I still have not heard an adequate answer for why sacrifice is needed for salvation.

If salvation is granted by God's grace, why is sacrifice needed?

Most of what I hear is because the Bible says so, referring back to the crucifixion and Old Testament practice of animal sacrifices.


It kind of reminds me of the scene from Star Trek V, when they journey to the center of the galaxy, and Kirk asks the question "What would God need with a starship?" and the being they think is God punishes him without answering.

Jesus sacrifice on the cross was payback to God for the just penalty for our human sins. If he hadn't done that, then we would be sacrificing mightily for all time for our sins.

And when Capt. Kirk asked the character he thought was God "Why does God need a starship", I would have answered Capt. Kirk with "For the same reason I used the Ark with Noah"....

Raj, I am not sure anyone can explain why God does what He does....but, He declared the need in His Word..

Heb 9:22
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Lev 17:11
11"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement."

So its because the Bible says so?

No other rational thought?

No other thought, Raj.....God doesnt explain everything He does to me, and I dont feel the need as a finite being to know the why's of everything He does....it is His requirement, and I accept it, on faith. If I understood everything about God, and knew everything about Him, well....it would be pretty boring.

[This message has been edited by fahraint (edited 4/30/2006 9:49a).]

Sin requires suffering as payback. Adam and Eve were forgiven for their sin of disobedience, but they had to suffer through childbearing and through the sweat of their brow to pay it back. We today are still suffering for their sin. David sinned by murdering Uriah the Hittite so that he could marry his wife Bathsheeba, and although he was forgiven, the horrible punishment of seeing his son die was meted out to him. It's no different today. You can create your own hell on earth by continuous sinning, and not repenting. Jesus sacrifice opened up the gates of heaven for mankind that had been closed since the day of Adam and Eve. All of those souls in prison (1 Peter 3:19) that had been waiting all of those years to enter heaven could now finally do so, after Jesus preached to them following Good Friday. And now that the gates of heaven are opened, thanks to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, you and I are free to enter. All you have to do to get in is to do what it says to do in the New Testament.

So I guess the alternative is that God is not interested in Justice. That He is in fact un-Just, winks His eye, and looks the other direction at injustice? Hmm. Who wan’t to know that God? He would actually be less than God, because he would be imperfect. Perhaps that kind of god would make one of the good Hindu demon Gods. But the one true God is perfectly holy and just, and will judge the Word in truth.

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No other rational thought?

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You are asking a question about Biblical principle and answering with Scripture isn’t rational??

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So I guess the alternative is that God is not interested in Justice.

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Since when is sacrifice justice? Is salvation by grace or by sacrifice?

Justice in the Hindu and Bhuddist view is the law of karma.

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Since when is sacrifice justice?

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I am sure that Jean Valjean in Les Misérables would feel quite sheepish to find this out!

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Is salvation by grace or by sacrifice?

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Grace is God’s unmerited favor. Christ’s sacrifice is the propitiation of God’s just wrath so that He might give us His own righteousness. That He bears our unrighteousness, is judged and condemned on the cross, gives us His own righteousness that we wear, and are judged as righteous before the Father (aka Justified) is a gift He gives us by His grace. Grace simply means that we do nothing to deserve it, and are humble recipients of this gift of glorious mercy! Amazing is it not? That God would do that for people who don’t deserve any of it, and in fact are sinners, at enmity with Him, making it even more amazing! That God would so love the unlovely. Can you think of anything more unworthy of such a great gift than one who gives God the proverbial finger? But that is what the scriptures teach. That while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly! Again I am simply amazed by this God!

Raj95,

Why don't you ask why I should care one bit what happened to the soldiers in WWII or Iraq. What does that have to do for me?

The answer is plainly clear for both your question and mine.

The soldiers gave their todays so we can have our tomorrows.

So did Christ, and in doing so he is the author of our salvation.

Just as you have no right to tell the author of a book how the story should go, you have no right to tell Christ what the terms of your salvationn is.

Christ sets the terms, you have a right to do it or not to do it. It's all up to you, btw your idea of salvation by grace alone is as false as your idea that we don't need to sacrafice.

Without sacrafice then we could mutter a few words of acceptance and then go out and become another Hitler and still have our salvation.

Sorry but thats not the Heaven I want to go to.

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Without sacrafice then we could mutter a few words of acceptance and then go out and become another Hitler and still have our salvation.

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When did I ever say this?

Raj,

I know that many have written on this topic, but the best treatment of the subject that I can think of comes from J.I. Packer's Knowing God. Read the chapter called "The Heart of the Gospel." It deals with a word called "propitiation," and may be of some use to you.

BTW, this book is probably one of the top 10 Christian books of the 20th century. However, I suspect it's a lot like the Bible - a lot of copies sold, but far fewer read.

Raj....this link will take you to in depth teaching of Yom Kippur from a Messianic believer's perspective...

enjoy!
http://www.heartofisrael.org/teachings/rabbi/29ParashahAchareiMot.pdf

Cuz God said "without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sin" Hebrews 9:22

this is from the same God who spoke the universe into existence, so I'll take His Word for it.

vt

Raj95,

It is implied in your philosophy. If no sacrifice is needed then what is left?

Just say the magic words, I accept Christ as my savior. Then go about your life doing what you want to do, why go to church or try to lead a Christian life, you are saved no matter what you do.

sacrifice in itself is defined as giving something up of value, in this case you give up your sins and commit to follow Christ's example. He then counts you one of his.

I think Bishop Spong has a rational take on the whole sacrifice issue. There will be many here that will automatically discount because it's Spong.

Spong -

The whole sacrifice mentality that permeates Christian theology needs to be raised to consciousness and expelled from Christianity. However, it is so deep that many feel that Christianity will die if it is ever separated from this idea.

Child sacrifice was part of ancient religion even in Judaism as the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac suggests. It was later replaced with animal sacrifice that was very much a part of worship in the Old Testament. The Passover observance was marked by the sacrifice of the paschal lamb. Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement was also marked by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, whose blood was thought to cleanse the people from their sins.

It was all but inevitable that the crucifixion of Jesus would be interpreted against the background of these two Jewish worship traditions. Paul calls Jesus our "new paschal lamb" and the images of Yom Kippur are present throughout the Gospels in such places as when Paul says: "he died for our sins"; when Mark calls his death a "ransom;" and when John the Baptist refers to Jesus as "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." Even the story of the cross in which we are told, "none of his (Jesus') bones were broken," was drawn from the liturgy of the Yom Kippur sacrifice.

Because that was how the 1st century Jews interpreted the death of Christ does not mean that we are bound by that thinking forever. Human attitudes toward child sacrifice are today violently negative. Attitudes toward animal sacrifice are expressed in such words as "cult worship," "black magic" and "devil liturgies." I wonder why these negative concepts are not allowed to flow toward the interpretation of Jesus' death as a sacrifice required by God to overcome the sins of the world. That idea makes God barbaric. It makes Jesus the victim of a sadistic deity. It introduces masochism into Christianity and it deeply violates the essential note of the Gospel, which is that God is love calling us to love.

Why can we not see the cross, not as a sacrifice, but as an ultimate expression of the humanity of one who was so whole he could give his life away and of one who wanted to demonstrate that even when you kill the love of God, the love of God still loves its killers? Why can we not get away from that message of guilt and control that is found in the pious but destructive phrase, "Jesus died for my sins"?

I believe that the future of Christianity rests on our ability in the Christian Church to escape the language of sacrifice and punishment and begin to think in terms of finding in Jesus the power to live fully, the grace to love wastefully and the courage to be all that we can be.

Why do I feel the need to take a shower after reading Spong.

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If salvation is granted by God's grace, why is sacrifice needed?

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God's Grace is the sacrafice of his son. It's one in the same.

We have all sinned and deserve death. However, because of God's Grace, he sent his son to accept that punishment for us.

Instead of us dying because of our sins, God showed Grace and spared us, sending his son to take our place.

Could you show enough grace to offer your son, to take someone else's place, and spare their lives? That is a rediculous amount of Grace.

That is Spong - Bob theology, at best....

Who is Bishop Spong?

A human!

A dirty human?

Yes! His theology needs cleaning up!

aggrad99 is exactly right.

It is an enormous amount of grace that God would send His Son as the sacrificial payment for all sin.
But God has always shown grace. Grace means unmerited favor.

-allowing Adam and Eve to live after their disobedience...
-sparing Noah and his family in the Ark...
-giving Moses the law so the Israelites would better understand how to live to please God...
-giving them a way of sacrifice to pay for sin...

these were all acts of grace by God. He did not have to do them. Man did not deserve any of these acts of grace. At any point in time He could have said He was fed up with man and tried something else. But because of His love for man He decided to do these things and solve the sin problem (sin separating man from fellowship with God) once and for all with the ultimate act of grace---God Himself paying the sin debt for man.

[This message has been edited by georgetownHorn (edited 5/4/2006 11:47p).]

Maybe sacrificing old traditions will make people embrace their religion more, there is so much in the Old Testament that seems primative and outright barbaric it is creepy.

If your christ died for the sins of humanity then why do you still go about saying we are a sinful people and only accepting him will grant you salvation. It seems an exclusive club that demands you accpe their way or else.

Sometimes I wonder if jesus were indeed alive today he would feel betrayed by those who claim to act on his behalf. I know he certainly would reject just about every major church created in his name

Spong is wrong.

The requirement of sacrifice for payment for sin is a clue to how serious God takes sin.

A sadistic deity did not kill Jesus. Neither man or Satan killed Jesus. It was His love for man that ultimately killed Him. At any point during His beatings or crucifixion He could have ended the ordeal. He had legions of angels at His command. In doing so He would have saved His own earthly existence, but man would still be separated from fellowship with God.

So, love is involved, but it is not love exclusive of sacrifice. John 3:16 does not say "for God so loved the world that He avoided sacrifice because He was concerned about bad PR".

[This message has been edited by georgetownHorn (edited 5/5/2006 12:06a).]

Losman-

You are hitting right at the Heart of Christianity.

We are all sinners. That is the reason Christ had to die. For all sins for all eternity. The ones I committed as a child, and the ones I'll committ in 10 years. Thank goodness he died for me, or else I'd be condemned.

The point is...I have to accept him as my Savior, or else he's just another dude.

It's a personal choice. You don't have to. However, if you don't, you forfeit the Grace in question.

God says here, here is a gift. Take it or leave it. Your choice. You absolutely can reject it and move on. But to walk into the gates of his heaven you need to accept his gift.

That's all.

I see where you're coming from, though. It seems as if sometimes it's presented in a very judgemental manner, and people do come off very judgemental. They shouldn't. Just know, that the message is clear from Christ. That he is "The way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

If you want Heaven, accept that his death, because of God's grace is the reason we get to go.

If not, you don't have to.

It is your choice.



edit: for clarification

[This message has been edited by aggrad99 (edited 5/5/2006 11:43a).]