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Well, so I am wondering if you had some kind of list of the 1000 hills He owns these cattle on?

Psalm 50:10 "For every beast of the forest is Mine,The cattle on a thousand hills.

I mean it “literally” says that. You wouldn’t try to say that is just symbolic, or a figure of speech.

How about Jesus sword tongue, you think you will get cut by it when you get to heaven?

Revelation 1:16
In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

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Notafraid -- Notafraid -- Notafraid -------

As we have discussed so many times in the past, some things are symbolic. They are obvious. But some things are literal.

*** When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense ***

1. The cattle on a thousand hills is obviously symbolic.

2. The Word of God as a sword is obviously symbolic.

3. Holding seven stars is obviously symbolic.

The context implies that the language is symbolic We agree on those phrases as being symbolic.


Now -- let's look further ----- where we disagree.

Rev. 20:2 - "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev. 20:3 - "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev. 20:4 - "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev. 20:5 - "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Rev. 20:6 - "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev. 20:7 - "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

Now Notafraid -- PLEASE answer this one question. I never seem to get a straight "to the point" answer.

Question: What is it in the context or in the wording of these verses that would cause a person (without the aid of amill notes) to believe that these verses are symbolic.

I see nothing that would cause that. They are not like the obvious symbolic verses like the cattle on a thousand hills. They seem and act as if they are literal.

*** When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense ***


Notafraid, I wait your answer Your answer to that question makes a bunch of difference in interpretation.






[This message has been edited by Olsen Iceberg (edited 4/12/2006 6:30p).]

How about this:

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And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent

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Seems like Introduction to Religious Symbolism 101 to me.

I would call the Dragon symbolic but remember Satan did take on the form of a serpent in the Garden of Eden.

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I would call the Dragon symbolic

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Well, this was easy. Case closed. There is no way you can criticize me for holding that other things are symbolic. Like the 1000 years here:

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Rev. 20:2 - "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Rev. 20:3 - "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

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How about the myriads and myriads of angels… That is literally 10,000X10,000, are there exactly that many? Well, 1000 years is a Hebrew colloquialism. Just as the verse about the Lord owning the cattle on 1000 hills. What it is, is a perfect period of time. Satan’s “binding” is the same event as when Christ said He had to “bind the strong man” and would pillage his house.

His house was the world, that he had blinded, well Now the the gospel is going forward to the ends of the earth, to every tribe and tongue, it is said that “he should deceive the nations no more”, meaning that once those who were far off, and in darkness are called out into Christ’s marvelous light. And of the increase of His kingdom there shall be no end!

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Rev. 20:4 - "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

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That’s right! Christ is on his throne right now! He is seated at the right hand of the Father, and I am one of His subjects, but I am also reigning with Him. I am reigning over my own heart, and as a faithful servant over all He has given me, or may work through me to do.

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Rev. 20:5 - "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

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That sounds like the resurrection of the dead on Judgment day!

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Rev. 20:6 - "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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The second death, the eternal death. I am a priest of God and Christ, in that I pray for you and others, and offer up sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving.

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Rev. 20:7 - "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.


Now Notafraid -- PLEASE answer this one question. I never seem to get a straight "to the point" answer.

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So what if he is released for a short time, He can do nothing to me without the will of my Father in heaven!

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Question: What is it in the context or in the wording of these verses that would cause a person (without the aid of amill notes) to believe that these verses are symbolic.

I see nothing that would cause that. They are not like the obvious symbolic verses like the cattle on a thousand hills. They seem and act as if they are literal.

*** When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense ***

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Well, if we let scripture interpret scripture we see that 1000 is often used to speak of 1000 generations, cattle on 1000 hills, 10,000 X 10,000 angels, 10 days, etc… Again your problem is that when it makes *plain sense* to you, that is making *plain sense* to a 20/21st century American white guy. That is your hermeneutic. Your own reason based on the culture you know. Thankfully, we see that Eschatological texts are typically full of symbolic speech, like the “dragon” that you acknowledged above, and so, you can hardly insist that I take the 1000 literally if you don’t even take the dragon to be literal. That is your problem, your literal hermeneutic is inconsistent.

The fact that I see this being about Christ reigning now and you don’t makes all the difference in the world in our practical theologies. It’s the reason why you are always sidetracked on and obsessed with end time stuff, and trying to decipher the times and seasons, and I am not.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/12/2006 11:20p).]

i believe all of revelation is symbolic. nearly every swinging word of it.

OI, do you go to a church that has men with long hair and women who have braided hair and wear gold earrings?

If so, that is a direct violation of a mandate from one of Paul's letters. It's literally there, and there is no reason to take it symbolically.

And, are the women in your church silent during the service? Another obvious mandate.

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The fact that I see this being about Christ reigning now and you don’t makes all the difference in the world in our practical theologies.

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I suppose you are speaking to Olsen directly, but no one I know doubts that the earth belongs to God, and the fulness thereof (Ps 24). Further, no one doubts that we are currently reigning with Christ in heaven. The scriptures plainly teach that being "in Christ" means that we are dead, buried, and resurrected with Him. Therefore, being seated with Him, we are currently taking part in His reign. However, I bleieve that He has promised to reign from EARTH, and to preside over a time of great peace, during which the hearts of the unredeemed will still be in rebellion to him, all the while making signs of outward obedience. Satan will lead them in their final rebellion which will be extinguished like a candle by Niagra Falls.

Now, I know you disagree with this interpretation, but as to the effect on my "practical theology," I see very little impact on my views of the mission of the Church, the commands of our Lord, the security of the saints, etc.

Can you clarify whom you were speaking to? Certainly, we can go to extremes - i.e. the Reformed can be anti-Semitic in their replacement theology, or the Dispensational can be similarly arrogant in their view that they will reign over Israel during the Millennium. But, I don't see how one's view of eschatology (as long as it is orthodox) must impact one's practical theology. After all, the study of end times brings one to the deeper appreciation of God's glory, dominion, and power. Even if we've got some of it wrong, these truths about God are compelling and beneficial.

Count me among the chorus. Revelation was a vision, which means everything in it is symbolic.

94chem,

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However, I bleieve that He has promised to reign from EARTH, and to preside over a time of great peace, during which the hearts of the unredeemed will still be in rebellion to him, all the while making signs of outward obedience.

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IS that “David’s throne” you are speaking of? That is just the rule over God’s people. As far as Jesus ruling over people for 1000 years which show only outward obedience, but still hate him on the inside. What is that all about? Is He going to go along with this ruse, or is He going to let them have it like he did the scribes and Pharisees, calling them broods of vipers, and whitewashed tombstones? Sounds pretty goofy! 1000 years of him rebuking them for their evil hearts, or 1000 years of him pretending like they really are serving form the heart.

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Now, I know you disagree with this interpretation, but as to the effect on my "practical theology," I see very little impact on my views of the mission of the Church, the commands of our Lord, the security of the saints, etc.

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Well, IF you are wrong about all of this end time focus, then how much of your time, energy, how much preaching and teaching, and focus on it have been a total waste of time?

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Can you clarify whom you were speaking to?

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Huh…The person who was asking me the questions, and the one I quoted in my post. That being Olson. Why, if You feel included, do you want to defend yourself?

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After all, the study of end times brings one to the deeper appreciation of God's glory, dominion, and power. Even if we've got some of it wrong, these truths about God are compelling and beneficial.

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Well, if you got nearly all of it wrong, then what is it?

Emoticons are for those who have trouble expressing themselves.

I wish I could express myself better. Sometimes I read the way I write thigns, and wonder how anyone can understand me!