One can NEVER attain Salvation by keeping the Torah.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom. 3:20

If we try to keep the Law we will have a knowledge of SIN, however.

No one can be justified by keeping the Law. The Law was not given to justify people but to produce the knowledge of sin - not the knowledge of salvation, but the knowledge of SIN.

We could never know what a crooked line is unless we also knew a straight line. the Law is like a straight line. When men test themselves by it, they see how really crooked they are.

We can use a mirror to see that our face is dirty, but the mirror is not designed to wash the dirty face. A thermometer will tell if a person has a fever, but swallowing the thermometer will not cure the fever.

The Law is good when it is used to produce conviction of sin, but it is WORTHLESS as a Savior from sin.

I would narrow your argument a bit, if I were you. Jesus' perfection was defined by keeping the Torah perfectly in every regard and instance. That perfection made Him eligible to be your Savior.

Without the Torah, Jesus would have had no standard of perfection to fulfill, and you would not be saved.

So in a round-about sort of way, your salvation depends very much on the Torah.

Good thinking ramblin,

but the very next verse, Romans 3:21 says "But now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets.

So Paul begins by saying that the righteousness of God has been revealed apart from the Law.

This means that a plan or program has been revealed by which God can righteously save unrighteous sinners, and that it is not by requiring men to keep the Law.

Because God is holy, He cannot condone sin or overlook it or wink at it. He must punish it. And the punishment for sin is death.

Yet God loves the sinner and wants to save him; there is the dilemma.

God's righteousness demands the sinner's death, but His love desires the sinner's eternal happiness.

The gospel reveals how God can save sinners without compromising His righteousness.

This rightous plan is witnessed by the Law and the Prophets. It was foretold in the types and shadows of the sacrificial system that required the shedding of blood for atonement.

Verse 21 tells us that this righteous salvation is not obtained on the basis of law-keeping. The apostle goes on and tells us how it is obtained - through faith in Jesus Christ.

Rom. 3:22 - "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe, for there is no difference."

Faith here means utter reliance on the living Lord Jesus Christ as one's only Savior from sin and one's only hope for heaven. It is based on the revelation of the Person and work of Christ as found in the Bible.

Faith is not a leap in the dark. It demands the surest evidence, and finds it in the infallible Word of God. Faith is not illogical or unreasonable. What is more reasonable than that the creature should trust his Creator?

Faith is not a meritorious work by which a man earns or deserves salvation. A man cannot boast because he has believed the Lord; he would be a fool not to believe Him. Faith is not an attempt to earn salvation, but is the simple acceptance of the salvation which God offers as a free gift.

[This message has been edited by Ross Volunteer (edited 2/15/2006 6:51p).]

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This means that a plan or program has been revealed by which God can righteously save unrighteous sinners, and that it is not by requiring men to keep the Law.

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I agree with you. I don't keep the Law because I am required to keep it. I keep it because I know God wants me to keep it. It is a show of good faith on my part to thank Him for the gift of Salvation.

ramblin,

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I keep it because I know God wants me to keep it.

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That is my entire point. With all due respect. WE CAN NOT keep the law. It is impossible!

James 2:10 says - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Ross:

Do you believe that a "Christian" is obligated to live righteously? Is a "Christian" free to live in sin?

Whatever it is that you believe defines sin, why do you believe that yours isn't "salvation by works," but once someone equates righteous living with Torah-observance, then suddenly it is "salvation by works?"

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That is my entire point. With all due respect. WE CAN NOT keep the law. It is impossible!

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How do you know? Have you ever tried? Which commandments do you find it impossible to keep?

Bracy, I know because I understand mental attitude sins.

A person may be all cleaned up on the outside by observing all the commandments - but inside may be a different story.

Yeshua looks on the heart. Can you say it is easy to keep all the commandment in your mind? In your thought pattern? Come on now. I know what the Scripture says. We can fool people but not God.

We are all SINNERS before God because he KNOWS our hearts. He is not just reading what we write.

We are ALL GUILTY. NO ONE CAN KEEP THE TORAH.
If we offend in one point we are guilty of the entire Law. And believe me, we all fail in the mental attitude sins if not otherwise.

We need a Savior because by keeping the deeds of the Law NO FLESH will be justified in His sight.
Maybe in people's sights. But not in God's sight.

[This message has been edited by Ross Volunteer (edited 2/15/2006 7:17p).]

Ross:

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Bracy, I know because I understand mental attitude sins.

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Those are you own commandments then, they are not the commandments of God. I'm not saying that one shouldn't strive to control their thoughts, but it isn't a violation of the Torah.

The Torah was the law of the land. Nobody was stoned to death for having "impure" thoughts, just as nobody is guilty of breaking the law in the U.S. for having "impure" thoughts.

Again I ask: If the Torah required perfect obedience, then what was the purpose of sin offerings?

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NO ONE CAN KEEP THE TORAH.

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Can you prove this from scripture? Scripture says quite the opposite. In fact, it even goes so far as to say "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/15/2006 7:27p).]

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We are ALL GUILTY. NO ONE CAN KEEP THE TORAH

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NO ONE CAN KEEP THE TORAH. The Scripture is very clear on that point.

First, concerning mental attitude sins. God is very concerned about the heart and the thoughts of mankind.

1 Samuel 16:7 - "But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."

Bracy, you said Prove that the Torah cannot bring Salvation.

Romans 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Maybe we can justify ourselves in man's sight but not in God's sight according to the Scripture.

The Torah is good when it is used to produce conviction o9f sin, but it is worthless as a Savior from sin.




[This message has been edited by Ross Volunteer (edited 2/15/2006 7:35p).]

Ross:

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First, concerning mental attitude sins. God is very concerned about the heart and the thoughts of mankind.

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I didn't say that one shouldn't strive to control their thoughts. In fact, I said quite clearly said that one should do this. But, I said that this isn't a violation of Torah anymore than it is a violation of U.S. law.

You're creating a straw-man. You're saying that nobody can keep the Torah, and then try to prove it with examples that aren't in the Torah in the first place.

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Bracy, you said Prove that the Torah cannot bring Salvation.

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No I didn't. I asked you to prove from scripture that nobody can keep the Torah.

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The Torah is good when it is used to produce conviction o9f sin, but it is worthless as a Savior from sin.

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How can it convict you of sin unless it is the standard that defines what sin is?

That is exactly what the Holy Spirit of God writes in Romans 3:20 almost word for word.

"Therefore by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of sin."

You have asked a lot of questions on this board about sin. What is it, etc.

According to Romans 3:20 - by the Law is the knowledge of Sin. You should be learning a lot about it after obeying the Torah.

Seems to me that God says I can keep the Law. Especially with Christ to strengthen me and the Holy Spirit to teach me.

Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Again, I am not perfect, and I will never claim to be. However, I can do my best. That counts a whole lot more than nothing. After all, King David kept the entire Law except for one instance, and God Blessed him for it. David was still guilty of the whole Law, but it doesn't mean he stopped doing his best to folow the Law and seeking God's forgiveness for his trangression.

You are not even trying. You've given up the fight before its even started. You won't even read the Bible and find out exactly what you are arguing about.

You are perfectly capable of doing it yourself, but I will make you an offer. Tell me about yourself, and I will tell you which commandments I think apply to you. It would be better if you would do it, because I am not your teacher. I am also not always correct, and I usually only get that kind of free time on the Sabbath. Despite all this, I will do this for you just to show you the "impossible imperatives" God wants His followers to keep.

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I asked you to prove from scripture that nobody can keep the Torah.

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"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
James 1:10

Can you keep the Torah and not offend on one point? I think not. We are all guilty.

Remember what Yeshua said in Matt. 5:28 - "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Hop in the Boat Bracy. We are all in the same boat. GUILTY before God. We need a Savior. We CANNOT keep the Law.

His blood was shed to pay the penalty for our sins. We are GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY. Law or no Law!

Remember what I said previously. We could never know what a crooked line is unless we also knew a straight line. The Law is like a straight edge. When men test themselves by it, they see how crooked they are.

The Law points out sin. It can not and will not bring Salvation! Only YESHUA can do that!


[This message has been edited by Ross Volunteer (edited 2/15/2006 7:53p).]

Ross:

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"Therefore by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of sin."

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"Deeds of the law" or "works of the law" in Hebrew is ma'aseh hatorah which does not refer to obedience of the Mosaic law. It is a reference to obedience of Pharisaic "Oral Law."

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You have asked a lot of questions on this board about sin. What is it, etc.

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The apostle John defines sin for us:

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1 John 3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (Torah).

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How does John define sin above?

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His blood was shed to pay the penalty for our sins. We are GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY. Law or no Law!

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Yes, we are guilty of sin. The punishment of sin is death. We all need Yeshua's atoning blood in order to inherit life. That atoning blood is applied to us and atones for our sins IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS not if we merely accept a philosophical school of thought.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/15/2006 8:07p).]

Ross:

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"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
James 1:10

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I've already pointed out to you that James was not using this as an argument to disregard the Torah. Is this just going in one ear and out the other? If so, this discussion will end right here because I do NOT appreciate having to repeat myself.

Again, I'll point out to you the context of James' statement. I'll even highlight in bold and ALL CAPS that you can easily see it:

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James 2:9-10: BUT IF YE HAVE RESPECT TO PERSON, YE COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

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Again, James WAS NOT saying "Nobody can keep the law, therefore we don't have to try." HE WAS SAYING "BY NOT SHOWING LOVE TOWARD YOUR BROTHER YOU ARE TRANSGRESSING THE LAW. ALL OF YOUR SABBATH-KEEPING, OBSERVANCE OF HOLY DAYS AND DIETARY LAWS AMOUNTS TO NOTHING BECAUSE YOU ARE VIOLATING ONE OF THE VERY PRINCIPLES THAT THE TORAH TEACHES: LOVE TOWARD YOUR BROTHER.

Get it?

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The Law points out sin. It can not and will not bring Salvation! Only YESHUA can do that!

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I NEVER SAID THAT THE TORAH BRINGS SALVATION, I SAID THAT YESHUA'S BLOOD ATONES FOR OUR SINS ON THE BASIS THAT WE OBEY HIS TORAH COMMANDMENTS.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/15/2006 8:08p).]

No, I didn't ask you to define sin.

I said that you have a knowledge of sin, because the Law brings a knowledge of sin not salvation.

You mention 1 John 3:4

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

The word commits here is literally does (Greek, poieo). It is a matter of continual behavior, expressed by the present, continuous tense.

It is possible to have sin even if there is no law. Sin was in the world between the time of Adam and Moses, but this was before God's law had been given.

So it is not entirely accurate to say "that sin is a transtression of the law", (1611 KVJ), but rather that sin in lawlessness. It is subordination to God, wanting one's own way, and refusing to acknowledge the Lord as rightful Sovereign.

In essence it is placing one's own will above the will of God. It is opposition to a Living Person who has the right to be obeyed.

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I said that you have a knowledge of sin, because the Law brings a knowledge of sin not salvation.

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AND *I* SAID THAT THE LAW CAN ONLY BRING KNOWLEDGE OF SIN IF IT IS THE STANDARD THAT DEFINES SIN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

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The word commits here is literally does (Greek, poieo). It is a matter of continual behavior, expressed by the present, continuous tense.

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Why are you Greek to me? I thought you said you weren't a Greek thinker?

It's the HEBREW word you need to understand, not the Greek.

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So it is not entirely accurate to say "that sin is a transtression of the law",

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Then you need to take up the issue with John. While you're at it, you'll need to take it up with Moses who defined "righteousness" as obedience of the Mosaic Law:

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Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

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(1611 KVJ), but rather that sin in lawlessness. It is subordination to God, wanting one's own way, and refusing to acknowledge the Lord as rightful Sovereign.

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"Lawlessness" is Torahlessness. They are one and the same thing.

Look, when I have to repeat myself three, four, or five times, I'm gonna repeat it in bold and all caps to point it out to you.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/15/2006 8:20p).]

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I NEVER SAID THAT THE TORAH BRINGS SALVATION, I SAID THAT YESHUA'S BLOOD ATONES FOR OUR SINS ON THE BASIS THAT WE OBEY HIS TORAH COMMANDMENTS.

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So then the OT does bring salvation. I must recieve Jesus AND obey the OT. No obedience to the OT, no salvation, right?

That sounds to me like you make obedience to the law a requirement on top of the atonment of Jesus.

You can capitalize, that is fine. But you seem to contradict yourself.

Let's review. I said that the Torah could not bring salvation. Now you agree. I don't think you always agreed on that.

I said the no one could keep the Torah. I don't think you always agreed on that. Now you agree.

I said that the blood of Yeshua is what washes away our sins. You are now trying to qualify that statement by adding the Torah. Am I right?

I am saying that the blood of Yeshua cleanseth from all sin unconditionally. In other words, you do not have to be obedient to the Torah for salvation thru the blood of Yeshua.

Ross:

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Let's review. I said that the Torah could not bring salvation. Now you agree. I don't think you always agreed on that.

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I never disagreed. That was your allegation, not mine. I've always maintained that Torah is the standard that defines righteousness, that we are guilty of sin, and that are all deserving of death because of sin. I have always maintained that we need Yeshua's blood for the atonement of our sins.

The point on which we differ, and which I can't seem to get through your head, is that it is through obedience of His Torah commandments that we receive His atoning blood, and not on the basis of what we think inside our heads.

Torah-obedience does not mean we must do it "perfectly" without ever breaking a commandment during our lifetime. It means that we accept His Torah as the standard by which we live our lives, obey the commandments to the best of our ability, repent when we falter, and continue striving to improve, and to become more and more like Yeshua. Yeshua obeyed the Torah, and showed us what a Torah-observant life is. The Torah is what teaches us how to be "Christ-like."

It really is that simple.

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I said the no one could keep the Torah. I don't think you always agreed on that. Now you agree.

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I have always maintained that we can keep the Law, but that the salvation never required "perfect Torah obedience." If it did, there would never have been a reason for God to give us commandments regarding the offerings for sin. The only time when a sin offering is offered is when a commandment has been broken.

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I said that the blood of Yeshua is what washes away our sins. You are now trying to qualify that statement by adding the Torah. Am I right?

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No, you are not right. I have always maintained that the blood of Yeshua is what washes away our sins. But we receive that blood, not on the basis on what we "believe," but on the basis of whether or not we obey His commandments.

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I am saying that the blood of Yeshua cleanseth from all sin unconditionally. In other words, you do not have to be obedient to the Torah for salvation thru the blood of Yeshua.

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And I'm saying that Yeshua's blood only atones for your sins if you repent and return to His Torah commandments. It is through your actions, not your words, or your thoughts, that you "accept Jesus." If you don't obey His commandments, then you haven't accepted Him, and His blood is not applied to your sins.

"Perfect Torah obedience" was never a requirement of the Torah. That is a Christian myth. If "perfect Torah obedience" was necessary, there would have been no reason for sin offerings. Sin offerings were only offered when one violates the Torah commandments. Today, when we sin, it is Yeshua's blood, and not the blood of animals, which has been shed for the atonement of our sins. But there is still the requirement to repent whenever we falter.

Yeshua died for the atonement of our sins, not to free us to go on sinning.

It is by becoming a member of the Sinai Covenant that we are "saved." We accept our obligation to keep our end of the covenant -- keep His commandments -- and in return, Yeshua's blood is applied to us for the atonement of our sins -- that's God's end of the covenant.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/16/2006 4:14a).]

Bracy- So you are saying that all that follow the Torah will be saved by the blood of Yeshua...wether they believe him to be the Son of God or not? Is that what you are saying...Because I know many Jewish people that follow the Torah but do not believe That Yeshua was the Son of God...

andesag2000:

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Bracy- So you are saying that all that follow the Torah will be saved by the blood of Yeshua...wether they believe him to be the Son of God or not?

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Yes, I believe that one is saved by becoming a member of the Sinai covenant and keeping their end of that Covenant. In return for our obedience, Yeshua's blood atones for our sins.

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Because I know many Jewish people that follow the Torah but do not believe That Yeshua was the Son of God...

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Actually, rabbinic Jews do not follow the Written Torah, they follow the Pharisaic "Oral Torah" with which they have replaced the Written Torah.