Great Apostasy!

1,243 Views | 31 Replies | Last: 19 yr ago by ibmagg
ibmagg
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Sadly, controversy and wickedness had reached heights during the reign of Constantine in the early fourth century, and the Church continued its downward spiral thereafter throughout the Middle Ages.

The Christian Reformer John Wesley, writing in the 18th century, explained:

"Soon after the pouring out of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost, in the infancy of the Christian Church, there was indeed a glorius change. Great grace was upon them all, Ministers as well as people. The multitude of them that believed were of ONE heart and of ONE soul. But how short a time did this continue? How soon did the fine gold become dim! LONG BEFORE even the apostolic age had expired, St. Paul himself had grounds to COMPLAIN, that some of his fellow laborers had FORSAKEN him, 'having loved the present world.' And not long after St. John reproved divers of the angels, that is, the ministers of the Churches in Asia, because even in that early period, their 'works were not found perfect before God'.

Thus did 'the mystery of iniquity' begin to "work", in the MINISTERS as well as the PEOPLE, even BEFORE the end of the apostolic age. But how much MORE powerfully did it work, as soon as the master-bulders, the Apostles, were TAKEN out of the way! BOTH Ministers and the people were then farther and farther REMOVED from the hope of the Gospel. In so much that when St. Cyprian, about a hundred and fifty years after the death of St. John, describes the spirit and behaviour BOTH of laity and Clergy that were round about him, one would be ready to suppose he was giving us a description of the PRESENT CLERGY and LAITY of Europe. But the CORRUPTION which had been CREEPING in drop by drop, during the second and third century, in the beginning of the fourth, when Constantine called himself a Christian, POURED IN upon the Church with a FULL TIDE. And whoever reads the history of the Church, from the time of Constantine to the Reformation, will EASILY observe that all of the abominations of the heathen world...OVERFLOWED EVERY PART OF IT. And in every nation and city the CLERGY were not a WHIT more INNOCENT than the laity."

Finally, confirming fulfillment of the prophecy received by John the Revelator, Wesley Summarized:
"Such is the authentic account of 'the mystery of iniquity' working even in the apostolic churches!--an account given, not by the Jews or Heathens, but by the Apostles THEMSELVES. To this we may add the account which is given by the head and Founder of the Church; Him who is 'the faithful and true witness.' We may easily infer what was the state of the Church in general, from the state of the seven Churches in Asi. One of these indeed, the Church of Philadelphia, had 'kept His word, and denied not His name'; (Rev. 3:8) the Church of Symrna was likewise in a flourishing state: But all the rest were CORRUPTED, more or less; insomuch that many of them were not a jot better than the PRESENT race of Christians; and our Lord then threatenend, what he has long SINCE PERFORMED, to REMOVE the candlestick from them!"

As witnessed by the Apostle John, the wicked world continued, BUT God's Church was taken from the earth for a season--as it had been from time to time during patriarchal dispensations under similar conditions of apostasy. The candlestick, as attested to by John Wesley, had LONG since been removed.

And that being said, you can't take a live branch from a dead tree!


IBMAGG

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 7/26/2006 8:19p).]

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 7/26/2006 8:20p).]
jja79
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Someone please reply here so he can insult you.
ibmagg
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Sorry I got interrupted before I finished.

jj -you are so sensitive!
jja79
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Just wanted the posters to know what to expect.
ibmagg
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I have been here for several months so I don't think that you need to worry on their account. I am sure though that you don't know how to respond to John Wesley's comments.
jja79
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I put no weight in Mr. Wesley's remarks so no response needed.
BQ88
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Please tell me you aren't using John Wesley to advocate Mormonism.
ibmagg
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BQ88 -Only in the same way that I used Roger Williams. They were both honest and insightful enough to recoginize and admit that the Church which Christ established was gone. kaput! Total apostasy. Only a "restoration" could bring it back. A new tree just like the original one had to be planted. Fulfilment of Rev. 14:6-7.
ibmagg
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jj -what religious faith are you?
jja79
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One as all knowing as you should easily figure it out.
ibmagg
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jj -Since you seem to have no respect for the Reformers I would guess Catholic.
jja79
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I guess I'll have to convert because you certainly couldn't be wrong.
ibmagg
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jj -are you embarrased over your religious affiliation. Why do you want to play games?
Notafraid
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The thing I find funny is ibmagg saying "The REAL truth" about something... That is really the issue here.. Most people find you to have a strange view of the truth about most things... It's the mormon spirit in you... The absence of truth is the common vibe from that group.
ibmagg
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Notafraid -I am totally devoted to the "truth"!
Notafraid
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And yet you are blind to the truth...
ibmagg
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Notafraid -Unfortunately, you have been blinded by the cunning and craftiness of men. They were too smart for you. Not my fault.
jkag89
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quote:
Unfortunately, you have been blinded by the cunning and craftiness of men. They were too smart for you. Not my fault.

Funny the rest of us know the opposite to be true.
Notafraid
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quote:

Notafraid -Unfortunately, you have been blinded by the cunning and craftiness of men. They were too smart for you. Not my fault.


So it’s all about being smarter that others huh? A tell tale sign of a man made religion is that everything is about mans power, and mans will, and mans abilities. Because when man invents something, he makes it after his own image. He makes a god he can appease, and He makes a path where he can depend on himself, and save himself by his own hand, his own doings… He would never make the God of the bible, who shows us our helplessness, and neediness. If one is not in God’s camp, then he has failed to pull himself up by his spiritual bootstraps and get himself there.
ibmagg
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Notafraid -A doctrine of free and easy salvation based on a "lip" confession of acceptance of a God that is at odds with scriptures is false and I know it. You should. You still can't take a live branch from a dead tree!
Notafraid
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quote:
Notafraid -A doctrine of free and easy salvation based on a "lip" confession of acceptance of a God that is at odds with scriptures is false and I know it. You should. You still can't take a live branch from a dead tree!


Who ever said that since salvation is a free gift, that it is easy? Because some people are antinomians, you speak as if all people who believe what Paul teaches (Rom 5:15;6:23;11:29) are antinomians. No person with an honest, and balanced understanding of things would do that.
ibmagg
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Well, Notafraid, what do you believe? What does your church teach? Since I have forgotten which church you belong to, which church is it?
Notafraid
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That is a red herring. Your denial of what the scriptures teach is your true problem.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
jkag89
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quote:
You still can't take a live branch from a dead tree!

You have yet to prove, at least to my mind, that the tree was dead!!!!!! Diseased perphaps, dead no.
ibmagg
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JkAg89 -Read the Reformers, from Luther, Wesley, Williams and others who originally tried to save the "diseased tree" but it was too far gone. Most of them had no desire to start a new church. But to get away from the stink of corruption they made their best attempts. Read also all of the Apostolic Fathers, for they saw the Church disintergrate before their eyes.
jkag89
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ibmagg-
You are assuming I have not read anything by the Reformers or the Apostolic Fathers. From what I've read I do not even see a terminally ill tree much less a dead one.
ibmagg
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Jkag89 -I have to run now but I will give you later all the evidence you need. Luther, as an example, was not looking forward to being nailed upside down for his "heritical" views but he was applalled as to how evil and corrupt the priesthood leadership had become. His original intention was only to "reform" the church. This is consistent with all of the early observers of the fate of the primitive Church. While waiting my next post, I would urge you to reread slowly and thoughtfully what John Wesley said.
(removed:110205)
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I know better than to respond, but...

You said: The candlestick, as attested to by John Wesley, had LONG since been removed." The passage from Wesley you cite says it was removed from certain churches, not all.
ibmagg
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Sid -There were two at the time. The succumbed also. Very sad but nothing the Apostles had not forseen. As Wesley observed, it started drip by drip and then poured in on the Church in full tide not long after the Apostles were taken from the earth.
Guadaloop474
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The "tree" wasn't diseased. The tree is of Christ. The leaders and followers were sinful, just like you and I and your preacher and my priest are today. The fact that Judas committed a huge sin didn't mean that the doctrine of the original church was bad, it only meant that Judas was bad. And that is always true throughout the ages, and will be true until the end of time.
ibmagg
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73 -What you fail to grasp is that Christ is NOT the tree; he is the foundation, the source of norishment and life of the "tree". He established a Church, a defined organization with different offices and duties to which he gave Priesthood Power and Authority. This Authority was abused and corrupted and thus removed from the earth. Why? I want you to pay careful attention to the principles on which the Priesthood of God can be handled, as revealed in these verses of scripture and think about the state of affairs that has been described in the early Church:

"Behold, many are called but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? BECAUSE their hearts are set so much on the THINGS of This world, and ASPIRE to the honors of men, that they do not learn this ONE lesson--That the RIGHTS OF THE PRIESTHOOD are INSEPARABLY connected with the POWERS of heaven, and the powers of heaven CANNOT BE CONTROLLED NOR HANDLED only upon the PRINCIPLES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

That they may be conferred upon us, it is TRUE; But when we undertake to COVER our sins,, or to GRATIFY our pride, our VAIN ambition, or to exercise CONTROL or DOMINION or COMPULSION upon the souls of men, in ANY degree of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the SPIRIT of the Lord is GRIEVED; and WHEN IT IS WITHDRAWN, AMEN to the priesthood of the authority of that man.

Behold, ere he is aware, he is left to kick against the p****s, To PERSECUTE the Saints,and to FIGHT against God. We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will IMMEDIATELY begin to EXERCISE unrighteous dominion. Hence many are called, but few are chosen!

No POWER or INFLUENCE CAN or OUGHT to be MAINTAINED by virtue of the PRIESTHOOD, ONLY by PERSUASION, by LONG-SUFFERING, by GENTLENESS and MEEKNESS, and by LOVE UNFEIGNED.

By KINDNESS, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul WITHOUT hypocrisy and WITHOUT guile--Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an INCREASE of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy. That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death." (D&C 121:34-44)

When the priesthood that the Lord had bestowed no longer met this criteria, the Lord withdrew it from the earth. His church had become corrupt from top to bottom. As He had it past dispensations after the Israelites had fell into apostasy, he withdrew it till he was ready to start again for the "last" time prior to His Second Coming.
Guadaloop474
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quote:
When the priesthood that the Lord had bestowed no longer met this criteria, the Lord withdrew it from the earth


Must have missed this in World History Class. Link please....
ibmagg
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73 -I doubt they even knew what the "priesthood authority" was in World History, but I will post later what many of the apostolic Fathers had to say. I know you may not care for them but you ought to read closely what Wesley and Roger Williams wrote, that I posted. These statements were not written to advance their cause that much.

John Wesley observed that "the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries. We SELDOM HEAR of them after that FATAL period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian". Obviously something bad had happened. "..ina vain imigination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honor upon Christians in general, BUT in PARTICULAR upon the CHRISTIAN CLERGY. From this time they almost totally ceased!...The real cause was that the love of many had waxed cold. The Christians had NO MORE the Spirit of Christ than the OTHER HEATHENS. This was the REAL cause;...The Christians were TURNED HEATHEN again and had ONLY a DEAD FORM LEFT!"

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 7/29/2006 12:06p).]
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