Why do we need hermeneutics?

357 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 19 yr ago by Guadaloop474
Ichabod
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why don't people just say what they really mean?

If the bible is the one tool Christians have to spread the faith then why is it so flawed or need a science to interpret?

Makes no sense to me.

Another reason why I think the bible should not be taken literally. I only get about three things out of the bible in a literal sense.

Another thing, who has the right to interpret?

And it sure is easy to "hermeneutic" ones way into proving ones point.
Aggieology
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I assume you fail to see the irony of the fact that you are expecting people to use hermeneutics to interpret your post.

Everybody, whether they know it or not, uses the science of hermeneutics every day. Get a dictionary or a basic-level Speech Comm book and look it up.
setsmachine
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Ever been in a literature class? People can read a book, a poem, a short story, an essay, whatever, and all come to different conclusions about what it really means. Why is this? Is this because these pieces of literature are flawed in some way? Is it even possible for every person to agree on what everything means?

If this is not possible in dealing wih literature, what type of media would you have chosen to communicate with people for the next 2000+ years? Prophets that communicate and clarify? Not many people listened to them anyway when they were around.

Perhaps it is simply the nature of humanity to have different perspectives and ideas on what something means, and this is not something to shy away from, but instead embrace so that we can learn from one another.
Ichabod
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Good posts.

But everything in this earth is not perfect. The only perfect thing is God. If the bible is God's word then why is it not perfect? Or is it.

I don't think it is because I don't think everything in the bible is God's word.

i wish ya'll could understand that. I'm trying.
OSAg01
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First of all, how do you describe an attribute of God or of Heaven or any spiritual thing using human words without needing clarification and interpretation? If the Bible says "God has a strong right arm", does it literally mean his physical hairy pale or dark-skinned arm is capable of lifting an enormous amount of weight, or is the author describing God's strength in the best way he knows how? Does heaven really have streets made of physical gold and is the sea really made of crystal like I got for my wedding presents or is the author signifying its beauty and majesty? Given that the Bible was written so long ago, does language never change or evolve. Did Jesus and his buddies talk about how "cool" things were in grade school? If you were a prophet in the first century and you had a vision of a car in the future, would you say "I saw a 2005 Ford Expedition that was a metallic gray color and had chrome wheels" or would you compare it to some sort of super strong horse or chariot? You need hermeneutics when studying any book, let alone scripture.

It seems to me some people would rather just dismiss the Bible altogether to cover up their lack of persistence in proper study. Some people like to point out what they see as "contradictions" and post them here without doing any objective study, knowing that many here are also intellectually lazy and will give them, rather than the Bible, the benefit of the doubt. And why is that? Because the Bible contains the law and the law convicts. Accepting the Bible as truth, means accepting that one is a sinner and therefore eternally separated from God, apart from the atoning work of Jesus Christ. And nobody wants to be accountable to anyone else for their lives, especially God.
Ichabod
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ya'll are still not answering my question.

Quit using crazy analogies.

"The strong right arm" argument doesn't work for me.

Who wrote "strong right arm" in the bible?

So what do ya'll interpret the line of Jesus saying there is no way but him. That has to be interpreted another way also. Or are ya'll using selective interpretation.

Ya'll are quick to throw out the "obvious" lines but when it comes to something that in my opinion is a fallacy ya'll spin it as interpretation to ya'lls liking.
Notafraid
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quote:
"The strong right arm" argument doesn't work for me.


Why should someone have to take time to make something work for you?

I mean you could be the village idiot where you come from, so what does that make a person who tries to make things just so you can be happy about it?

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/1/2006 11:30p).]
Homsar
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Hermeneutics is not a result of God not being able to communicate with all cultures, but is a result of our limited knowledge. The Bible was written to people in a certain culture, and that culture is not ours.

If you are really interested in hermeneutics and the need for it, which I am sure you are not, check out Roy Zuck's Basic Bible Interpretation.
Ichabod
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Ya'll still are not addressing all of my posts.

What about the spin ya'll put on stuff?
The Lone Stranger
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We all use hermeneutics. I use it in tring to decipher what my wife is saying. When my son talks about school, I listen for what he is saying and what he is not saying.

The question is like asking...why do we ever have to interpret what people are trying to say to us? Can't we just understand what we are saying"

I have misunderstood people on this forum, and have also been misunderstood. Both times, even though we didn't call them that, hermeneutics were used to try to sort our the ambiguity.

If you didn't understand what I just typed, and you ask for a clarification or some more context, then.....

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 5/2/2006 11:45a).]
Ichabod
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Thats the thing, you said exactly what you meant.

No interpretation is needed because you didn't say "now go have sex with my wife" and then spin as well you have to interpret it differently.

You said what you wanted and meant to say.

So why didn't the bible do that?

Whatever idiots let whatever books get in the bible now has modern day all confused.

I'm not confused because i get about three main messages out of the bible and ignore the rest.

Some of ya'll on the other hand have a quote for ANYTHING somebody says or tries to argue and its gross. The bible is just one big fairy tale that ya'll try to make come true.

If thats the case then why don't ya'll believe in Alice in Wonderland? I could Hermeneutic that story into a real one.
Notafraid
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Icabod,

quote:

Ya'll still are not addressing all of my posts.

What about the spin ya'll put on stuff?



Again, who are you? Why do you feel you can demand anything from anyone?
What assurance does anyone who takes time to address your demands, that you will comprehend what they say? You have already shown some signs that you aren’t very capable of communication, understanding, or higher social skills. Again, what proof do we have that you are not the village idiot, who goes around and wastes peoples time with his idiocy?

You should meet the common demands that you are a reasonable person before you demand that people reason with you.
Notafraid
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Evidence against you:

quote:

Whatever idiots let whatever books get in the bible now has modern day all confused.



Can’t write proper sentences…

quote:

I'm not confused because i get about three main messages out of the bible and ignore the rest.



Committed to the ultimate authority of your own autonomous reason.

quote:

The bible is just one big fairy tale that ya'll try to make come true.



You pretend to have independent and true knowledge about the ultimate nature of reality.

Things don't look too good for you right now... Can you provide any references from your home village?
Ichabod
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Notafraid actually your post does address my demands.

Now your attacking me because you have no answer.

What kind of Christian are you? I have not attacked anyone.
Ichabod
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Notafraid sorry i don't proofread everything.

Didnt know that would be used against me.

I didnt know we had to type perfect and complete sentences I guess fragment s dont work here.

obsession noted.

You're one of the christian posers who i pray for.
Notafraid
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quote:

Notafraid actually your post does address my demands.

Now your attacking me because you have no answer.



You just said I addressed your demands, then in the next sentence that I didn’t have an answer. That doesn’t even make any sense…

More evidence against you… Perhaps you should change your "demands" to "humble requests", and appeal to the kindness of others, because you seem to have no credibility from which to demand anything from anyone here.

quote:

What kind of Christian are you? I have not attacked anyone.



I am one who thinks and reasons.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/2/2006 12:06p).]
ramblin_ag02
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My attempt to read your last post without hermeneutics.

quote:
Thats the thing (what is the thing? what thing? who said anything about a thing and why would "that" be this thing?), you said exactly what you meant (I didn't hear anyone "say" anything. Do you have audio?).

No interpretation is needed (that's nice. If someone "needed" an interpretation and didn't get it bad things could happen) because you didn't say "now go have sex with my wife" (right, he didn't "say" anything) and then spin (what does rotational movement have to do with any of this?) as well you have to interpret it differently.

You said what you wanted and meant to say. (Am I the only one without audio here? What's all this speach going on?)

So why didn't the bible do that? (Inanimate objects don't "do" things. What is "that" anyway?)

Whatever idiots let whatever books get in the bible now has modern day all confused. (what is a "whatever idiot" or a "whatever book"? How can a "day" be confused?)

I'm not confused because i get about three main messages out of the bible (you have messages in your bible that you take out? All of my bible pages are fixed, and I don't remove them.) and ignore the rest. (How is the bible resting? Or are the messages resting?)

Some of ya'll on the other hand (they are on their other hand? Which hand are they supposed to be on? Why did they change?) have a quote for ANYTHING somebody says (that's one of the dangerous of the internet. People can quote everything you say) or tries to argue and its gross (how is any of this 144 or gross?). The bible is just one big fairy tale that ya'll try to make come true. (There aren't any fairies in the Bible. What is he talking about?)

If thats the case (if what is the case? is there a trial or carrying bag that I missed?) then why don't ya'll believe in Alice in Wonderland? (I believe in Alice in Wonderland. I am certain it exists and would continue to do so with or without my belief in it.) I could Hermeneutic that story into a real one.


Life without hermeneutics is fun.

[This message has been edited by ramblin_ag02 (edited 5/2/2006 12:10p).]
Ichabod
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notafraid you need help.

seriously you write Christian in your profile then attack people on an Internet message board while never answering any question i ask.

Then you just attack and attack

you are a poser, no wait you're just an everyday christian. if you can't answer my question in the topic then why post?

And making fun of grammatical errors is very childish and immature.

You will never win this argument POSER
Notafraid
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quote:

Notafraid sorry i don't proofread everything.

Didnt know that would be used against me.

I didnt know we had to type perfect and complete sentences I guess fragment s dont work here.

obsession noted.

You're one of the christian posers who i pray for.




More evidence:

Overstates a simple observation as an “obsession” , pretends to have secret knowledge of the conditions of others hearts.

Again, how can you demand that things comport to your desires and views, when they seem to skewed and corrupted? Can you perhaps give some evidence that you are truly an honest observer, and seeker of the truth?
jkag89
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quote:
I have not attacked anyone.

Not true, you called those who settled on the Biblical canon idiots.
Ichabod
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ramblin good post, i see your point. But you went too far to just aatack me. You could have left out a lot on that post.

I have never viewed language like that before. I dont think you read the bible like that though either and i think you're just trying to attack me along with notafraid.


Ichabod
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Notafraid can you?
ramblin_ag02
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quote:
I dont think you read the bible like that though either and i think you're just trying to attack me along with notafraid.


Of course I don't read the Bible that way. I use hermeneutics. You are the one suggesting we stop using hermeneutics, so I gave you an example.
Notafraid
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quote:

notafraid you need help.

seriously you write Christian in your profile then attack people on an Internet message board while never answering any question i ask.



You must earn the right to have your question answered.

quote:

Then you just attack and attack

you are a poser, no wait you're just an everyday christian. if you can't answer my question in the topic then why post?



I post because I want to.

quote:

And making fun of grammatical errors is very childish and immature.

You will never win this argument POSER



You still have not evidenced that you are capable of comprehending, or honestly weighing any answer you may be given. For all I know you are just one of the dime a dozen guys who shows up, posts a few days, then disappears. I am not going to cast pearls in front of a swine, and so you should have come here as a respectable, reasonable, person. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. If you truly don't believe you have barnyard manors, then you should re-read your posts, and see how they might come across.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/2/2006 12:20p).]
Ichabod
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I know I won't win this gang up of an argument but ramblin you have been the only one to answer my question without attacking me. Thanks.

I guess I had a different definition of hermeneutics.

So how do ya'll know how to interpret the bible does hermeneutics teach you that?

And ramblin in your argument above you were mocking basic english language which you have been speaking your whole life. What make anyone a pro in ancient dead languages?
Ichabod
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quote:
respectable, reasonable, person


YOU haven't been notafraid.

I don't HAVE to do anything. I haven't attacked posters the way you have. You seriously have some problems notafraid.

You defend the bible by attacking others. I don't think that is what Jesus had in mind.

Ramblin answered my question perfectly without attacking.

And you call yourself a christian, how?
pocketrockets06
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OK, Ichabod, how old are you really? I haven;t heard the word poser since sophomore year of high school.

As a sidenote, possibly the reasons that your questions are not being answered is because they are very poorly written. In a medium where we depend on the written word to find meaning, reading your posts feels like looking at muddy water.
Ichabod
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pocket you're right.

I'm just used to the rivalries and general board.

not much written word is needed over there.

and i really screwed up this whole post with my questions. i realize that. i post very fast and type very fast so i don't think out my posts like i should.

but when one i get attacked by another poster i tend to not care what i type.

POSER was the first thing that came to my mind.
What should i have used? i'm trying to bring back that word? and i guess were all old if we know what the word poser means.
Notafraid
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Ichabod,

I think part of your problem is that in all of these posts, you seem full of emotions. You have expressed your confusion, and frustrations in ways that, while they seem rude, and inappropriate, are just a general part of this instability and uncertainty you seem to be experiencing.

You also seem to have an inability to get your eyes off of yourself, and see things from others perspectives, or how what you might say affects others. Your problem is less to do with theological or interpretive specifics than it has to do with your own anger, and willfulness in the face of your trying to deal with God and His demands of you. You will either be hardened, or made beautiful by His coming near to you. I hope that it is a good end for you in all of this!

Blessings!
Ichabod
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Thanks notafraid, you're right.
Homsar
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quote:
If the bible is the one tool Christians have to spread the faith then why is it so flawed or need a science to interpret?

Your presupposition that anything that needs interpretation is flawed is wrong.

For example, don't look in the dictionary and give me a definition for the word "trunk."
Is there anything flawed with my question?

quote:
But everything in this earth is not perfect. The only perfect thing is God. If the bible is God's word then why is it not perfect? Or is it.

"Perfect" is a very loaded word. I would be much more inclined to say it is inerrant. The corrolaries of inerracy are:

1. Inspiration: all scripture is God-breathed. The Bible says exactly what He wants it to say.
(2 Tim 3:16)

2. Sufficiency: The Bible is sufficient revelation of what God wants to say. Nothing further is needed. (2 Tim 3:17)

3. Canonicity: The books of the Bible are worthy to be put together becuse they are inspired and sufficient. It is canonized because it is truth. God does not lie. (Rom 3:3-4)

quote:
So what do ya'll interpret the line of Jesus saying there is no way but him. That has to be interpreted another way also. Or are ya'll using selective interpretation.

That is what hermeneutics calls a timeless theological truth. After all the cultural and chronological variables are removed, it still retains the same meaning.

An example of a statement that needs hermeneutics is 2 Sam 1:2:

"On the third day a man arrived from the camp of Saul with his clothes torn and dirt on his head."

Tearing clothes and throwing dust on one's head were signs of mourning. What if you got in a time machine and went back to 2000 years ago and told the people back then that you once saw a line of people walking, dressed in black, with the front 6 carrying a box and the rest putting flowers on it? Would they understand what you were talking about?

So what other "points" of yours need to be addressed for you to believe the Bible?

This is simply a smoke screen for you to affirm to yourself that the Bible is untrue to confirm your own ideas.






[This message has been edited by Homsar (edited 5/2/2006 4:08p).]
Homsar
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quote:
Why do we need hermeneutics?


The more simple answer:

Because the meaning of a piece of communication is that which is interpreted by the receiver, not that which is sent by the sender. Therefore as long as it is to be our role as the hearer, we are going to screw it up. So it is in our best interest to interpret the only reliable Word of God as best we can.

[This message has been edited by Homsar (edited 5/2/2006 4:23p).]
The Lone Stranger
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quote:
I know I won't win this gang up of an argument but ramblin you have been the only one to answer my question without attacking me. Thanks.



Ichabod, I honestly did not attack you, or at least hope I didn't. If I did, or you percieved that I did, I apologize. However, you see that this misunderstanding itself relates to your initial queston?
Ichabod
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Yeah I totally see how i screwed up. I'm an idiot. I have never heard the term before. I was trying to debate some problems I have with the bible when its not hermeneutics at all.

I do apologize for my village idiotness
Guadaloop474
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Suppose you're traveling to work and you see a stop sign. What do you do? That depends on how you apply exegesis to the stop sign.



A postmodernist deconstructs the sign (i.e., he knocks it over with his car), thus ending forever the tyranny of the north-south traffic over the east-west traffic.

Similarly, a Marxist sees a stop sign as an instrument of class conflict. He concludes that the bourgeoisie use the north-south road and obstruct the progress of the workers on the east-west road.

A serious and educated Catholic believes that he cannot understand the stop sign apart from its interpretive community and their tradition. Observing that the interpretive community doesn't take it too seriously, he doesn't feel obligated to take it too seriously either.

An average Catholic (or Orthodox or Coptic or Anglican or Methodist or Presbyterian or whatever) doesn't bother to read the sign but he'll stop if the car in front of him does.

A fundamentalist, taking the text very literally, stops at the stop sign and then waits for it to tell him to go.

A preacher might look up "STOP" in his lexicons of English and discover that it can mean either:


something which prevents motion, such as a plug for a drain, or a block of wood that prevents a door from closing;or

a location where a train or bus lets off passengers.

The main point of his sermon the following Sunday on this text is: when you see a stop sign, it is a place where traffic is naturally clogged, so it is a good place to let off passengers from your car.

An Orthodox Jew does one of two things:


Take another route to work that doesn't have a stop sign so that he doesn't run the risk of disobeying the halachah, or

Stop at the stop sign, say "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, king of the universe, who hast given us thy commandment to stop," wait 3 seconds according to his watch, and then proceed.
Incidentally, the Talmud has the following comments on this passage: R[abbi] Meir says: He who does not stop shall not live long. R. Hillel says: Cursed is he who does not count to three before proceeding. R. Simon ben Yudah says: Why three? Because the Holy One, blessed be He, gave us the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. R. ben Isaac says: Because of the three patriarchs. R. Yehuda says: Why bless the Lord at a stop sign? Because it says: "Be still, and know that I am God."
R.Hezekiel says: When Jephthah returned from defeating the Ammonites,the Holy One, blessed be He, knew that a donkey would run out of the house and overtake his daughter; but Jephthah did not stop at the stop sign, and the donkey did not have time to come out. For this reason he saw his daughter first and lost her. Thus he was judged for his transgression at the stop sign.
R. Gamaliel says: R. Hillel, when he was a baby, never spoke a word, though his parents tried to teach him by speaking and showing him the words on a scroll. One day his father was driving through town and did not stop at the sign. Young Hillel called out: "Stop, father!" In this way, he began reading and speaking at the same time. Thus it is written: "Out of the mouth of babes." R. ben Jacob says: Where did the stop sign come from? Out of the sky, for it is written: "Forever, O Lord, your word is fixed in the heavens." R. ben Nathan says: When were stop signs created? On the fourth day, for it is written: "let them serve as signs." But R. Yehoshua says: ... (continues for three more pages...)


A Haredi [ultra-Orthodox "black hat" Jew] does the same thing as an Orthodox Jew, except that he waits 10 seconds instead of 3. He also replaces his brake lights with 1000 watt searchlights and connects his horn so that it is activated whenever he touches the brake pedal.

A Breslover Hasidic Jew sees the sign and makes hisboddidus (a form of spontaneous personal prayer) saying: "Robono Shel Olam [Master of the Universe] -- here I am, traveling on the road in Your service, and I'm about to face who knows what danger at this intersection in my life. So please watch over me and help me to get through this stop sign safely." Then, "looking neither to left nor right" as Rebbe Nachman advises, he joyfully accepts the challenge, remains focused on his goal -- even if the car rolls backward for a moment -- then he hits the gas pedal and forges bravely forward, overcoming all obstacles which the yetzer hara [evil inclination] might put in his path.

A Lubovitcher Hasidic Jew stops at the sign and reads it very carefully in the light of the Rebbe's teachings. (In former times he would have used his cell phone to call Brooklyn and speak to the Rebbe personally for advice, but this is no longer possible, may the Rebbe rest in peace.) Next, he gets out of the car and sets up a roadside mitzvah mobile [outreach booth], taking this opportunity to ask other Jewish drivers who stop at the sign whether or not they have put on tefillin today [male ritual] or whether they light Shabbos candles [female ritual]. Having now settled there, he steadfastly refuses to give up a single inch of the land he occupies until Moschiach [the Jewish Messiah] comes.

A Reform Jew sees the stop sign, and coasts up to it while contemplating the question "Do I personally feel commanded to stop?" During this internal process he edges into the intersection and is hit from behind by a car driven by a secular Jew who ignored the sign completely.

A Conservative Jew reacts by calling his rabbi and asking him whether stopping at this sign is required by unanimous ruling of the Commission on Jewish Law or if there is a minority position. While waiting for the rabbi's answer he is ticketed by a policeman for obstructing traffic.

A Reconstructionist Jew, seeing the stop sign, might say: First, this sign is part of our evolving civilization and therefore I must honor it and stop. On the other hand, since its origins are in the past, I must assert that "the past has a vote and not a veto," and therefore I must study the issue carefully and decide if the argument "to stop" is spiritually, intellectually and culturally compelling enough to convince me to stop. If yes, I will vote with the past. If not, I will veto it. Finally, is there any way that I can re-value or transvalue the stop sign's message for our own time?

The Renewal-Movement-Jew meditates on whether the STOP sign applies in all kabbalistic Four Worlds [Body-Emotion- Mind-Spirit] or only in some of them, and if so which ones? Must he stop feeling? thinking? being? driving? Since he has stopped to breathe and meditate on this question, he is quite safe while he does so, barukh HaShem. [Praise G-d.]

A scholar from the Jesus seminar concludes that the passage "STOP" undoubtedly was never uttered by Jesus himself, but belongs entirely to stage III of the Gospel tradition, when the church was first confronted by traffic in its parking lot.

A NT scholar notices that there is no stop sign on Mark Street but there is one on Matthew and Luke streets, and concludes that the ones on Luke and Matthew streets are both copied from a sign on a completely hypothetical street called "Q". There is an excellent 300 page discussion of speculations on the origin of these stop signs and the differences between the stop signs on Matthew and Luke street in the scholar's commentary on the passage. There is an unfortunate omission in the commentary, however: the author apparently forgot to explain what the text means.

An OT scholar points out that there are a number of stylistic differences between the first and second half of the passage "STOP". For example, "ST" contains no enclosed areas and 5 line endings, whereas "OP" contains two enclosed areas and only one line termination. He concludes that the authorfor the second part is different from the author for the first part and probably lived hundreds of years later. Later scholars determine that the second half is itself actually written by two separate authors because of similar stylistic differences between the "O" and the "P".

Another prominent OT scholar notes in his commentary that the stop sign would fit better into the context three streets back. (Unfortunately, he neglected to explain why in his commentary.) Clearly it was moved to its present location by a later redactor. He thus exegetes the intersection as though the stop sign were not there.

Because of the difficulties in interpretation, another OT scholar amends the text, changing "T" to "H". "SHOP" is much easier to understand in context than "STOP" because of the multiplicity of stores in the area. The textual corruption probably occurred because "SHOP" is so similar to "STOP" on the sign several streets back that it is a natural mistake for a scribe to make. Thus the sign should be interpreted to announce the existence of a shopping area.

A feminist scholar notes that all commentary refers to "he" and concludes she is thus exempt, so she runs the sign and is killed.

A radical feminist, observing what happened to the first feminist, concludes this is a misogynist plot to get all feminists killed by inciting them to run stop signs. So she gets out of the car and stages a protest against the inherent sexism in all traffic signs.

An observant Orthodox Jewish woman concludes that she is not allowed to observe the mitzvah [commandment] of stopping because she is niddah [menstruant]. This is a dilemma, because the stop sign is located on the way to the mikvah [ritual purification pool]. She refers the dilemma to all the Rabbinical scholars, who shrug.

A feminist Jewish woman sees this as a sign from the Shekhinah [feminine aspect of G-d) that translates roughly "enough already...."
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