Why the Vatican still has a stake in illegal immigration
Op-Ed by Richard D. Sloan
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/14480913.htm

jk - Thanks for posting that bigotry from the past, which still exists to this day in this country...It's always useful to go back and see where we came from, and how far we have to go to overcome ignorance and hate. After JPII, one would think that a lot of this had gone away.

That article is "spot on". Religion equals politics and the vatican's policy are all about increasing its power base though over population (no contraceptives, no abortions, have as many kids as you can regardless if you can support them, etc.). The uneducated masses in South America that follow the Pope's every command is startling. The problem is when these masses start running out of resources, where are they going to turn? Probably, North.

I think it’s great that we Prots let you Roman Catholics into this country. You guys should be grateful that you weren’t stuck in some kind of backwards Roman Catholic society like Mexico or something. Even the Enlightenment humanists of Europe helped culture along while Rome was busy trying to prop up monarchies.

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I think it’s great that we Prots let you Roman Catholics into this country. You guys should be grateful that you weren’t stuck in some kind of backwards Roman Catholic society like Mexico or something. Even the Enlightenment humanists of Europe helped culture along while Rome was busy trying to prop up monarchies.

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What do you have going on internally that would prompt a response like this?

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What do you have going on internally that would prompt a response like this?

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A knowledge of history, and a knowledge that most RCs don’t understand or admit how they never would have formed our society. That it was formed as a counter to the RC worldview, and that the many blessings such as the fact that commoners like you and me are educated sprang out of the Reformed worldview.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/5/2006 9:31a).]

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I think it’s great that we Prots let you Roman Catholics into this country.

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Notafraid at his worst.

You ever wonder why those most on the side of "The United States was founded based on Christian principles" are protestants? They mistakenly believe that their brand of Christianity was somehow responsible for the founding of the United States. That the ultimate culmination of the protestant reformation was founding of this great nation, further proof that the US of A is the greatest nation in the world.

Now don’t misunderstand that I think the founding fathers were not Christian or guided by Christian principles, the fallacy I am pointing out is the mistaken association with protestantism alone, at the exclusion of Catholicism.

Notafraid and his ilk are trapped in the 18th and 19th century mindset that immigrants (read Catholics) are coming to take over their democracy and bow down to the Pope. The popery, the papists, you name it they said it, and worse still, they still say it (in writing, on this bbs no less!). They were afraid then, and are afraid now. Speak English! Pay income taxes on your $3/hr. job! Lest we support these indigent children, most of whom were born here and are American citizens by virtue of that fact. His way of life is changing, and he fears change (perhaps you need to dust off YYZ or greatheart).

To him, it’s his protestant nation, and it’s slowly slipping through his fingertips. They faced this down when Kennedy was in office, a Catholic, they were afraid of what direction he would take the country in, since as all protestants know, Catholics believe the Pope can’t sin and will obey him without question in matters unrelated to faith and morals. Now the next biggest challenge is the “immigration problem,” for a nation built by immigrants.

From the original article:

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It is not mere coincidence that many of our immigration laws have gone unenforced, that several Supreme Court justices are now Catholic, or that so many of the immigrants and demonstrators are Catholic.

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The great Vatican City, Italy conspiracy has been discovered!!

Never mind that current proposed legislation will make it a crime to offer care to undocumented immigrants. That’s not our Christian duty to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, and treat the sick!

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Our borders provide the “protected environment” in which we may experiment and excel to make our country great. Without such a “protected environment,” we will be enmeshed in a world-wide sea of muck.

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A sea of Catholic muck! Brilliant!

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The U.S. cannot be a beacon to the world if we allow ourselves to be dragged down into that muck. It is the solemn and absolute duty of our government to preserve and control our borders. Refusal to do so is tantamount to treason.

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Even the most obtuse can see the word choices here and how his personal religious beliefs have clouded his judgement.

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A knowledge of history, and a knowledge that most RCs don’t understand or admit how they never would have formed our society. That it was formed as a counter to the RC worldview, and that the many blessings such as the fact that commoners like you and me are educated sprang out of the Reformed worldview

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Enlighten me, Notafraid. How did the renaissance happen?


[This message has been edited by Ronnie (edited 5/5/2006 9:38a).]

Ronnie,

Well, first thing, I think the guy who wrote the article might have some points, but that his views are a little extreme. Second, you never backed up any of the stuff you said about me, or about my views of the founding of this nation with any facts. I think you should do that.

Here is the most extensive a collection of primary source documents pertaining to early American history that I know of. Aside from a few here and there, like from Columbus, please tell me how they are Roman Catholic based.

http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/primarysources.html



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/5/2006 9:51a).]

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A knowledge of history, and a knowledge that most RCs don’t understand or admit how they never would have formed our society. That it was formed as a counter to the RC worldview,

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Good grief.

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Good grief.

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Where are the RCs that know history?

It is a fact that where the Reformation was going strong in Northern Europe, the Enlightenment in Southern, Rome was busy trying to prop up Catholic monarchies, and IMO is still trying to play catch-up.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/5/2006 9:56a).]

Whatever. You win. We are ignorant.

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Well, first thing, I think the guy who wrote the article might have some points, but that his views are a little extreme.

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Yeah, just a tad.

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Second, you never backed up any of the stuff you said about me, or about my views of the founding of this nation with any facts. I think you should do that.

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Am I wrong, or isn’t that your belief in a nutshell? I’m not going to go try to explain your views for you. If I am wrong or off-base, let me know. It could just be my wild speculation, but it is what I have gleaned from your posts over the years…

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Aside from a few here and there, like from Columbus, please tell me how they are Roman Catholic based.

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I didn’t say it was all Catholic based.

Anything to say about the Renaissance?

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Am I wrong, or isn’t that your belief in a nutshell? I’m not going to go try to explain your views for you. If I am wrong or off-base, let me know. It could just be my wild speculation, but it is what I have gleaned from your posts over the years…

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You say that you are not going to try to explain my views, and then you want me to clarify if you explained my views right or not… Those two things are not consistent with each other.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/5/2006 10:17a).]

Is your mexican hat dance around my questions in honor of cinco de mayo?

"Whatever. You win. We are ignorant."

I don't think anybody is calling anybody ignorant, I just think a little family planning encouragement from the religious leaders that control these people would help society as a whole for everybody.

Notafraid,

you act like the Reformation was a theological revolution and not a political one as well. Who gave the reformation it's first real "legitamizing" victory? Henry, and for some damn solid theological reasons too..

you keep saying the catholic church was "propping up monarchies". you're right. they were. but you act like it's something evil and like there was some other form of gov't in europe at the time...

1550-1750 Europe = 1945-1990 Europe

protestant gov't vs. catholic gov't

communist gov't vs. democratic gov't

Ronnie,

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Is your mexican hat dance around my questions in honor of cinco de mayo?

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No, I was just affording you the opportunity to not be inconsistent. Apparently you don’t mind. I have things that I understand about history, and I shared some of them in my posts on this thread. If you want to comment on them, or ask me about them that’s fine, but all you did was make up a bunch of stuff that you say I believe, then you pretended like you didn’t do that, then you asked me to clarify which of the stuff you said I believed was correct, then you pretended like my pointing that out was avoiding your questions.

I don't want to waste time in your pretend world.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/5/2006 11:13a).]

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I have things that I understand about history, and I shared some of them in my posts on this thread.

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Not really. You posted one link, and it proves my point that protestant ideas are not the only foundation of the USA.

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all you did was make up a bunch of stuff that you say I believe

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Well do you? My opinion is out there, now its your turn to comment. Based on your dancing around and not answering it directly, what do you want me to think?

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then you pretended like you didn’t do that

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Well I am trying to paraphrase your thoughts, in my opinion, through the evidence of your posts I have read. I'm not making anything up. If I am lying, point it out to me.

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then you asked me to clarify which of the stuff you said I believed was correct, then you pretended like my pointing that out was avoiding your questions.

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Do what with the who now? Just answer these simple straightforward questions:

Do you believe the USA was founded on protestant only ideas?

Is there some idea I have attributed to you in my posts that is false or untrue?

Ronnie,

It's just not worth my time to try and educate the unwilling.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/5/2006 11:35a).]

What makes me unwilling? The fact that I am Catholic?

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I don't want to waste time in your pretend world.

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By definition, aren't all religions, pretend?

Notafraid- Wow, just wow. Thank you so very much in letting us poor ignorant Catholics live in your Protestant paradise. Funny I don't remember from my Western Civ courses that the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment were exclusively a Protestant movements. I seem to remember that the Catholic Italian peninsula was the center of the Renaissance and that Catholic France was often the center of the Age of Reason.





[This message has been edited by jkag89 (edited 5/5/2006 12:04p).]

Notafraid, you sir are insufferable.

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The fact that I am Catholic?

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Yes, I believe a typical Roman Catholic. I believe it takes an A-Typical Roman Catholic.

jkag

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Notafraid- Wow, just wow. Thank you so very much in letting us poor ignorant Catholics live in your Protestant paradise. Funny I don't remember from my Western Civ courses that the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment were exclusively a Protestant movements. I seem to remember that the Catholic Italian peninsula was the center of the Renaissance and that Catholic France was often the center of the Age of Reason.

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Yes, I think that the Universities (Assisted by Aquinas, and His help in getting the pagan philosophers accepted) helped usher in the Renascence, which in turn ushered in the Enlightenment. I would say that the Reformation was in full swing in northern Europe where the Enlightenment was going on in the south. There is a huge difference between Reformation based England and Enlightenment based France that really is contrasted well in fictional book Tale of Two Cities. America was decidedly based in Reformed thought, as far as the general worldview of form and freedom. One of the things I like about that primary sources site that I linked is that it’s really just putting the information out there, but there are such great introductions to some of the works that give a hint about certain things like this:


The Dutch Declaration of Independence (1581); This Calvinistic document served as a model for the U.S. Declaration of Independence. In his Autobiography, Jefferson indicated that the "Dutch Revolution" gave evidence and confidence to the Second Continental Congress that the American Revolution could likewise commence and succeed. Recent scholarship has has suggested that Jefferson may have consciously drawn on this document. John Adams said that the Dutch charters had "been particularly studied, admired, and imitated in every State" in America, and he stated that "the analogy between the means by which the two republics [Holland and U.S.A.] arrived at independency... will infallibly draw them together."

Lex Rex, Samuel Rutherford (1644). This treatise systematized the Calvinistic political theories which had developed over the previous century. Rutherford was a colleague of John Locke's parents. Most of John Locke's Second Treatise on Government is reflective of Lex Rex. From Rutherford and other Commonwealthmen such as George Lawson, through Locke, these theorists provided the roots of the Declaration of Independence. This page provides the list of questions Lex Rexaddresses.


The Westminster Catechism (1646) Second only to the Bible, the "Shorter Catechism" of the Westminster Confession was the most widely published piece of literature in the pre-revolutionary era in America. It is estimated that some five million copies were available in the colonies. With a total population of only four million people in America at the time of the Revolution, the number is staggering. The Westminster Catechism was not only a central part of the colonial educational curriculum, learning it was required by law. Each town employed an officer whose duty was to visit homes to hear the children recite the Catechism. The primary schoolbook for children, the New England Primer, included the Catechism. Daily recitations of it were required at these schools. Their curriculum included memorization of the Westminster Confession and the Westminster Larger Catechism. There was not a person at Independence Hall in 1776 who had not been exposed to it, and most of them had it spoon fed to them before they could walk.

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) In addition to being the decree of Parliament as the standard for Christian doctrine in the British Kingdom, it was adopted as the official statement of belief for the colonies of Massachusetts and Connecticut. Although slighlty altered and called by different names, it was the creed of Congregationalist, Baptist, and Presbyterian Churches throughout the English speaking world. Assent to the Westminster Confession was officially required at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. Princeton scholar, Benjamin Warfield wrote: "It was impossible for any body of Christians in the [English] Kingdoms to avoid attending to it."


Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin (1540). Calvin's magnum opus. The most celebrated American historian, George Bancroft, called Calvin "the father of America," and added: "He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty." To John Calvin and the Genevan theologians, President John Adams credited a great deal of the impetus for religious liberty (Adams, WORKS, VI:313). This document includes a justification for rebellion to tyrants by subordinate government officials; this particular justification was at the root of the Dutch, English, and American Revolutions.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/5/2006 2:21p).]

I think this thread is a perfect example on what I stated in a previous thread about secularism v religion and prayer in school. Just because the religious factions have joined forces for now, doesn't mean all of the ugly history behind them IN THIS COUNTRY(and there is a lot) won't resurface if they do ultimately win.

Not that I am anti-religion guys, but this is exactly the type of stuff I am talking about(and you guys are the civil educated types, it gets worse).

In any case, the Protestants fought amongst themselves plenty here as well Muster. Not to mention the fact that many of the dominant sects of that time(the founding) have not survived. Baptists, which were a chastised(and sometimes persecuted) sect have come to grow much larger in numbers and power.

Muster seems to argue that all Protestants are created equal throughout history.

[This message has been edited by H.E. Pennypacker (edited 5/5/2006 2:42p).]

FOr instance, I don't think I've ever met a Puritan. They were pretty big stuff back then.

The argument never changes. ARe NY and the Northeast worse off for the waves of Catholic immigrants?

Of course, we shouldn't forget that Indiana is still the most active Klan state(I think this is still true). SO consider the source.

I hope I did not give the impression that I think any religion is any more correct than another. I think all religions are bunk, but one of the most dominant sects promotes policies of overpopulation which are not good for humans, natural resources, or the environment.

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FOr instance, I don't think I've ever met a Puritan.

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You have met one in guys like me, at least theologically. We “Reformed”, or “Calvinists” would be the closest descendents of them.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/5/2006 4:42p).]

Redstone - Apparently bigotry is a permanent fixture of presbyterianism/notafraid...

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The mass is a damnable heresy (2 Peter 2:1)

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, from http://corkfpc.com/rcerror.html

am i not worthy of a rebuke?

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Who gave the reformation it's first real "legitamizing" victory? Henry, and for some damn solid theological reasons too..

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conversations - OK, here's your rebuke - How can you say that Henry VIII's divorce and not getting an annullment was a d*** solid theological reason?

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i hope you're joking along with me..?

maybe i should've added the [/sarcasm]...

conver2sations,

Well, I can do much better than texasag73! Just watch!

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am i not worthy of a rebuke?

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Down! Down you hell dog! Crawl back to your pit you sulfur smelling devil boy! You disgusting bag of bile and pig vomit! I rebuke ye, unworthy rat booger! Get ye behind me, because of thy stench of eternal wrongness!

There, how was that?!