Four blind men come across an elephant. They decide to feel the elephant to determine what sort of creature it is. One blind man feels the back leg of the elephant. He says, "An elephant is like a tree." The second blind man feels the trunk. He says, "An elephant is like a snake." The third blind man feels the tail. He says, "An elephant is like a rope." The fourth blind man is afraid. He doesn't feel the elephant at all.
The three blind men argue a long time about what an elephant is and based on their own personal experience each is right. Christians believe that knowing God is like this. Each person experiences God in a somewhat different way. This is one source of disagreement among Christians.

If the fourth blind man who has no real experience with the elephant, joins the argument, lying and saying that when he felt the elephant it was a large furry beast with sharp fangs and a drooling mouth, the issue will be greatly confused. How will the blind men know what to believe and what not to believe. The same situation occurs in Christianity. From time to time people come along telling us things about God that are not true. For a time (maybe decades or even centuries) Christians are confused, not knowing what to believe. This is another source of disagreement among Christians.

If the blind men continue to interact with the elephant, to experience it in new ways, and to share their experiences, it will not be long until they figure out that fur, fangs, and a drooling mouth don't fit with the other things they have learned about elephants. The blind man who has been afraid to touch the elephant will be found out. We believe that a similar process works with our attempts to know what God is like. Over the centuries, honest and intelligent men; great thinkers and scholars; and ordinary, genuine people have thousands of daily experiences with God. They write books, teach classes, and meet to share their experiences. Gradually over time, misconceptions will be corrected and a better understanding of God will emerge.

It is through this gradual, developmental process that we come to know God.

http://www.newreformation.org/elephant.htm


(Disclaimer: I am just posting this as a conversation piece. I am not necessarily affirming this guys thinking, or condemning it. Just throwing it out there.)

Since the concept of god/gods is human imagination, each person will have adifferent perspective at first.

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If the blind men continue to interact with the elephant, to experience it in new ways, and to share their experiences, it will not be long until they figure out that fur, fangs, and a drooling mouth don't fit with the other things they have learned about elephants

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What you are alluding to here is that if a person continues to interact with people who believe in the same dogmatic rendition of this make believe god idea, then slowly the person's idea of it will fit the dogma and the indoctrination will become complete. Religion has to be taught.

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Since the concept of god/gods is human imagination,

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Yet again, you state your faith presupposition as if it is a fact… How blind can a person be who is reminded again and again and again, and yet returns to his folly, again and again and again?… And you act so smarmy about it, like you are intellectually superior or something, but it's just so pathetic, it’s embarrassing. Please stop it! It's probably best to just say nothing, or avoid sharing too much of your thinking... It's that bad!



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 3/30/2006 12:17p).]

This may be slightly down a rabbit trail, but I think that this illustrates an aspect of the "we know in part" that Paul says in Corinthians.

I think that it means two things: one, there is absolute truth, but we can't know it absolutely. Or, whatever we know, there is always a degree of ambiguity. I believe that part of the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to minimize this aspect of communication because part of his ministry is to guide us into truth, and two, I believe that I may know in part, and another believer knows another part, etc. So, by talking about aspects of the kingdom of God, sharing truth and revelations, insights, etc, we "flesh out" our knowing.

When Paul referrs to seeing through a glass darkly, he is talking about mirrors use to present reflections. Because of the limitations of their technology, all mirrors/reflection glasses had imperfections. The mirror was an inaccurate representation of the person in front of it. The wealthy oftentimes has multiple reflecting glasses to address this imperfection.

So his metaphor points to both ideas. Our "knowing" is imperfect and incomplete, and our knowledge is only part or the truth; I need others to expand my knowledge and revelation.

I believe that this aspect of the Body of Christ is oftentimes slighted. Because of our cultural background, the American mindset, we oftentimes look at scripture like just me and Jesus. When part of the context of my revelation is to take place in the context of the Body of Christ, His church.

I apologize for the ambiguity of what I am trying to say. I may need to clarify later.

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Religion has to be taught.

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Why do you keep saying this? I called you on it already in another thread. Every civilization since the dawn of mankind has had religious beliefs. Being religious is the natural state of men. It does not have to be taught.

Becoming an atheist, however, is a process of education. People aren't born atheists, otherwise, there would have been widespread atheist societies in the ancient past. From everything we know, there were none. Atheism has only existed for a very short time in human history, and it's maturation can clearly been seen by chronicling philosophies of history. Only with the recent advent of the scientific method 200 years ago has atheism become a closed system.

I'll agree with ramblin_ag02 that the belief in a higher power is fairly intuitive throughout all of mankind. But I also agree that knowledge of God has to be taught, it's not something you'll come to on your own. So weather is from the Bible or from your church or from your parents you were taught about God.

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But I also agree that knowledge of God has to be taught, it's not something you'll come to on your own.

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SOME knowledge.. Romans 1 says that all men know God.

Belief in a higher power is a basic human instinct and it is useful when we are young so that we bond with and respect parents, teachers, etc. The problem is that as we become older and smarter (hopefully), we would like to portray this authority on to something even if that something is make-believe.

Religions are evident in most cultures because of the need to explain the unexplainables (Volcano erupts - Uga booga is mad, etc.) and because of politics.

"Religion has to be taught" is a true statement. The vulnerability for the projection of authority is part of the human condition. That is the reason why you are the religion you profess today, your parents and/or community indoctrinated (brainwashed) you.

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Uga booga is mad

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I laughed

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Belief in a higher power is a basic human instinct

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Yet again you show your faith presupposition that all things have a naturalistic cause. Yet, the scriptures declare that all men know God, because it is made apparent to them through the creation, and they obey the Law, being a law unto themselves, showing in their conscience that they know God, and some truth of what is right. That we know God, is also because we are made in His image. I believe these things taught in the scriptures by faith. You have spent a lot of time belittling people who are of faith, and you have told us that you are not a man of faith, but a man of reason, and logic, and science, yet you once again display your faith to us! You apparently just don’t get it!

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Yet, the scriptures declare

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= loss of credibility

and it is apparent that you don't get it.

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but a man of reason, and logic, and science, yet you once again display your faith to us!

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Yes, and the faith that I value (science/common sense) is that reality as we know it will continue.

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= loss of credibility

and it is apparent that you don't get it.

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Because I am honest that my worldview has faith presuppositions does not = a loss of credibility. It establishes my credibility. That you deny yours, or you behave inconsistently, is a huge credibility issue.

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Yes, and the faith that I value (science/common sense) is that reality as we know it will continue.

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You have blurted out such statements of pure faith on this very forum such as “the concept of god/gods is human imagination”. How do you know that is true? Surely you can not appeal to science to prove that. As far as common sense, the fact that you can not even know that is true, and you state it as if it’s a fact, how is that commonsensical? It’s foolish. So Again, you are inconsistent with what you claim to be, for the 1000th time. How often do I have to point that out? Who has no credibility now?

Or how about when you say this: “Belief in a higher power is a basic human instinct”, again you appeal to your assumption of a naturalistic universe. Something that you can not know is true, yet you state it like it’s a fact. Reasonable? I don’t think so. It’s not reasonable, it’s not sensible, it’s stupid! And yet right on the heals of that you say that the faith that you value is “science/common sense”. So you say! Yet you continually show us that you are not.

There is an old Chinese proverb that says “What you do speaks so loudly that what you say I can not hear”. I suppose you really want to believe that you are such a man of reason, and a man of science so badly that you must reject the idea that your actions are continually inconsistent with the presuppositions of your worldview.

So there you have it. Your worldview is not even internally consistent. You are continually inconsistent with the things you claim to be! You need to start over from scratch, because this garbage you keep presenting is not working, at least not with people who are sensible, reasonable, logical.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 3/30/2006 3:36p).]

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Reasonable? I don’t think so. It’s not reasonable

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So says the man who believes in mythological fairy tales.

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because this garbage you keep presenting is not working, at least not with people who are sensible, reasonable, logical.

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Sensible, reasonable, logical and Notafraid do not go together. I will try to resurrect my notafraid post for ya.

muster

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So says the man who believes in mythological fairy tales.

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How do you know that what I believe in is a mythological fairy tale?

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Sensible, reasonable, logical and Notafraid do not go together. I will try to resurrect my notafraid post for ya.

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If you want, but I don’t think you are getting anywhere with this. You simply keep pretending that your faith, that my faith is not true, is a fact. That is not being reasonable. You are being illogical, and unreasonable. It’s not scientific either. Everything claim that you are: reasonable, logical, scientific, etc… It’s all been shown to be untrue, and now it appears your just in denial about it.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 3/30/2006 4:30p).]

Please respond to my comments on your arguments thread.

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Please respond to my comments on your arguments thread.

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Dude, if you didn't get things that were explained so simply here, why would you get it there? I’m beginning to get embarrassed for you. You really should stop…

Come on, notafraid, I am just pointing out the flaws in your arguments in a more efficient manner.

"I’m beginning to get embarrassed for you" - TRANSLATION - "I am running out of spin so I will try to belittle you".

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Come on, notafraid, I am just pointing out the flaws in your arguments in a more efficient manner.

"I’m beginning to get embarrassed for you" - TRANSLATION - "I am running out of spin so I will try to belittle you".

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The truth is that I held way back on you. Frankly trying to treat you with more respect than some would say that you have earned. I'm not here to run you off, or try and crush your spirit, or make you hate me. I just want to help lead you to the truth of some things. I am not perfect, and have not been as kind as I should have been, but I am trying.

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"Religion has to be taught" is a true statement. The vulnerability for the projection of authority is part of the human condition. That is the reason why you are the religion you profess today, your parents and/or community indoctrinated (brainwashed) you.

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Tenets and doctrine of specific religions must be taught. Religiousness is general doesn't need to be taught. In contrast, there are no born atheists. That is only something that happens after "education" when you get "smarter". Isn't it strange to you that the people who teach me about my religion are "brainwashing and indoctrinating" me, but the people who teach you about atheism are "showing you the truth"?

BTW, I refuse to argue the points of why my religion is correct to an atheist. It would be like arguing with an Iranian over the best American state. You don't really understand or like any of them anyway.

[This message has been edited by ramblin_ag02 (edited 3/31/2006 11:33a).]

Who taught me about Atheism?

How would I know?

OK, I've only been here 24 hours, yet even I already get it.

muster ag = pain in the keister

Muster, surely you know that you aren't going to convert anyone on this board, so why do you keep interjecting yourself into these threads? Is it that you actually, deep down WANT TO BE CONVERTED?!?

My point is just this: There are many other forums on this site, go enjoy them!

Since I can't detect radio waves or gamma rays, it's obvious that they don't exist.