Anyone go there? My wife and I visited this weekend and we fell in love with the place. The music was great and Pastor Danny was pretty good. Reminds me of a small version of Joel Osteen's church.

quote:

---

Reminds me of a small version of Joel Osteen's church.

---

I hope they do not teach what Joel Osteen teaches.




Apollos.ws
think.learn.know

Joel Osteen teaches some really good stuff. It just happens to have little to do with the gospel most of the time. Listening to him is like going to a good financial seminar. I learn some really useful behaviors and ways of living, but it doesn't have much to do with "preaching Christ crucified."

I don't know this church. Read Acts 2:36-38. Is this what is taught there?

quote:

---

I hope they do not teach what Joel Osteen teaches.

---

No. This is more of a Bible based church than Osteen's. They still preach about using the Bible to better your life and become more successful in life, but not in the same way that Osteen uses it as a self help seminar.

quote:

---

I don't know this church. Read Acts 2:36-38. Is this what is taught there?

---

Very much so. Even though they are non-denominational, they still practice baptisms and communion.

I'm gonna be rich because Joel Osteen told me I deserved it because I believe in Jesus.

I love Six Flags over Jesus.

A friend's family started attending Lakewood many years ago for the specific reason that, as per their understanding, they could get rich by doing so.

Obviously a wrong reason to attend church.

That's bad enough in and of itself. What's worse is the fact that after looking in the driveway every morning to see if the Mercedes had gotten there yet they became very bitter and felt that they had been tricked. They stopped going to church- any church- and became very anti-religious.

Lets please not derail this thread. Covenant is not like that at all. I just meant that the service itself (music, excitement, etc) was similar. There was no message on "get rich quick" or anything of the sort.

Also, I have watched Joel Osteen many many times and never once got the message that it was "believe in God and you will get rich"

quote:

---

They still preach about using the Bible to better your life and become more successful in life, but not in the same way that Osteen uses it as a self help seminar.

---

Well, maybe you need to define the term "successful in life." As I understand those terms, my Bible teaches no such thing.

I've looked at the website because the name sounds like one of the family integrated churches that I've looked into. They do not appear to be a family integrated church.

From reviewing the website, I personally don't like the approach. They list their mission as: "We are here to...equip and empower people to live balanced, successful Christian lives." I don't think the Bible teaches we are to live "balanced successful Christian lives." It certainly is not how I would describe Paul's life, for example.

I haven't ever been though, and they may be teaching biblical Christianity. I just thought I'd give my uninformed opinion.

[This message has been edited by Patriarch (edited 2/6/2006 4:53p).]

quote:

---

Also, I have watched Joel Osteen many many times and never once got the message that it was "believe in God and you will get rich"

---

You're right, it's more like "Believe in God/believe in yourself/be nice to other people and you'll feel happier/not get sick/get rich."

quote:

---

Well, maybe you need to define the term "successful in life." As I understand those terms, my Bible teaches no such thing.

---

What Bible are you using???

Psalm 118:25
O LORD, save us; O LORD, grant us success.

Ecclesiastes 10:10
If the ax is dull and its edge unsharpened, more strength is needed but skill will bring success.

Job 8:7
Your beginnings will seem humble, so prosperous will your future be.

Job 22:21
"Submit to God and be at peace with him; in this way prosperity will come to you.



Those are just a few. The Bible teaches us exactly that. Now, if you consider success as strictly monetary, then that is your mistake. I consider success as not only financial, but being a solid witness of Christ, a good father, a good husband and an all around good person.

quote:

---

They do not appear to be a family integrated church.

---

That is the furthest thing from the truth. I have never been to a church that was as focused on family as this one. The children's and youth ministry is the best I have ever seen in any church.

quote:

---

They list their mission as: "We are here to...equip and empower people to live balanced, successful Christian lives." I don't think the Bible teaches we are to live "balanced successful Christian lives." It certainly is not how I would describe Paul's life, for example.

---

The Bible does in fact teach us to lead balanced and successful Christian lives. It teaches us that if we believe in Christ and do as Christ did, we will be successful. Once again, you are equating success with money. And to use Paul as an example is just wrong. You can't take one person that had a hard time and say we should all expect to live like him if we are Christians. Look at David, look at Job. God granted them great successes because they believed in Him.

The problem with anyone thinking that following Christ has to do with money, is that they just don't understand these points:

a) Our rewards from God are FAR GREATER than anything monetary.

b) If we are successful financially, while that is God's blessing in our live, it is HIS money, not yours. NOTE: Doesn't mean that you can't buy things, but that - just like any other thing one can idolize - we cannot let our money interfere with our relationship with Christ.

c) God let's us have this money so that we can be good stewards and use it for His Kingdom.

If ANYONE is going to church because they think it will make them financically successful, I can see why they would be disappointed. Following that up with deciding to become anti-religious only solidifies that Satan is alive, and is high fiving everyone in hell for that victory.

I will refer you later to a sermon that was made by the pastor attacking the Mormon Church that contained multiple outright untruths. I am going to try and do a cut and paste which will make it easier so you can read the recorded transcript made a by a member for her Mormon friend.

which pastor? Pastor Danny?

quote:

---

Well, maybe you need to define the term "successful in life." As I understand those terms, my Bible teaches no such thing.

---

quote:

---

Deuteronomy 29:9: Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.

---

quote:

---

Joshua 1:7: Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it [to] the right hand or [to] the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.

---

quote:

---

1 Kings 2:3: And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

---

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/6/2006 9:43p).]

quote:

---

if you consider success as strictly monetary, then that is your mistake. I consider success as not only financial, but being a solid witness of Christ, a good father, a good husband and an all around good person.

---

Well, now, that is why I asked you to define it, right?

So, what happens if I am not successful? Does that mean I didn't have enough faith?

You have quoted only old testament scripture. I don't think those are directly applicable to the earthly rewards that a believer in the age of grace will receive.

[This message has been edited by Patriarch (edited 2/6/2006 10:26p).]

Pastor Ed Young, Fellowship Church in Grapevine' it was delivered in Dec. 2000 and responded to line upon line in May 2001. I just got back from "pumping iron"so if I have enough energy (and expertise), I will try to do the cut and paste. It seems that the material Pastor Ed uses comes from a standard "hymn book" that is used by most of his fellow ministers when they broach the subject.

Success can be described by not just your "faith" but by your OBEDIENCE" to Gods commandments which encompass so much more than Jonh 3:16. Obedience is the "first" law of heaven and is greater than sacrifice.

ibmagg:

Yep. Ed Young's my Pastor.

Go ahead and post your response, and I'll make sure I get it to some of the Pastors at my church.

Realize, you're getting information that isn't first - hand.

I do remember having four Mormons with traditional missionary dress, Elder nametags and black trenchcoats come into our church a few years ago during a service. I welcomed them and helped them find a seat in church, even though they showed up about 3/4 of the way through the sermon. They didn't say much, but did ask me about our Theology. They left and I never saw them again.

quote:

---

[That they are not a family integrated church] is the furthest thing from the truth. I have never been to a church that was as focused on family as this one. The children's and youth ministry is the best I have ever seen in any church.

---

I didn't mean this is as a knock against the church, but by "family integration" I am referring to a small movement where churches are doing away with a "youth" ministry, such as the two below (they tend to have family or covenant in their name):

quote:

---

Why Family Integration?

Grace Community Church is committed to strengthening families, so we keep them together as much as possible. This means that almost all home groups and Bible studies are geared for adults and children of all ages. We do have some meetings just for men and women, and couple events, but overall we try to keep families and single parents together. This is obviously in contrast to the popular approach, which divides up families and intentionally segregates by ages and marital status. Our specific goal is quite the opposite -- to integrate all ages as much as possible. Age-group segregation is a modern day church phenomena and is utilized by most church programs. We and sister family-integrated churches conclude that a more biblical approach is to minister to the family as a whole. It is our goal at Grace Community to integrate the ages and avoid age segregation for the following reasons:

* * *

During worship time at Grace Community, families sit together in the service, pray together during family prayer time and take communion as a family, led by the fathers or a deacon.

---

http://gracecommunityinfo.org/MemberShipIntegration.aspx

Here is another one:

quote:

---

Too often families come to church only to find their families split apart as soon as they walk in the door. The adults go one direction, the children go another, and sometimes do not see each other again until it is time to go home. We, at Family Reformation, believe there is a more biblical, and therefore better way to worship and serve God. We worship together! Yes, fathers and mothers sitting with their children together in worship, singing hymns and learning the Scripture.

It may be a surprise to you, but Sunday School and Youth Ministry cannot be found in Scripture. And they really cannot be found in church history! These movements, and others like them, are man’s attempts to build the church and the family. But the sad truth is they often fail. Programs may seem fun for a while, but their effect can be detrimental. Do we really need to wonder why 87% of Christian teens leave the faith after leaving their parents home? Could it be the impact of entertainment rather than discipleship? Could it be the misplaced loyalties, given to a well-meaning teacher and taken from a parent? Could it be the father’s abdication of responsibility? Can there be a better way?

There is – and we call it family integration. We, at Family Reformation, will not separate you from your children; rather we will help you learn to raise your children in the nourishment and admonition of the Lord! God has given you precious arrows – children – to prepare for His service. Do not give this blessing to another.

---

http://www.familyreformation.org/aboutus.php

"Do we really need to wonder why 87% of Christian teens leave the faith after leaving their parents home?"

No, but I wonder why people get to just make up numbers and post them on the internet?

I don't doubt that we've gone too far in our churches of segregating people based on age, etc. However, in my own church, we have a number of children in our HS group whose parents do not attend church at all. Praise God that He is calling people to Himself in many ways!

quote:

---

I didn't mean this is as a knock against the church, but by "family integration" I am referring to a small movement where churches are doing away with a "youth" ministry, such as the two below (they tend to have family or covenant in their name):

---

And that is a poor assumption on your part. As I stated above, Covenant Family Church has the best Children and Youth Ministries I have ever seen in all of the churches I have been to. And using examples such as Grace has nothing to do with Covenant. If I were going to Grace, then that would pertain here. If you want to see what I am talking about, actually explore the website.

Youth Group http://www.covenant-family-church.org/teens/index.htm

Children's Ministry
http://www.covenant-family-church.org/children/index.htm

[This message has been edited by Padfoot (edited 2/7/2006 9:59a).]

Preaches the Zig Ziegler style of "Success Gospel". Believe and ye shall receive.

Padfoot,

You're missing the point. I am not arguing with you (and there was no "assumption" on my part). I was defining what I meant by "family integration." My use of that term refers to churches that have done away with youth groups. So, the fact that Covenant Family Church "has the best Children and Youth Ministries I have ever seen in all of the churches I have been to" proves my point. It is not a "family integrated church" as I use that term. It may, however, be a wonderful church for families, and I hope you and your family grow closer to Christ there.

Look at this website, if you are interested in what I am talking about: http://www.visionforumministries.org/sections/ncfic/default.asp

[This message has been edited by Patriarch (edited 2/7/2006 12:22p).]

Patriarch,

You are completely right. I did not realize that the "family integrated church" thing you were talking about was an actual way of practice. So, yes, in some sense, Covenant is not a "FIC". But that is not to say that they are not completely. There are no policies or doctrines regarding bringing your children into the worship service. Actually, there is a section of the sanctuary that is reserved for people with small children. It is closer to the door to allow easier access if a child gets out of control or needs to go to the restroom, but at no time were we ever told not to bring our child in. However, we did take our 2 year old to the nursery because we felt she would enjoy it so much more (they do Bible study, singing, praying and play time). At my last church, the nursery was 3 college kids babysitting the toddlers and that was it.

So are they formerly NCFIC? No. But they do not discourage family participation like some churches do. And yes, I have seen churches where it is in the bulletin to take children to the nursery so as to not interupt anyone else's worship experience.

quote:

---

You are completely right

---

That's all I wanted to hear -- just kidding.

Based on your description, it does sound like they have made a very good effort to minister to the children (and thus the entire family).

i went there for one stint of a couple/few months and another stint of about a month before settling in at brazos community church, no lifechurch or something like that.

i can't say much about the youth other than to say that i know that it is a priority to the point that they put together a pretty big project to create a very neat rain forest theme right before i started going there. the college small group was mainly african students (note: not african american, although there were like two of those as well), which really provided a wonderfully different perspective that i loved. along those lines, this is easily the most mixed racial church i've ever been a part of.

they have speakers in from time to time who are amazing. i know i saw tommy tenney there while i was in college, don't really remember who else though off the top of my head. worship was phenomenal, passion and energetic.

in the end the only thing i really didn't like about the church were the actual sermons. it seemed a little light on substance or at least teaching of any depth on, well, anything. the teaching in small groups, however, was pretty good, and they did a good job about having good solid leaders for at least the college group. i thought it was a very good church that just wasn't home for me. one of my really good friends now went there for most of his college career and was in leadership there for a couple/few years and really came away with very little bad to say about the place.

my $0.02.

Padfoot -i keep trying to get my hands around the new technology but I am afraid I losing the battle. That said however, go the following website. If you can bring on this thread, I think people would find it very interesting. If this doesn't work call me @ 972/233-2604 in dallas.
"http://answertofellowshipchurch.homestead.com/index~ns4.html"

I know this sounds like bragging but you might want to check out our youth program. The multiyear, multmillion dollar study funded by the Eli Corp. completed last year by North Carolina U. at Chapel Hill rated the American teens on differenst aspects of reliosity and its impact in their personal lives. To their great surprise the LDS teens finished first in nearly every category -and this without a profesional clerg or youth minister. Ours is a multiphased and multifaced program. You are more than welcome to come and check it out and visit each aspect of the program. We have no secrets.

quote:

---

We have no secrets.

---

You have no secrets, but you use Christian terms with Christians, knowing full well they have completely different meanings than traditional Christian terminology. But you lead people to believe that it's the same thing, and it's not. That's deceptive.

If you have no secrets, please describe in detail the Temple ceremonies and rituals performed in which Non-mormons are not allowed to view.

[This message has been edited by b.blauser (edited 2/7/2006 11:15p).]

b.blauser -I made a mistake when I didn't include you in the post for the link to Pastor Ed's Sermon. Sorry about taht, I forgot your post. Let me know what you think of the discourse.

Would you give me all of the examples of terminology that we use to deceive people. Please don't include the word "Trinity" since it is not even found in the Bible. Your church's definition of three and and our definition of three is this: To us, three means three separate entities just as the scriptures declare. It is amusing that you will not acknowledge this topic was one of intense debate in the Council of Nicaea. This was not a new concept, never before voiced, that Joseph declared. Nothing like firsthand evidence to dispel error!

You know the difference between sacred and secret. We tell you what goes on in the temple, we just don't tell you how it is done. BUT, if you want to know that badly, join the Church, be a member in good standing for a year, and maybe you can fake your way pass the Bishop and Stake President's temple recommend interviews, and then you can find out for your self firsthand.

quote:

---

Would you give me all of the examples of terminology that we use to deceive people.

---

Let's just take one, it's the one that matters most.

Jesus. Who was he? Where did he come from? Was he ever a human being that was elevated to a God?

B.Blauser -Jesus, the firstborn of our Heavenly Father's spirit children (of which you and I are also one) devoloped a degree of stature or nobleness in the premortal life that He was a God (God the son). It was under His Father's direction that He created the heavens and the earth. God the Father did not personally get involved in this creation until it was time to create Adam & Eve in our heavenly parent's image. This part He did. Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, he was Jehovah before he came to earth to gain his mortal body.

Jesus was born with a dual nature as he was the only begotten of the Father. Jesus was born of the virgin Mary and and she conceived when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. Jesus grew and developed, as the scriptures say from grace to grace, until he gained all power after his baptism about the age of 30 at the hands of John the Baptist. When he allowed himself to seal his atonement for our sins on the cross, he was resurrected with a gloried body of flesh and bones quickened by the Spirit (no blood). He rules with God the Father at His right hand prepatory to His 2nd coming. He is a separate entity from the Father and the Holy Ghost, (a male personage of spirit) but they are ONE -and here is our difference; they are "one" in purpose, which is to bring to pass the immortaliy and etrnal life of man. When Christ offered his prayer that the Apostle might be one and He and is Father are one, he did not mean for them to come together in some big blob; But to be "united in purpose". This is different -yes; deceptive -no.

ibmagg, please forgive my ignorance, but what faith are you?

Padfoot - ibmagg is Mormon.

IBMagg:

quote:

---

devoloped a degree of stature or nobleness in the premortal life

---

So. He was once a man, who developed himself into a God then, right?

By that definition we all were i.e. men and women in our spititual premortal state. Remember God said let "us" make man in our own image, after our own likeness. Christ had never lived on earth as a man before he was born as a babe into mortality. He was a spirit before and during the creation of heaven and earth. The First born of our Father in Heaven and his ONLY begotten son in the flesh, he grew from grace to grace in the spirit word and achieved that position of Godhood. After his physical birth, He grew to the full stature of a man, as He is today. But as the resurrected, glorifed Son of God who has inherited all that the Father has.

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 2/8/2006 3:45p).]