Confidientiallity controversy at Watermark church in Dallas - Your thoughts

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Baylor81
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Pair fights church on sharing confessions
Exclusive: Watermark says telling others of sins is in bylaws



09:53 PM CDT on Thursday, May 25, 2006
By MICHAEL GRABELL and JEFFREY WEISS / The Dallas Morning News



Does a church have the right to publicly reveal a person's private sins? A Dallas court is being asked to decide whether Watermark Community Church can do exactly that to a man and a woman identified in court records as "John Doe" and "Jane Roe."

Their attorney says that the pair thought they had revealed their sins to Watermark's pastor confidentially and that their behavior should not be made public.

Church officials say they are only following a process of church discipline outlined in the Gospel of Matthew and written into the church's bylaws.

"Basically, we're being sued because we're seeking to love 'John Doe' in accordance with the principles outlined by God's word," said the pastor, the Rev. Todd Wagner.

Neither church officials nor the pair's attorney would specify the behavior involved.

Leaders of the northeast Dallas church said they recently became aware that "John Doe," who joined the church more than a year ago, was "having some struggles in his walk with Christ," Mr. Wagner said.

Church elders began the process of "care and correction" described in Matthew: Confront the person one to one, then with several others, then "tell it to the church." At every step, the person is asked to stop the offending behavior.

In this case, the man refused the private interventions and said he was quitting the church, church officials said. But Watermark's bylaws say a member "may not resign from membership in an attempt to avoid such care and correction."

Watermark's next step would have been to send more than a dozen letters to people who know "John Doe" – half to Watermark members and half to members of other churches who know and have worked with him.

That's when the lawsuit was filed.

"The basis of the lawsuit was the church wanted to go outside of the church and the community at large, including potentially even their employers," said Jeff Tillotson, attorney for the man and woman.

They obtained a temporary restraining order April 28, preventing the church from releasing information about them.

But the order was dismissed May 5 by Associate Judge Sheryl McFarlin after Watermark's lawyers argued that it violated the church's right to freely exercise its religion.

The case is winding its way through appeals.

Mr. Tillotson said the case holds major implications for church members in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

"The typical notion of a Dallasite is that if you don't like a church, you can just leave, and that's that is apparently not shared by some of these churches," he said. "And then when you say I want to get off this merry-go-round, their response is you can't quit to avoid discipline."

E-mail jweiss@dallasnews.com and mgrabell@dallasnews.com

BY THE BOOK

Watermark Community church says it relies on this New Testament passage to justify its policy of disciplining members:

"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Matthew 18:15-17

_______________________________________

Response from Watermark:

As a result of the interest and confusion generated by recent media accounts of a lawsuit filed by a Watermark member against the church, it is our desire to clearly summarize pertinent facts. Our purpose in sharing these facts is to allow those wanting to understand our actions the opportunity to deal with truths and not be forced to speculate.


“Mr. Doe and Mrs. Doe” are married and are members of Watermark.

“Mrs. Doe” came forward asking for help related to challenges in her marital relationship.

“Mr. Doe or Ms. Roe” did not reveal information or participate in a “private confessional” with any Watermark staff that resulted in this process.

As part of the process, “Mr. Doe and Mrs. Doe” included other people, both members at Watermark and others outside Watermark, in the discussions regarding the marital struggle. There was never a one on one confessional between Mr. Doe and Todd Wagner, or Mr. Doe and any other staff or church member that initiated the Matthew 18 process, as has been reported in the news. As “Mrs. Doe” sought help to repair the marriage, she approached the church and as a result the church continued to reach out to “Mr. Doe” and later “Ms. Roe” in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17.

The final step in the Matthew 18 process was to close the communications with those that were personally involved with “Mr. and Mrs. Doe and Ms. Roe” and to clarify the church’s need to separate from “Mr. Doe’s” continued behavior. The lawsuit was filed in April by “Mr. Doe” and “Ms. Roe” to prevent this letter from being sent to those people already involved with “Mr. Doe and Ms. Roe.” There was never a planned letter to the entire congregation -- indeed, close to 100% of the membership knew nothing of “Mr. and Mrs. Doe and Ms. Roe” until the lawsuit was filed.

A temporary restraining order was entered without Watermark being present to challenge any representations made at the hearing. After a hearing with all present, the Court dismissed the case. The dismissal was upheld by a district judge days later. With the case now twice dismissed, “Mr. Doe and Ms. Roe” filed an appeal with the Dallas Court of Appeals, which is currently pending.

As in any similar case, we encourage all followers of Christ in relationship with such individuals, to continue in prayer for them, while calling them to a true knowledge of the Lord, repentance in their sin and reconciliation to: God, their spouse, and other damaged relationships – including the church (Watermark and universal body of Christ). We eagerly await the day that “Mr. Doe” chooses to reconcile. We long to “forgive and comfort him, [that he may not] be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow” and we may “reaffirm our love for him” (2 Corinthians 2:7-8). We ask that you continue to love “Mr. Doe” along with us in accordance with scripture, urging him to seek restoration in all his relationships.


Colossians 4:2-6,
The Elders of Watermark Community Church


Cru
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absolutlely disgusting.


that pisses me off.
ibmagg
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I am sure each Church has the right to handle its internal discipline however they desire. In the LDS Church the would have been held a "court" the chances arethey would have been excommunicated. This Court is a court of love for every effort is made to help the individuals repent and qualify for baptism. Their names are not talked about nor are the reasons for their excommunication EVER disclosed. They are permitted and encouraged to come to Church. They can not partake of the sacrament nor can they offer any prayers. They can hold no Church callings. The repentance process is long, hard and painful. It will truly require a broken heart and a contrite spirit! The man of course no longer holds any priesthood office. If he held a leadership position such as a Bishop or Stake President, although he might eventually be rebaptised and have the priesthood conferred on him again, he can NEVER hold a leadership position. He will have violated too sacred a trust.

As every blessing of the gospel is thereby lost, If the individual does not repent and regain his church status (member) again, he cannot be saved in the Celestial kingdom.

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 6/13/2006 6:07p).]
Orphan
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Not enough information. For instance, has Mr.s Doe counseled Mr.Doe on his transgressions (an assumption)? If not, then step two
quote:
“Mrs. Doe” came forward asking for help related to challenges in her marital relationship.
Holds no water and is not valid....in accordance with the cited Scripture.

In modern terms, did she sit by his side to discuss the problem or did she get in his face by taking other actions?

Not enough info to render an opinion.

david
Guadaloop474
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Crazy stuff. In the Catholic Church, the seal of the Confessional is absolute. The priest is forbidden to ever reveal what he has heard from the penitent to anyone, ever, even if it means going to jail. His only recourse is to not offer absolution through the Holy Spirit if he feels that the sinner is unrepentant. If it were otherwise, people would stop going to confession, and John 20:21-23 would therefore be rendered null and void.
The Lone Stranger
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If you go their website, you will find that the confessional aspect is not an issue. In fact, the only reason why it is public is because of the lawsuit filed. It would have remained an in house church issue.

T73, you are equivicating. What you refer to as a confession and what happened here is two different things.

They did not come for absolution but counseling.
Guadaloop474
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TLS - In the Catholic Church, we get free counseling along with our absolution. I didn't mean to equivocate, it's just the closest thing we have to what happened in Big D...
Mrs. Lovelight
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texasag,

What happens when the priest withholds absolution? Is communion withheld from the unrepentant? Are they excommunicated? What exactly happens?

Guadaloop474
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It's hard to tell, unless the priest knows who the penitent is. If the penitent makes known to the priest who he is, then communion can be witheld until such time as the priest feels that he is truly sorry for all of his sins and will make a sincere effort to sin no more. St. Padre Pio used to tell certain individuals to go back and leave their adulterous relationship first before he would grant them absolution.

There is a movement afoot by conservative Catholics to withold Holy Communion from public sinners, especially those who advance the cause of abortion with their words and with their votes in Congress. Sadly, most Bishops lead with their politics rather than with their morality, so Kerry and Kennedy still receive Communion in Church, although the Bishop of St. Louis said that they could not in his Diocese.
ibmagg
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TexasAg73 -I knwo this bothers you greatly. i promise you it would me also. But how can the "special representatives" of Christ possible put their politics ahead of Christ's law?? Who do they "really' serve?
Guadaloop474
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Good question ibm - Cardinal McCarrick of Washington DC supposedly gives Holy Communion to both Kennedy and Kerry, because he doesn't want "politics" to intrude into the church sanctuary. Truth be known, that is exactly why he won't refuse to give it to them.

The Bible is pretty clear in 1rst Corinthians that if you eat the Body and drink the Blood of Christ without first examining yourself, you eat and drink It to your own condemnation. To me, that translates into support for the taking of innocent human life with your words and votes makes you unworthy, and therefore you condemn yourself by partaking of the Lord's Supper. But then some Cardinals don't see abortion as the abomination that it truly is. To me, giving Holy Communion to pro-abortion politicians is the real scandal in the Church.
Bob75
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"Crazy stuff. In the Catholic Church, the seal of the Confessional is absolute. The priest is forbidden to ever reveal what he has heard from the penitent to anyone, ever, even if it means going to jail. His only recourse is to not offer absolution through the Holy Spirit if he feels that the sinner is unrepentant. If it were otherwise, people would stop going to confession, and John 20:21-23 would therefore be rendered null and void."

Except in the Taxil Hoax or any other event/reason where the Roman Catholic Church needs a political or economic advantage or a way to smear its opponents. Then that information will be forwarded immediately to the local Bishop and to the Vatican if it is "juicy" enogh.
Guadaloop474
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Bob - Please enlighten me. Any priest that breaks the seal of the confessional is in big trouble.

Please provide me a link.

Thanks
Bob75
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What is the matter, don't want to accept the truth about the Catholic Church? Don't want to accept the fact that the Catholic Church has used murder, extortion and other means to try to control goverments and countries? Ever wonder why the Soviets put a contract out on a Pope?

As you are so under informed, ill educated and such a poor researcher, I will give you the link, and don't bother to apologize for the Catholic Church, it has been done and covered up, but the Hoax is used repeatedly, as you have done so here many times. Do bother to read it and all the related articles, but I am sure you won't.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/taxil_confessed.html
Guadaloop474
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The Masons? Wow, no wonder you hate the Catholic Church so much. The Catholic Church is one of the few religions in the world to see you guys for what you really are - a pseudo secret religion that has tried mightily to destroy the Church and its truth throughout the years...

The Soviet Union put out a contract on the Pope because he was a threat to their communist power. And guess who won out ? Not the Soviets...
Guadaloop474
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Leo Taxil sounds a lot like Dan Brown. He lied about the Catholic Church, and then he lied about the Masons...Great link to prove your side is THE truth..
http://www.netjaunt.com/thinkinghurts/Taxil.txt
In retrospect, Taxil proved to be an embarrassment to all parties
concerned. His fatuous duplicity harmed the Freemasons, but also the
anti-Masonic elements that so eagerly swallowed his vivid fictions. Much
like a screaming headline that chronicles a lurid murder that later proves
to be incorrect, Taxil's unfounded accusations generated considerable
anti-Masonic sentiments. The fact that he later recanted and admitted his
hoax never erased the stain of the original fabrications. Following the
old bromide concerning "where there is smoke there must be fire," to this
day some individuals, ignorant of the facts, tell and retell Taxil's
stories as the truth. Even after he admitted his hoax, some individuals
wanted to believe they were true stories. Conversely, those responsible
elements in the Catholic Church were profoundly embarrassed by Taxil's
admissions, for they sought only the truth, and their own unwitting
assistance aided his trickery immensely.

Homsar
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http://www.watermarkradio.com/

A radio show in Canada interviewing Todd Wagner, Pastor of Watermark.

Click on "interview" at the bottom of the page.
AgGrad99
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quote:
Crazy stuff. In the Catholic Church, the seal of the Confessional is absolute. The priest is forbidden to ever reveal what he has heard from the penitent to anyone, ever, even if it means going to jail


Which confuses me.

If Matthew outlines the proper method...why does the Catholic church deviate from it?

Not flaming, but curious...
Guadaloop474
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The apostles and priests were given the power, by Jesus, to bind and loose sins through the power of the Holy Spirit, in John 20. I just don't know how the priest would know which sins to bind, and which ones to loose, unless he knows what they are.

And I don't know how you keep people coming back to confession if the priest blabs about it to whomever. That would be a sure way to stop confessions from happening forever. If a murderer comes in there and confesses his sin, I would think that absolution would be withheld until such time that he turns himself in. Otherwise, I don't believe that he would be truly repentant. St. Padre Pio withheld absolution many times if he perceived that the penitent was holding something back, and wouldn't give it until the penitent quit shacking up, or whatever sinful activity he was doing.
chris93
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99 -- I think the passage from Matthew outlines how to deal with inter-personal relationships -- how to reconcile with one another when one believer sins against another. What happens in a Catholic confessional reconciles the sinner with God. Two different and necessary actions.

AgGrad99
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Could you guys reference the scripture for me? I would rather read it for myself.....
The Kingfish
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Bob75 - pot meet kettle

R.I.P. Buddy D
AggieDave02
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aggrad99...

Matthew 18:15-18

also...

James 5:16

[This message has been edited by AggieDave02 (edited 6/14/2006 12:11p).]
Wakebrad
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I would be so pissed if they did that. I hope the Does win the suit.

Watermark sucks anyway. I visited that church a couple times. It was like the pastor was trying to see how many sermons he could fit into 1. I lost the whole point of the message because there were so many.
aggiebrad94
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Interesting that the Priest has the power over whether the confessor is forgiven or not. What scripture allows for a human to decide this?
AggieDave02
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aggiebrad94...

Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

However, it is God that works through the priest...not the priest by himself.

[This message has been edited by AggieDave02 (edited 6/14/2006 2:00p).]
Homsar
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quote:
I would be so pissed if they did that. I hope the Does win the suit.

He is the one who signed the membership covenant to be held accountable by the church for his actions. Don't join the church unless you are willing to be loved the way God proscribes.
Homsar
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quote:
Interesting that the Priest has the power over whether the confessor is forgiven or not. What scripture allows for a human to decide this?


I don't even see where you get that he claims to have that authority.
AggieDave02
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quote:
willing to be loved the way God proscribes


with friends like that...who needs enemies? lol
Wakebrad
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quote:
He is the one who signed the membership covenant to be held accountable by the church for his actions. Don't join the church unless you are willing to be loved the way God proscribes.

Ever read "Quitters Incorporated" by Stephen King? I'd never expect actions like this out of a church.

I bet that stuff was buried way in the back and never mentioned to them. There's no way you can read everything you sign and I wouldn't expect a wolf in sheep's clothing when signing a church membership. I wonder what BS they have in the membership I signed for my church. Hopefully they don't go OT on me and start taking an eye for an eye as prescribed by the Bible.
Homsar
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quote:
I bet that stuff was buried way in the back and never mentioned to them.

Why do you judge based on your presuppositions?

I am a member at Watermark and I remember signing this membership pledge.

Also, every church is supposed to follow this exact procedure outlined explicitly in Matthew 18.
Homsar
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quote:
with friends like that...who needs enemies? lol

Like it or not, it is what God expects. If you don't like it, you are free to come to WM on Sunday and leave with no one even asking you about your private business.

Also, there are alot of churches who dont care at all what you do. You are free to go there.

aggiebrad94
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quote:
His only recourse is to not offer absolution through the Holy Spirit if he feels that the sinner is unrepentant.

From the second post on this thread. Dave, I still see nothing to indicate a Priest need be involved in that transaction.
AggieDave02
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aggiebrad94...

It depends on who you believe is within apostolic succession...I believe that the Roman Catholic priesthood is. If God gave Peter the keys to bind and loose, then, through apostolic succession, Catholic priests have that same ability.
Wakebrad
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quote:
I am a member at Watermark and I remember signing this membership pledge.

And do you remember this section in the bylaws?

Traditionally bylaws are lengthy and hidden. My guess is this clause is probably not even on a piece of paper signed by Mr. Doe.
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