In this, therefore, whether God uses the agency of man, or works immediately by his own power, it is always by his word that he manifests himself to those whom he designs to draw to himself. Hence Paul designates faith as the obedience which is given to the Gospel, (Rom. 1: 5; ) and writing to the Philippians, he commends them for the obedience of faith, (Phil. 2: 17.) For faith includes not merely the knowledge that God is, but also, nay chiefly, a perception of his will toward us. It concerns us to know not only what he is in himself, but also in what character he is pleased to manifest himself to us. We now see, therefore, that faith is the knowledge of the divine will in regard to us, as ascertained from his word. And the foundation of it is a previous persuasion of the truth of God. So long as your mind entertains any misgivings as to the certainty of the word, its authority will be weak and dubious, or rather it will have no authority at all. Nor is it sufficient to believe that God is true, and cannot lie or deceive, unless you feel firmly persuaded that every word which proceeds from him is sacred, inviolable truth….

But the human mind, when blinded and darkened, is very far from being able to rise to a proper knowledge of the divine will; nor can the heart, fluctuating with perpetual doubt, rest secure in such knowledge. Hence, in order that the word of God may gain full credit, the mind must be enlightened, and the heart confirmed, from some other quarter. We shall now have a full definition of faith, if we say that it is a firm and sure knowledge of the divine favor toward us, founded on the truth of a free promise in Christ, and revealed to our minds, and sealed on our hearts, by the Holy Spirit. -- Calvin – Institutes III. Ii. 6,7

This is the "U" in the TULIP of Calvinism: Unconditional election.

Man is unable to comprehend the things of God, so God gives the understanding.

"Unconditional election" is not in the Bible....

So are you saying that God granting you grace is determined by something special He saw in you or by something you did? Maybe there is something about you that is just a little bit better than those who never come to know Him. Maybe you are just a little bit wiser and therefore make the right choices or maybe you are the product of better parents. Maybe you just weighed the alternatives and following the example of Christ just seemed right. What is it that makes you a believer? Do wisdom, ability, the circumstance of your birth, etc.. all not come from God? What is it? Be careful how you answer, lest any man should boast.

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"Unconditional election" is not in the Bible....

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Neither is "Trinity".

Many non-Calivinist confuse "unconditional election" with "unconditional salvation". They are two different things. I could be wrong, but it sounds like you are confusing the two.



Apollos.ws
think.learn.know

Once again wrong questions based on wrong ideas if you want to know what God has said through His Word.

Calvin sometimes gets his ideas right and sometimes wrong, he is surely not the Sure teacher of the Way.

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"Man is unable to comprehend the things of God, so God gives the understanding."

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Ammmm, so man is able to understand what God gives or he is not you just said two different things.

Do you mean through God man is able to understand.

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 5/6/2006 7:34a).]

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So are you saying that God granting you grace is determined by something special He saw in you or by something you did? Maybe there is something about you that is just a little bit better than those who never come to know Him. Maybe you are just a little bit wiser and therefore make the right choices or maybe you are the product of better parents. Maybe you just weighed the alternatives and following the example of Christ just seemed right. What is it that makes you a believer? Do wisdom, ability, the circumstance of your birth, etc.. all not come from God? What is it? Be careful how you answer, lest any man should boast.

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Certainly circumstances play a part, but you still have to choose to accept God's gift.

Is there something better about me or gives me the ability to make better choices? I don't know. I've been angry at people before but, unlike murderers on death row, I've chosen not to kill. Am I better than the men on death row?

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Be careful how you answer, lest any man should boast.

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This is another thing you Predeterminationalists don't get, don't see in yourselves... You determine if YOU think someone is boasting based on your own private ideas regarding what boasting means.

Rejecting FREE WILL shows how extreme your ideas are. You get your wrong idea about God's Omnipotence, then bam, you wrap the entire world around your wrong notion of what that means to mankind.

Offering Christ was God's perfect will toward mankind.

TTech, why did you respond to the gospel? Why is it that it made sense to you? Let's put this in perspective. Imagine, if you will, that you were one of those "murderers" you mentioned, and one day someone presented the gospel to you. Let's say that it made perfect sense and you truly understood that there is a heaven and a hell and you have sinned against God. You have been told that the only way to go to heaven and avoid eternal damnation, eternal suffering, eternal burning, etc... is to accept Christ as your Savior and give your life to Him. If someone truly believed that, would they possibly choose eternal damnation for a few good years on earth? I mean if you TRULY believed it? Ofcourse you couldn't. The reason people reject the gospel is because they don't believe it. It's foolishness. There is no heaven or hell in their mind. If you truly believed it, you wouldn't reject it. Now, why is it that you believe? What is it about you that allowed you to believe? Was it the way you grew up, some innate goodness, understanding, what??? Any answer you come up with as the reason has to lead back to God giving you the goodness, the understanding, the circumstance, etc...

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If someone truly believed that, would they possibly choose eternal damnation for a few good years on earth? I mean if you TRULY believed it? Ofcourse you couldn't.

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I disagree. My grandmother TRULY believed that smoking was terrible for her and would shave years off her life. Yet she did it anyway because she chose the short term pleasure.

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The reason people reject the gospel is because they don't believe it.

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Some don't believe it. Some just aren't willing to "pay the price" by changing their lifestyle.

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Be careful how you answer, lest any man should boast.

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I've never understood that angle either, as it pertains to free choice. I think it's more boastful to say "God picked me for heaven and you for hell, and there's nothing you can do about it".

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"Unconditional election" is not in the Bible....

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Considering some of our recent "Mary" arguments, this is ironic.

Notice, as usual, when we start to get on different sides of the fence on election, we start to argue using many extra-biblical arguments.

We say things like, "the God I know wouldn't do things like that."

or

"You can't have responsibility without choice."

or

I could go on, but my point is this: We should determine doctrine based on scripture, not on our own images of what we think God should be. He is God, and He doesn't have to fit our ideas of fair, unfair, right, and wrong.

By definition, God, who is infinitely transcendent, is also infinitely unfathomable.

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Considering some of our recent "Mary" arguments, this is ironic.

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Lone - So, you agree then - being in the bible is not a prerequisite to being true?

While the word "trinity" may not be in the bible, it collectively describes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...which, of course, are in the bible.

Regarding "unconditional election", I'm assuming that the poster was arguing the concept, not the actual term.

Wow, I didn’t think it was going to start all of this, but then one can never plan for what others are going to do.

To start with I don’t even think that the analysis of what he said was very good, and then some people came in and started throwing terms and ideas around like freewill, and that some people are denying that we have it (while assuming that freewill is synonymous with freedom of choice) , and other such ignorant statements.

Calvin really says a lot of things there. Mostly he talks about and gives some good definitions of the Christian Faith.

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Lone - So, you agree then - being in the bible is not a prerequisite to being true?

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My tag is The Lone Stranger, that is true, and it in not in scripture.

My point was you pointed out a term that is not literally used in scripture indicating that it was not true. I found that amusing in light of all of the "Mary" doctrines that are created by the RC church but not found in scripture.

I found that ironic; that is true, but it is not in scripture, but, also, it is not an eternal doctrine either.

ttechguy - Glad to see you back...

Lone - So if I understand you correctly, here is how you see things...

Catholic stuff not in the Bible = False teaching and apostate...

Protestant stuff not in the Bible = True teaching...Tell me more !!

Oh well...

Most Calvinists believe that man is not able to come to God in his natural state (spiritually dead). Thus they in essence have to be born again before they can "choose" to be born again. I don’t believe that man in his natural state is unable to come to God or unable to be influenced by the Holy Spirit with truth. If we believe that, then it would stand to reason that we would also believe that spiritually alive man (as in the first Adam) would not have been able to be influenced by satan (or else maybe satan is more effective than the Holy Spirit? ... NOT). Or maybe God went in and changed Adam's heart first to a "dead" condition so he could then fall for satan's lies ... NOT.

Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth and you SHALL be saved (not “will already have been saved”).

BigLeroy,

No Calvinist believes that they have to be born again before they can "choose" to be born again.

No Calvinist believes that the pre-fallen Adam was dead in sin.

No Calvinist on this board believes that you know what you are talking about.

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No Calvinist on this board believes that you know what you are talking about.

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Notafraid ... I couldn't care less ... but its great that you can speak for everybody. What an ego! You come across constantly as a self righteous, know it all, pig of pharisee ... that's just the truth.

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Notafraid ... I couldn't care less ... but its great that you can speak for everybody. What an ego!

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Actually it’s you who tried to tell me what I believe. I can speak for Calvinists, because I not only am one, but I actually know the doctrines. When you try to speak against something someone else believes, you should know what you are talking about, and you don’t, but that has not stopped you from pretending that you do. I can think of no other reason that someone would do that than they have an unrealistic self confidence about what think they know.

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You come across constantly as a self righteous, know it all, pig of pharisee ... that's just the truth.

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Actually the doctrine of unconditional election is the opposite of “self righteousness”. Those who think God chose them because of what they do, or were going to do, or what they choose, or are going to choose is a doctrine that teaches some system of self merit, and self determination. That would be the kinds of things you have argued for, though you did not call them by those names.

As far as the charge of being a “pig of Pharisee”, I don’t even know what that is, but it sounds bad. I do know that Pharisees were legalistic, and thought they were better in God’s eyes, or perhaps chosen because of actions of their will, which again would be more consistent with your beliefs. So again, I must question the disconnect with what you seem to think that you know, with reality. And again, I must simply deduce that when you say these things, you just don’t know what you are talking about.

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You come across constantly as a self righteous, know it all, pig of pharisee ... that's just the truth.

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You would think after having been told this numerous times in round about ways on this board that this truth would finally dawn on your lightning quick mind ... oh well, I still believe in miracles ... but this one is a real faith project.

I really do like that phrase "pig of a Pharisee". It's a great descriptive.

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Lone - So if I understand you correctly, here is how you see things...

Catholic stuff not in the Bible = False teaching and apostate...

Protestant stuff not in the Bible = True teaching...Tell me more !!

Oh well...

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I assume that you are being amusing. Because if you read and understand my posts it would be impossible to come to those conclusions, at least assuming you have average comprehension skills.

BigLeroy

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You would think after having been told this numerous times in round about ways on this board that this truth would finally dawn on your lightning quick mind ... oh well, I still believe in miracles ... but this one is a real faith project.

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The weight of a critique often has to with the person who says it, and the purpose of them saying it. Also, my mind is not so lightning quick, but thanks for the complement.

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I really do like that phrase "pig of a Pharisee". It's a great descriptive.

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hmm…