An editorial on Mormons -Santa Clarita, Ca.

673 Views | 32 Replies | Last: 19 yr ago by ibmagg
ibmagg
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This article has seen wide spread distribution a while back. I urge you to contact the newspaper to validate its authenticity.

"I have and heard and seen enough! I have lived in the West all of my life. I have worked around them. They have worked for me and I for them. When I was young, I dated their daughters. When I got married they came to my wedding.

Now that I have daughters of my own, some of their boys have dated my daughters. I would be privileged if one of them were to be my son-in-law. I'm talking about the Mormons. They are probably some of the most honest, hardworking people I have ever known. They are spiritual, probably more than most other so-called religious people I have ever encountered. They study the Bible and teach from it as much as any Christian church ever has. They serve their religion without pay in every conceivable capacity. Not one of their leaders, teachers, counselors, Bishops or music directors receive one dime for the hours of labor they put in. The Mormons have a non-paid ministery -a fact that is not generally known. I have heard many times from the pulpits of others how evil and non-christian they are and that they will not go to heaven. I decided recently to attend one of their services near my home just to see for myself. What a surprise! What I heard and saw was just the opposite from what the religious ministers of the day were telling me. I found a very simple service with no fanfare. I found a people with a great sense of humor and a well-balanced spiritual side. There was NO loud music. Just a simple service, with the members themselves giving the several short sermons. They urge their youth to be morally clean and live a good life. They teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ as they understand it. The name of the church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. Does that sound like a non-Christian church to you? I asked them many questions about what they teach and why. I got answers that in most cases were from the New Testament. Their ideas and doctrines did not seem far fetched for my understanding. When I read their "Book of Mormon" I was very surprised to find the opposite from what I had been told I would find.

Then I went to another church's pastor to ask him some questions about doctrine. To my surprise, when he found out that I was in some way investigating the Mormons, he became hostile. He referred to them as a non-Christian cult. I received what sounded to me like evil propaganda against these people. He stated bluntly that they were not Christian and that they did not fit into the Christian mold. He also told me that they don't really believe the Bible. He gave me a pile of anti-Mormon literature. He began to rant that the Mormons were not telling me the truth about what they stand for. He didn't want to hear anything good about them. At first I was surprised and then again, I wasn't.

I began to wonder. I have never known of a cult that supports the Boy Scouts of America. According to the Boy Scouts, over a third of all the Boy Scout troops in the United States are Mormon. What cult do you know of that has a welfare system second to none in this country? They have farms, cattle ranches, and canneries to help take care of the unfortunate ones who might be down and out and in need of a little help.

The Mormon church has donated millions to welfare causes around the world without a word of credit. They have donated thousands to help rebuild Baptist churches that were burned a few years ago. They have donated tons of medical supplies to countries ravaged by earthquakes. You NEVER see them on TV begging for money. What cult do you know that instills in its members to obey the law, pay their taxes, serve in the military if asked and be a good Christian by living high moral standards?

Did you know that hundreds of thousands of Mormon youth get up before high school starts in the morning to attend a religious training class? They have basketball and softball leagues and supervised youth dances every month. They are recruited by the FBI, the State Dept. and every police department in the country because they are trustworthy. They are taught not to drink nor take drugs. They are in the Secret Service -those who protect the President.

They serve in leadership positions from both parties in Congress and in the US Senate, and have been governors of several states other than Utah. They serve with distinction and honor. If you have Mormons living near, you will probably find them to be your best friends and neighbors. They are Christians who try to live what they preach. They are not perfect and they are the first to admit this. I have know some of them who could not live their religion, just like many of us.

The rhetoric which is spread against them is nothing more than evil propaganda founded in untruths. (Others) had successfully demonized them to the point that the general public has no idea what they actually believe and teach. If you want to know the truth, go see for yourself. You also will be surprised.

When I fist moved here 25 years ago there were five Mormon Wards in Santa Clarita. Now there are 15. They must be doing something right.

IBMAGG
Aggie_Fanatic
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It is very interesting how you like to point our how fast the LDS religion is growing, or how big it is, or how big the LDS churches financial pockets are. Now you are having to get validation by posting editorials? If you really have a strong faith in your religion why the need to show how "great" it is on a continual basis?
Aggie_Fanatic
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Please do not misunderstand my initial post. I am not attacking the LDS faith. I just find it odd how you and other members seem to have a need to get validation from others on the LDS faith.
ibmagg
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I simply thought that it was interesting that someone not of our faith actually made the effort to find out on his own about the Church. His name was Paul Allen. Some thought that he was the same Paul Allen that owns the Seattle Seahawks but he is not -just a resident of the community.

I am trying to stimulate as many of you as possible to go find out for yourselves about the Church and just not accept all the "evil propaganda" about the Church that is put out. I am sorry if you misinterpreted my intentions.
nicks17
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Everything you need to know about mormonism you can learn from Southpark.
Guitarsoup
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You should see how fast and rich the Scientologists are growing in California. That must mean they are true!
b.blauser
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Like I've said before, some of the greatest people I've met have been Mormons. No different from anyone else, if not better.

Seems the guy in the original post was evaluating their character, and ignoring their theological differences with traditional Orthodox Christianity. That's my only problem with them, albeit a big one.

www.WheelchairsForIraqiKids.com

http://www.thebatt.com/media/storage/paper657/news/2006/03/28/News/Troops.Deliver.Wheelchairs.To.Iraqi.Children-1750910.shtml?norewrite200604091439&sourcedomain=www.thebatt.com

www.StudyBiblesForSoldiers.com
ibmagg
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B.Blauser -Good observation. He was truly drawn to the "fruits" of their theology -the "evil" tree bringing forth the "good fruit" conflict. The article was written 5 years ago so it would be interesting to know his circumstances now. Appreciate the kind comments.
ibmagg
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Has anyone checked the authenticity of this editorial?
ibmagg
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I thought that moe of you would have posted the accuracy of this editorial and verified it and had some more comments. I guess being true was a non-starter.
OldArmyAggie94
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Being good, nice, charitable does not get a person to heaven. Turing from your sinful ways and asking Jesus into your heart as your Savior is the way to heaven....not working your way. There are going to be a lot of nice people in hell.
ibmagg
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There will be NO nice, charitable people in hell. They may not be in the celestial kingdom, but not in hell! Your beliefs are reflected in your life and actions. There are many who cry Lord, Lord but it is all lip service. As the Lord told Joseph, "they draw near to me with their mouths, but their hearts are far from me." Asking Jesus into your heart is only the start of the process. You have to learn the will of the Lord and DO IT!
Hank Hill
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OldArmyAg94 wrote:
quote:
Being good, nice, charitable does not get a person to heaven. Turing from your sinful ways and asking Jesus into your heart as your Savior is the way to heaven....not working your way. There are going to be a lot of nice people in hell


In the above statement the word only means there is no other way to get to heaven?

I guess this means that according to OldArmyAg94 babies that die will all go to hell with the other good people.

Can you disprove this statement scripturally.
Or are you going to back track and say that there is exceptions to the "only" rule you just stated.

What about those who died without hearing the word of God, will they also go to hell?

According to bible scriptures, the God of Israel is both a Just God and a Merciful God. How can he be both and send people to hell who have never had the chance to hear the word of God.

Did he create people just to torture them?

I think your religious beliefs are not in accordance with the true nature of God.
ibmagg
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Hank -don't you understand? We are all part of a giant ant farm down here that God has created to amuse himself and build up his self esteem. He does this by having those that he doesn't zap, gaze adoringly into his face for the eternities, singing songs of praise. (after a few million years it may sound like skreetching hymns of praise). What an exciting future they envision -but it does beat a lake of fire.
OldArmyAggie94
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Hank I will try-

Christ is the way….I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."- John 14:6

That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the , you will be saved." Romans 10:9

Babies- There is a scripture reference to David and the of his child. "But now that he is , why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

People that never heard the Gospel? Only God knows our hearts, and only He has the right to judge who will be saved and who will be lost. The Bible says that "he will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in his truth" (Psalm 96:13).

We have a loving, merciful God - I know that. “We all have sinned a fall short of the glory of the Lord”--think of the nice friends that you have that would do anything for you but have not accepted Christ as their savior? Where are they going?


[This message has been edited by OldArmyAggie94 (edited 4/25/2006 10:55p).]
Hank Hill
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OldArmyAggie94 Wrote:
quote:
Hank I will try-

Christ is the way….I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."- John 14:6

That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the , you will be saved." Romans 10:9

Babies- There is a scripture reference to David and the of his child. "But now that he is , why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

People that never heard the Gospel? Only God knows our hearts, and only He has the right to judge who will be saved and who will be lost. The Bible says that "he will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in his truth" (Psalm 96:13).

We have a loving, merciful God - I know that. “We all have sinned a fall short of the glory of the Lord”--think of the nice friends that you have that would do anything for you but have not accepted Christ as their savior? Where are they going?



I see a major paradox in your philosophy on the one hand you quote scripture that is pretty cut and dry as pertaining to how one is saved. Then you make exceptions.

Frankly I agree with everything you said, but I do so with the aid of modern revelation to clearify these things. I posed those questions to see if you were of the thinking that God created some men to be save and other to be damed.

So now I ask if Christ is our judge and he will judge us by our hearts then what is wrong with my religious beliefs? People in my religion are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, (we accept him as our savior) we are taught to follow his teachings, we are taught to follow his example. Yet we are likely going to hell while those who never heard the word would be saved?

According to the scriptures there are 4 types of people
1. Those who have never heard the word
2. Those who have heard the word but refuse to follow it.
3. Those who heard the word and need nothing more.
4. Those who both hear the word and are doers of the word.

So now I ask again where does your religion classify these people on the salvation scale. I classify the LDS church as #4. According to what you have said I would classify your religion as #3.

What are your thoughts?
orag80
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I have studied with Mormons many times. I have researched what they teach from their own publications. I put a sermon together on this a couple of years ago. Did you know that they teach that God was once a man? And that Mormon men will become Gods of their own planet? Did you know that they taught that if you don't believe Joseph Smith is a prophet of God that you will burn in hell? That the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, itself and their other books (Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants)?

Before rushing to welcome them as "Christian brothers" you should really get familiar with what they teach. Do I say this because I hate Mormons for some reason. No, I love their souls and want them to come to a knowledge of the truth, instead of spreading "another Gospel" (see Gal 1:8). Like anyone else, their souls are worth more than the whole world, and are well worth the effort to teach.

Acts 2:38...this means you!

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 4/30/2006 10:53p).]
ibmagg
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Ora80 -Although I am shocked to have this information brought to my attention, I regret to inform YOU that you are in partial error and FULL error!!

Before God was ever a "man" he was a spirit son of his Father in heaven. His period of time to experience mortality was less than a blink of the eye. So you have to go way before his mortal birth to define who He was. Our Father in heaven has declared that "worlds without end" He has created. If we become joint-heirs with Jesus Christ and inherit all that the Father has(as the scriptures declare), then "planet" doesn't begin to describe it. Since we believe and teach that all of our Father's children (except the sons of perdition) will inherit one of the three heavens (after those who inherit the lesser two kingdoms pay the uttermost farthing for their sins), where could you ever get this "burning in hell" for those who don't accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and I assume you also mean eternally? Although we KNOW the Bible CONTRADICTS ITSELF, Pls. let us know where you think the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible and where our scriptures contradict each other. Thanks!

Hank Hill
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Orag80 wrote:
quote:
I have studied with Mormons many times. I have researched what they teach from their own publications. I put a sermon together on this a couple of years ago. Did you know that they teach that God was once a man? And that Mormon men will become Gods of their own planet? Did you know that they taught that if you don't believe Joseph Smith is a prophet of God that you will burn in hell? That the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, itself and their other books (Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants)?

Before rushing to welcome them as "Christian brothers" you should really get familiar with what they teach. Do I say this because I hate Mormons for some reason. No, I love their souls and want them to come to a knowledge of the truth, instead of spreading "another Gospel" (see Gal 1:8). Like anyone else, their souls are worth more than the whole world, and are well worth the effort to teach.

If you would like a copy, then shoot me your e-mail address.

bob.rogerson@intel.com

Acts 2:38...this means you!


1. Yes we believe that God was once a man, and last I checked so do you since you think God and Christ are the same being.

2. Yes we think we are literal sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father with the potential to grow up to be like him.

3. No we don't teach that belief in Joseph Smith will lead to salvation or non-belief will lead to Hell.

4. I have read the Book of Mormon over 20 times and the New Testament over 10 and still I have yet to find a contradiction. I have found plenty of places were other religions have misinterpreted the scriptures.

5. Thank you for the love, but I am very confident that my religion has the capacity to generate enough faith in me to lead me to Heaven.
orag80
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Ibmagg wrote - "Before God was ever a "man" he was a spirit son of his Father in heaven. His period of time to experience mortality was less than a blink of the eye. So you have to go way before his mortal birth to define who He was. Our Father in heaven has declared that "worlds without end" He has created. If we become joint-heirs with Jesus Christ and inherit all that the Father has(as the scriptures declare), then "planet" doesn't begin to describe it. Since we believe and teach that all of our Father's children (except the sons of perdition) will inherit one of the three heavens (after those who inherit the lesser two kingdoms pay the uttermost farthing for their sins), where could you ever get this "burning in hell" for those who don't accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and I assume you also mean eternally? Although we KNOW the Bible CONTRADICTS ITSELF, Pls. let us know where you think the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible and where our scriptures contradict each other. Thanks!"

Response - Very interesting theory. Show me where the Bible teaches this, and I will believe it. The same Bible that says it contains *all* things that pertain to life and godliness, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be *thoroughly furnish* unto *every* good work (II Peter 1:3, II Tim 3:16-17). This leaves no room for the BOM or any other such book.

The rest of what I found in my study and research of Mormonism can be found in the other active thread on this same board called "Info I sent to a Mormon friend that every Mormon should know". I can send it to anyone who wants it via e-mail as a Word doc. Just ask.

Any religion that attacks the Bible is *not* a legitimate religion. I repeat, any religion that promotes or furthers its purposes with the claim that the Bible is corrupted or contradictory is *not* a legitimate religion.

Show me where the Bible contradicts itself, and I will defend it. I have had many presented, and none hold water. See the other thread referenced regarding where the BOM contradicts the Bible, itself, and other Mormon books.

Hank Hill - you wrote "Yes we believe that God was once a man", and "last I checked so do you since you think God and Christ are the same being".

Response - sir, thank you for your honesty regarding your belief that God was once a man. However, *that* is pure *blasphemy*, as is the claim that *you* (Mormon men) can / will some day be a God. There is no other way to describe it.
Regarding the second half of what you wrote. The Godhead is made up of three distinct beings / spirits / personalities: God the Father, the Word (Christ, God the Son), and the Holy Spirit. They are united, but three distinct personalities with different roles.

Re: the Joseph Smith reference, read the other thread for the historical quote I included on this matter.

We agree in that there are no contradictions in the Bible, contrary to what ibmagg - apparently one of your fellow Mormons - believes. However, again, see the other thread referenced regarding where the BOM contradicts the Bible, itself, and other Mormon books.

Acts 2:38...this means you!

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 4/30/2006 6:55p).]

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 4/30/2006 10:54p).]
Hank Hill
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Ibmagg wrote -
quote:
"Before God was ever a "man" he was a spirit son of his Father in heaven. His period of time to experience mortality was less than a blink of the eye. So you have to go way before his mortal birth to define who He was. Our Father in heaven has declared that "worlds without end" He has created. If we become joint-heirs with Jesus Christ and inherit all that the Father has(as the scriptures declare), then "planet" doesn't begin to describe it. Since we believe and teach that all of our Father's children (except the sons of perdition) will inherit one of the three heavens (after those who inherit the lesser two kingdoms pay the uttermost farthing for their sins), where could you ever get this "burning in hell" for those who don't accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and I assume you also mean eternally? Although we KNOW the Bible CONTRADICTS ITSELF, Pls. let us know where you think the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible and where our scriptures contradict each other. Thanks!"


Orag80 responded –
quote:
Response - Very interesting theory. Show me where the Bible teaches this, and I will believe it. The same Bible that says it contains *all* things that pertain to life and godliness, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be *thoroughly furnish* unto *every* good work (II Peter 1:3, II Tim 3:16-17). This leaves no room for the BOM or any other such book.


Show me where in the bible it refutes this. If you go by just what the bible says then you have little to no idea about the nature of God. Nicene Creed tried to spell out the nature of God but it is of no more prophetic origin than my Sports Illustrated 2005 College football preview issue.

The LDS church stands on the doctrine that we are lead by a Prophet of God who receivers Revelations, and sometimes he reveals things that have not ever been revealed before. Or in this case revealed and likely lost.

Orag80 said –
quote:
The rest of what I found in my study and research of Mormonism can be found in the other active thread on this same board called "Info I sent to a Mormon friend that every Mormon should know". I can send it to anyone who wants it via e-mail as a Word doc. Just ask.


No offense but your other thread was filled with so many falsehoods, lies, and downright silly things I didn’t even feel compelled to answer them, other than to dismiss them.

Orag80 said –
quote:
Any religion that attacks the Bible is *not* a legitimate religion. I repeat, any religion that promotes or furthers its purposes with the claim that the Bible is corrupted or contradictory is *not* a legitimate religion.


Anyone who thinks the bible is perfect has neither studied it beyond what his preacher has told him or refuses to acknowledge the truth. The Bible not only contradicts it self but it even admits in its own writings that it is incomplete. The Bible refers to books that are no longer in existence; it quotes prophets that have no writings in the Bible.

Orag80 said –
quote:
Show me where the Bible contradicts itself, and I will defend it. I have had many presented, and none hold water. See the other thread referenced regarding where the BOM contradicts the Bible, itself, and other Mormon books.


As you wish

Acts 9:7
quote:
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

compare to:

Acts 22:9
quote:
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.


So which was it, did they or didn’t they hear a voice. Is this important; yes, because Paul’s entire testimony and witness hinges on this experience? How can we believe Paul’s experience if the same book contradicts itself?

quote:
Hank Hill - you wrote "Yes we believe that God was once a man", and "last I checked so do you since you think God and Christ are the same being".


Orag80 Response –
quote:
sir, thank you for your honesty regarding your belief that God was once a man. However, *that* is pure *blasphemy*, as is the claim that *you* (Mormon men) can / will some day be a God. There is no other way to describe it.
Regarding the second half of what you wrote. The Godhead is made up of three distinct beings / spirits / personalities: God the Father, the Word (Christ, God the Son), and the Holy Spirit. They are united, but three distinct personalities with different roles.

Re: the Joseph Smith reference, read the other thread for the historical quote I included on this matter.


Funny you call this belief blasphemy; the Jews said the same thing to Christ when he basically told them he was the Great I AM.

Yet you accept this as the truth.

Well if this belief is blasphemy, then I guess we are in good company because Paul apparently taught the same doctrine.

Rom 8: 19-18
quote:
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


Now if we are to be heirs of God then that means we gain all that he has.
Now if we are to be joint-heirs with Christ who you believe to be the same as God the Father then how can we not be Gods?
Paul even says that, “…that we may be glorified together”.

Is Paul lying, will we not be joint-heirs with Christ?

Orag80 said –
quote:
We agree in that there are no contradictions in the Bible, contrary to what ibmagg - apparently one of your fellow Mormons - believes. However, again, see the other thread referenced regarding where the BOM contradicts the Bible, itself, and other Mormon books


No, we don’t agree, I already pointed out one contradiction there are more, there are several errors as well. Your idea of the bible being perfect only proves that you have never really studied the bible outside of what your preacher has told you. The bible didn’t even exist till 400AD, Over 200 years after the last Apostle’s death. And when Christianity became the state religion of Rome was there an Apostle or Prophet that came forward to compile the Bible? No, a group of men lead by Constantine decided what was scripture and what wasn’t. This is not God’s way, (see Amos 3:7).


[This message has been edited by Hank Hill (edited 5/1/2006 4:03a).]
orag80
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Trying to copy and paste just the last remark made on a given point so we don't set a world record here for length…

Hank Hill wrote - "Show me where in the bible it refutes this. If you go by just what the bible says then you have little to no idea about the nature of God. Nicene Creed tried to spell out the nature of God but it is of no more prophetic origin than my Sports Illustrated 2005 College football preview issue."

Response - no, the answer is "show me where the Bible teaches this". Prove what is there, not what isn't there. From the passages already cited in one or both of these related threads - the Bible contains " *all* things that pertain unto life and godliness; that the man of God may be adequate, thoroughly equipped unto *every* good work. This rules out any man-made later "revelations". John 20:30 says "Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these things *are* written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name".
Points to note - *everything* we need for life and godliness, to be *thoroughly* equipped unto *every* good work, to believe, and have *life in His name* are in the Bible. Anything outside of that, whether it actually happened ("things not written in this book" ) or not (things written in the BOM), is *not* needed. This where the Bible refutes Mormonism, along with other places such as Galatians 1:8.

We understand from the Bible everything we need to know about the nature of God, from Genesis 1 through the end of Revelation. We are *thoroughly* equipped unto *every* good work. I have no use for a "Nicene Creed" or any other creed anymore than I do the BOM.

Hank Hill wrote - "No offense but your other thread was filled with so many falsehoods, lies, and downright silly things I didn’t even feel compelled to answer them, other than to dismiss them."

Response - yes, you and ibmagg have said this over and over again, but *without* disproving the fact that much of it comes from the very books you hold so dear. You say my info exposing Mormonism for what it really is "is filled with so many lies that I don't know where to start", but the fact is, you don't start.

Hank Hill wrote - "Anyone who thinks the bible is perfect has neither studied it beyond what his preacher has told him or refuses to acknowledge the truth. The Bible not only contradicts it self but it even admits in its own writings that it is incomplete. The Bible refers to books that are no longer in existence; it quotes prophets that have no writings in the Bible."

Response - You have confirmed my point: Any religion that attacks the Bible is *not* a legitimate religion. I repeat, any religion that promotes or furthers its purposes with the claim that the Bible is corrupted or contradictory is *not* a legitimate religion. Mormonism thrives by getting people to distrust the Bible, believe it is incomplete, contradictory, or corrupted. Time after time I have studied with Mormons and the same thing happens. At first they eagerly *insist* that they believe the Bible *is* the trustworthy Word of God, but only *as long as it suits them*. They turn on it like a pit bull when it exposes the false doctrine that Mormonism is.
Regarding the Bible "admitting it is incomplete", see my previous point. Yes it confirms other events happened, *but* that it contains all things *needed* to believe and have (eternal) life. This rules out Mormonism and its books.

You cited an alleged "contradiction" in the Bible. Even if it *is* a contradiction, it should not be used as a *device* to attack the credibility of the Bible to suit your own purposes. Regardless, it is *not* a contradiction. I'm not sure what version you are reading from, but my translation (New American Std) says those in Acts 22:9 did not "understand" the voice. They *heard* it just like in Acts 9:7, but includes the further detail that they did not "understand" it. There are three accounts of this event in the book of Acts, same event, some with more detail than others, but *no* contradictions.

Hank Hill wrote - "So which was it, did they or didn’t they hear a voice. Is this important; yes, because Paul’s entire testimony and witness hinges on this experience? How can we believe Paul’s experience if the same book contradicts itself?"

Response - your accusation against the Bible has already been answered. Your attempt to discredit the Word of God to further you agenda has failed. Now can you explain the multiple versions of Joseph Smith's alleged visions found in my text on the other thread and in the links I provided?

------------------------------------------------
Hank Hill wrote - "Yes we believe that God was once a man", and "last I checked so do you since you think God and Christ are the same being".

I (orag80) responded "sir, thank you for your honesty regarding your belief that God was once a man. However, *that* is pure *blasphemy*, as is the claim that *you* (Mormon men) can / will some day be a God. There is no other way to describe it.
Regarding the second half of what you wrote. The Godhead is made up of three distinct beings / spirits / personalities: God the Father, the Word (Christ, God the Son, who took on a human form while on this earth), and the Holy Spirit. They are united, but three distinct personalities with different roles.
Regarding: the Joseph Smith reference, read the other thread for the historical quote I included on this matter."

Hank Hill wrote - "Funny you call this belief blasphemy; the Jews said the same thing to Christ when he basically told them he was the Great I AM. Yet you accept this as the truth."

Response - yes, and the Jews were wrong. They denied the very truth Jesus just told them…that He is deity, that He was there in the beginning, before Abraham. They considered it blasphemy. What is your point? Believing *you* will be "God" or "a God" someday of your own planet or universe is the ultimate arrogance. There is only one God. He has three distinct parts or personalities: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Believing God (our God, the one true God) was once a man is equally blasphemous. You believe there are (or will be) many Gods, and that you will be one yourself. This is as far from the truth as the east is from the west.

You would have us believe that God was once a man. Who created this former man? With all these Gods floating around, who was the first? Who created Him? Was this "creator" once a man too? Where did it start? Maybe there was a "real" God somewhere "in the beginning". Gen 1:1.
--------------------------------------------

Regarding your citation of Romans 8:16-19, it simply teaching that Christians are children of God, He is our Father in Heaven, we are His. That we have his blessings, most especially the blessing of a home in heaven if we remain faithful, which is where victory is and glory. That though we may have to suffer things in this earthly life, that it will all be worth it compared to heaven. We will be joint-heirs of the blessings made possible by what Christ did for us. To take this passage and assume it means that you will be a God someday requires a vivid imagination. It never says we will be "God" or "a God" someday. Its says we are heirs to glory, being blessed, saved, and in Heaven with God and Jesus. Isn't this glorious enough for you? Or do *you* have to be a "God" too, as if that were possible.

Hank Hill wrote - "No, we don’t agree, I already pointed out one contradiction there are more, there are several errors as well. Your idea of the bible being perfect only proves that you have never really studied the bible outside of what your preacher has told you. The bible didn’t even exist till 400AD, Over 200 years after the last Apostle’s death. And when Christianity became the state religion of Rome was there an Apostle or Prophet that came forward to compile the Bible? No, a group of men lead by Constantine decided what was scripture and what wasn’t. This is not God’s way, (see Amos 3:7)."

Response - You assume much about what I have and have not done regarding study or what any preacher has told me. The Bible, the books, letters that make it up were "scripture" from the very time they were written, not 400 years later. There are a number of times where one NT book quotes or refers to another as "scripture". 2 Tim 3:16-17 identifies it as "scripture". Paul said that what he writes is "the Lord's commandment"…that is scripture (I Cor 14:37). If you want to talk about errors, consider the 100's of errors that have been edited out of the BOM in its relatively brief history, comparing early versions to today's. The same God who had the power to guide the Apostles in writing the truth, the NT, did not have to cower in some corner "hoping" His Bible would be written, preserved, and compiled correctly. My God is powerful, we have His true and only Bible, and His word abides and endures forever. To deny otherwise is to deny His power.


Acts 2:38...this means you!

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 5/1/2006 8:27p).]

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 5/1/2006 8:31p).]
ibmagg
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I have not got much time but I have to respond to the last part of your post concerning scritur. The Apostles and the Seventy didn't run around with Bibles when they had been written or assembled.

These are some of the Books of the Bible named but are not found in the Bible: I point these out because those who oppose belief in continual revelation betweeen God and man, on the ground that the Bible is a complete collection of sacred Scriptures and that alleged "revelation" not found therein must therefore be SPURIOUS , may profitably learn and take note of these scriptures.

Exo. 24:4 "And Moses wrote ALL the words of the Lords,and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel..and he took the"book of the covenant", and read in in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." Spent much time reading the "Book of the Covenant"?

Num. 21:14 "Wherefore it is said in the "book of the wars of the Lord", what he did in the Red Sea, and in the brooks or Arnon". Was this a good read?

Josh 10:13 "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the "book of Jasher? So the Sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."
2 Sam. 1:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Juday the use of the bow: behold it is written in the "book of Jasher." Mentioned TWICE!

1 Sam. 10:25 "Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom and "wrote it in a book", and laid it up before the Lord. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house." Seems like important stuff to me.

2. Chron. 12:15 "Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the "book of Shemaiah" the prophet, and of Iddo, the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehobaom and Jeroboam continually."

1 Kings 11:41 "And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did , and his wisdom, are they not written in the 'book of the acts of Solomon?'"

1 Chron.29:29 "Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, AND in the 'book of Nathan' the prophet, and in the 'book of Gad' the seer."

Read 2 Cron. 9:29; 2 Chron. 20:24; 2 Chron. 26:22; 2 Chron 33:19 for other missing scripture in the Old Testament alone.

MISSING EPISTLES OF PAUL:

1 Cor. 5:9 "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators."

Eph.3:3 "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)."

Col. 4: 16 "An when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the 'epistle from Laodicea'."

THE MISSING EPISTLE OF JUDE:
Jude3. "Beloved, when I give all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

PROPHECIES OF ENOCH:

Jude 14. "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints"

Note: Matthew's mention of Nazareth as the abode of Jesus: 'that it might be fulfilled which was spken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene'".(2:23), when considered with the fact that NO such saying of the prophets is FOUND in the Old Testament books, is further EVIDENCE of lost scripture.

I hope this has been enlightening as to why revelation is still so important!



orag80
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Ibmagg wrote - "The Apostles and the Seventy didn't run around with Bibles when they had been written or assembled".

Response - Again, my God is powerful enough to use whatever means necessary (miracles, providence, men - willing or unwilling, etc.) to accomplish His purposes. If He is powerful enough to speak the universe into existence (Genesis), then He can have His Word accurately written and preserved with His proverbial hand tied behind His back. Your "God" was not powerful enough? Where is the faith here?

Ibmagg wrote - "These are some of the Books of the Bible named but are not found in the Bible: I point these out because those who oppose belief in continual revelation betweeen God and man, on the ground that the Bible is a complete collection of sacred Scriptures and that alleged "revelation" not found therein must therefore be SPURIOUS , may profitably learn and take note of these scriptures." < you then listed a bunch of passages >

Response - no offense, but so what? I already showed you that the Bible - the Bible that you and I have - asserts that it contains *all* things that pertain unto life & godliness, that the man of God may be adequate, equipped unto *every* good work, and that though other events occurred, what *was* written gives us *everything* we need to have (eternal) life in His name, and that the Apostles would be guided into *all* truth. 2 Peter 1:3, 2 Tim 3:16-17, John 20:30, John 16:13, etc. It does not claim to have *everything* in there, but it does claim to have *everything we need for eternal life*. This rules out the need for the BOM and other so-called later revelations.

You on the other hand want unsuspecting souls to believe otherwise, that something vital is missing, and that they need something *additional*.

I asked this before, and I don't remember getting answer: can a person pick up the Bible and the *Bible only*, read it, comply with it, follow it, and be saved? The verses above and others like it say "Yes". What do *you* say?

I agree, revelation *is* important. It is important to us and to God. That's why He gave it to us and preserved it, *the* faith *once* delivered for *all* (Jude 1:3). You claim that the Bible, important revelation, was lost or corrupted.

I implore you to reject your man-made doctrine and return to the true Gospel, and to trust in it. Orson Pratt, one of your Mormon heroes said "This book (the BOM) must either be true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man…If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the word of God”."

I agree.



Acts 2:38...this means you!
ibmagg
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So do I! I broke that code when I was investigating the Church which is why I was so relentless in my study! Yours is the man made Church as Campbell declared; they called you guys "campbellites, not Christians. Our name was The Church of jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. Joseph NEVER claimed it was his Church. That is why "smithites" never caught on.

I feel sorry for you as to your ignorance of the early history of the Church. You turn aa blind eye to the evidence given to you that the canon of scripture is NOT complete. You prefer to follow man made fables. Campbell , when he was taking pay as a Baptist minister, but preaching heretical doctrines, split away from one of his own co-founders. To bad Christ couldn't or wouldn't answer their prayers as to which one was correct. Or did they dare pray about it expecting an snswer By the way, has it been disclosed as to why the Church of Christ's minister's wife killed him in Tennesee?
RAB91
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quote:
Joseph NEVER claimed it was his Church.
Not in those exact words.....

quote:
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

- Joseph Smith: founder, prophet, seer, and revelator of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


[This message has been edited by RAB91 (edited 5/2/2006 6:12p).]
orag80
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ibmagg - What a surprise...attacks on the Bible as being the enduring and complete Word of God have failed, the truth has exposed you, so now starts the personal attack on the messenger trying to help you.

I Peter 1:23 says "you have been born again not of seed that is perishable but imperishable, that is, through *the* living and enduring word of God".

You on the other hand, believe the imperishable and enduring word of God has perished (been corrupted) and has not endured. Furthermore, you claim that *the* seed - the living and enduring word of God - needs *another* seed..."another testament of Jesus Christ". No offense, but the choice of who to believe is quite clear.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I esteem any man's teachings, or that your attacks on Campbell or calling me names hurts me in the least. I hate to burst your bubble, but they don’t. But if it makes you feel better then be my guest. I don't care about all that. Really.

If any person or group of people pick up, read, and trust in the imperishable seed, the enduring word of God, and follow it, then they will be NT Christians. Pure and simple. It has *nothing* to do with aligning to what *anyone* teaches. Maybe Campbell or whoever did (or did not) get it right. I don't know, and I don't care. It is all about learning, believing, and doing what the NT teaches. This is what true Christianity is all about.


Acts 2:38...this means you!

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 5/2/2006 6:16p).]
ibmagg
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There have been no "attacks" on the Bible. We have always declared that we believe the Bible "as far as it is translated correctly". If that is an attack so be it but that make a pimple compared to so many "experts" do in Books and TV. If "personal attacks" consists of questions directed to you and your lack of consistency in "your" interpretations of the scriptures, I am sorry but that is the way it is. You refuse to explin when Christ died the second time for this is a box that you can't wiggle out of. You have no problem consistently assaulting the character of Joseph but when i show you the inconsistencies of your own founders, then you squeal. Very unbecoming. It seems that you like to dish it out whenm you think you are on theoffense, but you don't defend worth a darn. I know you mean well, but you are blinded by the cunning and craftiness of men that keeps you from a "real' attempt to discover the truth. If you would attend any of our meetings you would know that the individual who presides over the ward is not called a pastor but a Bishop. When you read the scripturs that I gave you describing all the Books of the Bible that are not there, how can you so easily dismiss them; why would God even permit them to be mentioned, one book, twice, if they were not important? Ignorance may be bliss but it won't get you where you want to go!
orag80
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Ibmagg wrote - "There have been no "attacks" on the Bible. We have always declared that we believe the Bible "as far as it is translated correctly"."

Response - ummm, you repeatedly claim (including in these very 2 e-mail threads) that the Bible has been corrupted, has contradictions, and has lost some "plain and precious truths" (none of which you can prove). I'm sorry, but in my mind that constitutes an "attack". The last part of your sentence is your license to embrace the Bible when it suits you, and attack it when it convicts you.
And I suppose *you* (Mormons) can identify exactly when it was and when it wasn't. Very convenient.
Besides, an issue of "translation" is *not* the same thing as the Bible being "corrupted", "contradictory", or "lost". It is *one* thing to talk about translation, and a far different thing to attack the Bible as "corrupt", "contradictory", or "incomplete". I never failed to study with Mormons where they INSIST that they fully embrace the Bible, as long as it suits them, and then turn on it when it exposes them. You talk out both sides of your mouth. Either embrace the Word of God, the Bible, fully, or don't. At least be consistent and honest about it.

Any such "attack" on the Bible as corrupted, missing parts, etc. can equally apply to the BOM. Your point is that God could *not* protect the Bible, but He *can* protect the BOM from corruption? Can He protect His truth, or can't He? You would have us believe He fell down on the job regarding the Bible, but He got His act together for the BOM.

Again, any religion that promotes its cause be attacking the Bible is *not* a legitimate religion. Attack how man has not accurately taught the Bible all you want. How their free will led them to apostacy. But don't cast doubt on the enduring imperishible Word of God. You will have to answer for that some day when God asks why you didn't trust His Word.

Ibmagg wrote - "If that is an attack so be it but that make a pimple compared to so many "experts" do in Books and TV."

Response - so your point is that because other people attack and misrepresent the Bible worse than Mormons (which is debatable), that you are somehow OK or justified? You obviously have a lot of anger and mistrust towards those who abuse the Bible, misrepresent it, lead people to error, etc. And well you should. But do you realize that you are right there with them? Maybe you aren't doing it for the reason that some do, for filthy lucre, but you are still doing it!

The problem is not the Bible. It is the men that depart from it, and people not reading it, understanding it, and obeying it for themselves. The answer is *not* another book!

Ibmagg wrote - "If "personal attacks" consists of questions directed to you and your lack of consistency in "your" interpretations of the scriptures, I am sorry but that is the way it is. You refuse to explin when Christ died the second time for this is a box that you can't wiggle out of. You have no problem consistently assaulting the character of Joseph but when i show you the inconsistencies of your own founders, then you squeal."

Response -
1) I'm talking about calling me names, which you do assuming they hurt me.
2) I explain this fully on the other thread. In short, it is *your* doctrine that would require Christ to die a second time, for another will / testament ("The BOM - Another Testament of Jesus Christ" ) to go into effect.
3) The historical record and quotations from your very own Mormon books speak to Joseph Smith's character all by themselves. He convicts himself.
4) I "squeal" when you bring up certain men in the restoration movement? My point is I don't care what you say about them! Jesus Christ founded the NT Church that you read about in the Bible, not any man. *That* is the Church I belong to

Ibmagg wrote - "If you would attend any of our meetings you would know that the individual who presides over the ward is not called a pastor but a Bishop."

Response - a "pastor", "bishop", "elder", and "overseer" all refer to the same office in the church. These terms are used interchangeably in the NT (See I Tim 3 and Titus 1, and I Peter 5:2). These men are to have specific qualifications that your 18-20 year old missionary "Elders" fall woefully short on (must be husband of one wife, with believing children, overseeing the flock among them, etc.). Do a search on "Elders" on our website for more info. And where does the Bible talk about wards? Presidents of the church? Etc.

Ibmagg wrote - When you read the scripturs that I gave you describing all the Books of the Bible that are not there, how can you so easily dismiss them; why would God even permit them to be mentioned, one book, twice, if they were not important?

Response - Because of John 20:30-31, that's how. It speaks directly to that point (other things did happen, but what *is* written is *all* we need) I have made a good faith effort to answer all of your questions. If I have missed one then feel free to point it out.

Acts 2:38...this means you!

[This message has been edited by orag80 (edited 5/3/2006 1:49p).]
ibmagg
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OrAg -Please tell me the "names" that I have called you. I just want you to explain when Jesus died a second time since you claim he had no physical body when he ascended into heaven.

I think they had you in mind when the phrase was coined "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up". You know the canon of scripture is NOT complete. I don't see how the scripture you refer to in John should give YOU any security at all.

orag80
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Ibmagg - you called me a "Campbellite", not that I care. Are you going to tell me you meant it as a compliment or to build me up? Or that you wanted to call me what you consider an unflattering and hurtful name? While it caused no hurt, the intention was clearly there.

You also said "I just want you to explain when Jesus died a second time since you claim he had no physical body when he ascended into heaven.".

Response - *Please* carefully re-read what I originally said about Jesus dying a second time, and re-said about this both of these threads at least three times now…
My point was that IF the BOM is truly "another Testament of Jesus Christ", then Jesus would have had to die again for that Testament to be in place. That *your* doctrine (not mine) requires Christ to die a second time. A new will / testament requires the death of the person (the testador).

Only one will / testament can be in force for a person at a time, and this covenant becomes in force when they die. Christ's will, testament, gospel, covenant, message is the New Testament. You cannot have "another one" along with "the one". Only one can be in force. This was also true regarding the NT replacing the OT (Heb 9:15-17). It is true for the BOM. If it is truly "another Testament", then the New Testament would no longer be in force, and Christ would have had to die *again* for this new "testament" to take effect.

Again, it is *your* false Mormon doctrine that would demand Jesus die a second time in order for "another Testament" (your BOM) to be in force. You recognize that Jesus having to die a second time is absurd. Now do you recognize that it is *your* religion that demands it? This is another example of the absurdity of it.

Ibmagg said - "You know the canon of scripture is NOT complete. I don't see how the scripture you refer to in John should give YOU any security at all."

Response - It gives me all the security I could ever want. John 20:30-31 clearly states that other events *did* happen. It freely admits that. I freely admit that. BUT, that what IS written is so that we would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and believing might have (eternal) life in His name.

Putting it another way (as if it isn't crystal clear already)...
Does the Bible record EVERYTHING that happened? - No (John 20:30)
Did it nevertheless record ALL things necessary to believe and have eternal life? - Yes (John 20:31)
Does it contain ALL things that pertain to life and godliness? - Yes (2 Peter 1:3)
That the man of God may be adequate, thoroughly equipped unto EVERY good work? - Yes (2 Tim 3:16-17)
Do we therefore need any other religious creeds or books like the BOM? - NO!

Acts 2:38...this means you!
ibmagg
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Campbellites called themselves campbellites. For them it was a badge of honor. It sounds like YOU don't want to be associated with the founder of your church. That is not my problem.

Again ,a 2nd witness as to one is does not require that person TO DIE!

Orag, you are a great example of how people of your stripe misrepresent LDS doctrine. NEVER have I, or any Latter-day Sait ever claimed, suggested, or hinted that Christ died a 2nd time. BUT, you have!!

When you assert that Christ's ascension ito heaven was with only a spiritual body, that means he DIED again; death IS the seperation of the body and the spirit. What scripture, or what evidence do you use to support your claim. If Christ ascended into heaven in ONLY spirit form, then he would have had to lay his body down a 2nd. time. When his spirit left his body on the cross was obviously the first time. When and/or where was the second time? Orag, be man enough to admit that you CAN NOT rationally explain your claim. And you know and I know that this is prima facie evidence of a "man made" doctrine.

When you address this issue, we will continue. And when I say address, i don't mean for you to try to do the "Ali" schuffle. Remember, you jumped onto this board with your "attack" on the LDS beliefs. You can't even defend your own.

Something else for you to chew on; Did you live before you were born -I don't mean reincarnation; false doctrine?
orag80
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Ibmagg wrote - Campbellites called themselves campbellites. For them it was a badge of honor. It sounds like YOU don't want to be associated with the founder of your church. That is not my problem.

Response - yawn. Like I already told you. If someone picks up the Bible, reads it, understands it, believes it, and obeys it, then they will be a NT Christian. People who have done the same thing meeting together will be a congregation of NT Christians. Apparently this is what Campbell, and others did. If so, great for them. If I am doing it, then great for me too. But my faith and salvation does not depend upon what Campbell did. My faith is in the Word of God and all it teaches about Christ, etc., and my salvation is based on believing it and obeying it. As an aside, not I nor anyone else needs a BOM to be saved (John 20:30-31).

Ibmagg wrote - Orag, you are a great example of how people of your stripe misrepresent LDS doctrine. NEVER have I, or any Latter-day Sait ever claimed, suggested, or hinted that Christ died a 2nd time. BUT, you have!!

Response - for the last time, I showed you where for a new testament or will to be in place that the death of the testator is necessary. Go find my previous posts with supporting passages (it is late and I am tired). *Your* doctrine, which claims there is *another Testament* of Christ would require that *Christ* would have to die again for that the other testament to be in effect. What you don't realize is that *your* doctrine is the one that necessitates the death of Christ a second time…which is exactly why *your* doctrine is absurd.

From my last post on the other thread...

It amazes me how you keep chewing on this point over and over, even when I've already answered it. Christ ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God. I suspect that you are somehow trying to maneuver me into some issue of what kind of body He had when He ascended, so that you can show where Mormons have built up a whole BOM doctrine of their own for their own purposes. Guess what. I don't want to play, because *any* BOM doctrine is irrelevent. The only truth in there is where it plagiarized the Bible. In the scheme of things this "what kind of body" issue is a fairly minor point.

Here is a major point for you: the Bible contains *all* things that pertain to life and godliness, is thoroughly equips the man of God unto *every* good work, it is the *enduring* Word of God that is *imperishable*, we are not to go beyond what is written, it is the faith *once* delivered, it warns against anyone - even an angel - preaching *any* other Gospel that is contrary, your BOM is "another testament" that is contrary to the Bible, contradicts the Bible, itself, and other Mormon books. I could go on and on starting with my material at the top of this thread, starting with the arrogant belief that *you* will be a "God" some day, not to mention that "God" (the real, true, and only God) was "once a man". Blasphemy.

I have made a good faith effort to answer all of your questions in both threads. You have left many of mine unanswered. That makes for a less-than-fair discussion. Regarding my notes at the top of this thread, you keep saying how it is so wrong that you don't know where to begin…and so you don't even "begin". I don't expect to convert you. You believe the Bible is corrupted, contradictory, and incomplete. The Bible says otherwise in 2 Tim 3:16-17, John 20:30-31, Matt 24:35, I Pet 1:23-25 (and note in verse 25 that "this" word, not the BOM, is what was preached unto them). Because you believe what you do about the Bible, the door is open to "another Testament", and you have bought into it hook, line, and sinker. You have left the true and imperishable word of God and have followed a fraud. I grieve for you and for all of your seduced brethren who are caught in the snare of the Devil. I started this thread to try and help prevent more such seductions.

My only hope and prayer for you is that you will humble yourself, consider the true Word of God, trust in it, and obey what it teaches. I don't know what else I can tell you than what I have already said. I sincerely hope that you come to a knowledge of the truth.

Acts 2:38...this means you!
ibmagg
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When Christ went to preach to his "other Sheep which were not of this fold" he taught them the SAME gospel he did in Israel. A record was kept. It is a second WITNESS to the Divinity and reality of Jesus Christ. He didn't have to die a second time for this record to be kept and to come forth at a later time. You should learn the english language and not try to make some into what it is not. You should also famiialirize yourself with the law os witnesses.

YOU and YOU ALONE, have stated the Christ has died a second time when YOU falsely claimed the Christ's ascension into heaven was spiritual ONLY. Death is the separation of the body and the spirit. When or where did this happen. Is it recorded in the Bible? Of course not and you know it! You have trapped yourself into a corner. See if your pastor can help you out, but I promise you he is as ignorant in this matter as you are!!
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