I want to take the discussion a on a little track. Bracy hit a nail on the head with me. I have always been a "nice guy". Which basically means door mat.

I took my ideal of what it is to be a man from what I heard from my Mom, other women, and culture. So basically ended up trying to do the complete opposite of what they *****ed about when it came to the men in their life. So I ended up feeling like I could never get angry, had to take what people dished out at me, and be super open emotionally. What did that make me? Just another chick, with a *****.

What did you use as a model of proper manhood?

Well it used to be cowboys!

I remember an article a few weeks ago on the front page of the Dallas Morning News. It was talking about how there are more girls in JROTC programs than boys. If this is true, and our collective military future hinges on the performance of women. God help us all...

I don't know about that, the reason Bush has sent so many women with PMS to Iraq is because they retain water and they are mean as hell.

because men today prefer wine over beer

What's wine?

quote:

---

I remember an article a few weeks ago on the front page of the Dallas Morning News. It was talking about how there are more girls in JROTC programs than boys. If this is true, and our collective military future hinges on the performance of women.

---

Our daughter and her friend chose to take JROTC just so that they didn't have to take PE. I imagine that is common.

Women say they want nice guys which usually means "nice looking", I have seen so many date jerks and stay with them merely because they are good looking. They see the good guy as the one to change the light bulb, fix a flat and setup her TIVO yet the idea of being with this man escapes her because she knows that the brauny hunk who cheated on her would make her friends so jealous and would make her melt if he would just call her.

Men can be the same way too, they want a nice girl to settle with but in the mean time they will sleep around and mess around with a girl they have no realistic intention for just because she is a willing party.


I have a lady friend in her mid 30's, she has never married and wants to very much. She dates and loves to dance but she is a strong christian and she will not sleep with any man until she is married. She dates all types of men from her church yet none of them are good enough christians for her so holds out hope. Well she met this man who is great and she cares dearly for him yet their is a major problem...

He was married before and has 2 kids, as a result he does not want any more. she wants kids but she wants her own. As a result she is praying to God and Jesus to make him change his mind and bend to her will. I asked why not just accept his as your own and help raise them but she is stubborn and wants him to bow to her will. I told her if he won't you either need to accept his wishes and live with it or move onto someone else.

I find this situation interesting because she is always pushing me to become religous and telling me if I go to church I will met someone. I tell her that she has been going for also 30+ years and has not met one yet....

Its tough out there and I know for me it is not easy thing to meet women, but you just have to keep trying and just see what the next day brings.

The short and simple of it is: you are the person responsible for meeting your own needs, and you need to accept that responsibility. It isn't someone else's responsibility to meet your needs.

Maybe you haven't really thought about what your needs are. If so, you should make a list. When you "give to get," you are doing so because your needs are not being met, and you are trying to get someone else to meet those needs.

Once you accept the responsibility yourself, and get your needs met, then you will stop giving to get, and begin giving from the goodness of your heart with no expectation of receiving something in return.

Yep... I am slowly making progress on this. I set some major boundaries with myself and some other people this week.

Also, told a couple of women that I don't want to be "friends".

I have enough friends.

Bracy,

I know this, I am not going to be ashamed of my attraction to women. I will be responsible with it though. The Nice Guy syndrome is basically me. Not it is time to take control and stop it. I know it will take a while, and I need to work on me for a while.

bluag - Go join the Marines. You will not have this problem much longer. They turn wusses into men...

blueag:

Find a church that is currently offering this program and participate: http://www.mensfraternity.com/

Or, buy something off of this guy's website: http://www.spiritofelijah.com/resources/equippingmen/

I have an entire bookshelf devoted to this type of stuff, but these are two good places to start.

Here is a list of churches that are "registered" as currently offereing "Quest for Authentic Manhood." There are probably several more, which are not listed.

quote:

---

Broadview Baptist Church | Abilene, TX

Westcliff Bible Church | Amarillo, TX

Patio Cafe | Austin, TX

First Baptist Church, Beaumont - 3rd floor theater | Beaumont, TX

First Baptist Church Carrollton, | Carrollton, TX

Westhill Church of Christ | Cleburne, TX

Cypress Bible Church, Service Station (gym) | Cypress, TX

Park Cities Presbyterian Church, Fellowship Hall | Dallas, TX

East End Auditorium | Dallas, TX

First Baptist Church of Dallas - Coleman Hall | Dallas, TX

First Baptist Church Denton Fellowship Hall | Denton, Tx ^Top

Crossroads Bible Church | Double Oak, TX ^Top

North Fort Worth Baptist Church Family Life Center | Fort Worth, TX ^Top

Glenview Baptist Church Fellowship Hall | FORT WORTH, TX ^Top

First Baptist Church Choir Room (in south basement of Worship Center) | Georgetown, TX ^Top

the Warehouse, the building south of the worship center | grapevine, tx ^Top

Memorial Drive Presbyterian Church, Fellowship Hall | Houston, TX ^Top

Lakewood Church - Central Campus | Houston, TX ^Top

Tallowood Baptist Church Activities Center | Houston, TX ^Top

First Baptist Church Keller | Keller, TX ^Top

Mobberly Baptist Church | Longview, TX ^Top

Harmony Hill Baptist Church Worship Center | Lufkin, Tx ^Top

Calvary Baptist Chruch | McAllen, TX ^Top

Crosspoint Church | McKinney, TX ^Top

Oakwood Baptist Church | New Braunfels, TX ^Top

First Baptist Church-Pearland | Pearland, Tx ^Top

First Baptist Church-Pearland | Pearland, Tx ^Top

Church Building | Plano, TX ^Top

Fellowship Bible Church North -- sanctuary | Plano, TX ^Top

First Baptist Church | Post, Tx ^Top

First Baptist Church of Seabrook | Seabrook, TX ^Top

South Campus of First Baptist Church-Tyler | TYLER, TX ^Top

Galilee Room of the Worship Center | Tyler, TX ^Top

Legacy Outfitters | Waco, TX ^Top

Worship Center | Waxahachie, TX ^Top

Waxahachie Bible Church | Waxahachie, TX ^Top

---

quote:

---

THE QUEST FOR AUTHENTIC MANHOOD

The Quest for Authentic Manhood is the foundational level or ground floor of manhood. This 24-session study focuses on a man’s core identity and gives an overview of basic manhood issues. It will help men deal with various identity issues by looking back at past wounds and other things that may have distorted their idea of biblical masculinity. Throughout the course of the study, men will learn how to clearly define manhood and will finally be able to give a succinct and passionate answer to the questions, “What is a man?” and “What am I living to be?”

This captivating journey helps men:

Resolve wounds from their past
Embrace a biblical definition of manhood
Develop their own personal manhood plan

Chapter Titles:

At the Starting Line: Five Manhood Promises
The Four Faces of Manhood
The First Step to Authentic Manhood: Looking Back
The Second Step to Authentic Manhood: “Unpacking”
Remembering Dad
Facing the Father Wound
The Overly-Bonded with Mother Wound
Making a Healthy Break with Mom
The All Alone Wound
Three Cheers for Mentors!
The Wounded Heart
Implications of the Heart Wound
The Good News Solution to the Heart Wound
“Saddle Up!” for the Second Half
Genesis and Manhood
Genesis and Manhood, Part 2
A Biblical Definition of Manhood
A Biblical Definition of Manhood, Part 2
A Man and His Wife
A Man and His Wife, Part 2
25 Practical Ways to be a Servant Leader
Fathers and Sons
Fathers and Daughters
A Man and His Life Journey

---

http://www.mensfraternity.com/html/Product-Quest.asp

Our social service industry (aka welfare) has systematically driven the men out of the families that are dependent on it. That leaves the little boys with Biggie Smalls and Chris Rock as role models. Watch any bunch of teen and preteen boys and you'll see too many gangstas and wannabes. I don't think that was what FDR had in mind seventy years ago when he started those programs.

two thoughts:

One-----American beer tastes like water and has since the the 1950s. Note that the tv people constantly associate the drinking of beer with manliness--especially during the showing of football games and other sporting events. When you should be out getting some exercise you are sitting around watching a bunch of egomaniacal retards knock the crud out of each other while you watch with a belly full of watered down beer.

Two-----giving a damn about the wussification of american males is so wussish

lift weights.

start picking fights.

hth

Excerpts from 10 Stupid Things That Men Do to Mess Up Their Lives by Dr. Laura Schlessinger:

quote:

---

Generally, women are only concerned with those male feelings which involve… themselves. Do the men love them? Love their bodies? Think about them all the time? Think about any other women? Think about other women as sexy? Think about the relationship, and so forth. Any attempt at understanding and respecting a man’s feeling point of view is too often met with hostility.

When I wrote “Ten Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives,” I dealt with the still prevailing notion that men were responsible for women’s problems, failures, unhappiness, and frustrations in life. In hundreds of examples, women, in their own words, clarified how their own weaknesses, fears, impulsive behaviors, inappropriate desires, and lack of a value system, caused them to victimize themselves. Were the men in their lives faultless and innocent? Well, sometimes. And other times, the men chosen by the women were unhealthy. Perfect fit – a match, made in Purgatory.

Nonetheless, when I was interviewed about that book, the interviewers almost always ran to the fall-back, politically-correct position that whatever women did was out of “helplessness” because of their “oppressed state,” victimized not only by bad men, but a brainwashing society which trains women to behave… well… stupidly: more of that delicate, “picked on,” women routine. It’s fascinating that these women don’t realize their own hypersensitivity is what insults and diminishes women, not my calling things as they are.

---

quote:

---

The fix-it mentality is part of the reason that you self-proclaimed ‘Nice Guys’ fall into bottomless pits. First, the “Nice Guy” complaints, such as the one in this listener’s letter:

“I’m tired of being considerate and having it taken for granted. Therefore, I’m retiring from the ‘Mr. Nice Guy’ club. Seriously! It is a major disappointment that so few women appreciate the qualities of honor, respect, and genuine commitment. I am no saint, however the last five or six years have convinced me which treatment women prefer.”

I’ve heard this pathetic whining quite often in my life, as well as throughout the twenty years on air, and it’s just garbage. The problem is you. Here’s the real scoop on you “Nice Guys.” You use being nice as a substitute for being real. There is a tremendous difference between genuine thoughtfulness and acquiescence in the hope of being wanted or getting some sex. You give her no real feedback and you make no real demands. You give up your masculinity in order to become her best girlfriend so that there’s no threatening aspect to the relationship. Another way to trying to appease the gods? For these voluntarily de-masculinized men, a woman is another mother-replacement. And how do you act with your mother? Certainly not with any sexual tension or demands. The “Nice Guy” and even the “White Knight” behavior is in part due to the lack of recognition of the important reality that women are actually important to your lives.

---

quote:

---

The short and simple of it is: you are the person responsible for meeting your own needs, and you need to accept that responsibility. It isn't someone else's responsibility to meet your needs.

---

DING DING...We have a winner.

d.

1.

quote:

---

So basically ended up trying to do the complete opposite of what they *****ed about when it came to the men in their life. So I ended up feeling like I could never get angry, had to take what people dished out at me, and be super open emotionally. What did that make me? Just another chick, with a *****.

---

So those are characteristics of a chick? Interesting.

2.
How do you differentiate between this "responsibility for self" and selfishness or self-involvment? I guess I expected less me-focus from y'all.

IMO it is a fine line, very difficult to discern and I wonder how y'all define it?

One of the characteristics of being man (as taught in Quest for Authentic Manhood) is to "accept responsibility." That includes everything for which you are responsible -- yourself, your family, your job, etc.

The three others taught in that program are reject passivity, lead courageously, and expect (and work for) a greater reward.

[This message has been edited by Patriarch (edited 1/15/2006 9:20p).]

Is "accepting responsibility" only applicable to men? Only a good characteristic for a man?
Is it not important for being a good woman? Can women still be good women while denying responsibility?


What does "expect a greater reward" mean?

Yes, Alley. they are applicable to women as well as men.

"Greater Reward"? Can't think of anything other than Spiritual reward. Perhaps associated with good works? After all, the more you give of yourself, the more you gain.

d.

If it's applicable to women, then what we are talking about is how to be a good person. I wonder why this whole conversation is couched in gendered language when it is actually about things that are more universal.

So "expect a greater reward" means that one should expect a spiritual reward instead of worldly rewards like appreciation, recognition or physical 'payment'? I agree one cannot expect wordly rewards and still act in true kindness. But what spiritual rewards should one expect? Should they be expected or strived for/earned? Most Christians say we cannot earn God's gifts (spiritual gifts), but we are to expect them?
Color me confused. Maybe I'm wrongly conflating spiritual gifts with gifts from God. There's probably some semantic thing I'm just not getting...

I didn't know we were talking about how to be a good person. The original post was about modeling manhood.

Accepting responsibility is not the same for a man and woman. I am not saying that a woman shouldn't accept responsibility, but her sphere of responsibility is different.

While some of these traits (accept responsibility, reject passivity, lead courageously, expect a greater reward) might be applicable to women, they are the core values that a man should have. There are different principles that must be cultivated to be a biblical mom/wife than the ones that are most important for a husband/father.

biblical womanhood: Proverbs 31:10-31, Titus 2:4-5.

Patriarch -
How is accepting responsibility different for a man and for a woman? You defined the sphere for responsibility for a man as "yourself, your family, your job". If those are not part of a woman's sphere, what is?

How do you define "expecting a greater reward"?

I like how the women all ***** about wanting to be equal, but when push comes to shove we are the ones they want protecting them from the terrorists, the robbers in the night, and all the other ills out there.

Was that a troll?

"Patio Cafe" in Austin would be the Patio Cafe at Great Hills Baptist Church...I just went through the Quest program there.

I was wondering if any patio cafe in Austin is a church.

alley,

What do you think your role in the home and society should be?

I don't believe I have a 'set' role. I have a responsibility I chose to accept, a quality of person I strive to attain. I don't try to fulfill a role. I have strengths that I seek to recognize and utilize and I have weakness that I seek to recognize (very difficult) and avoid/mend/counteract.

I don't have a 'home' so much, but I have family and friends. My strengths are loyalty and sincerity and that is my responsibility to them.

As for society, well... I don't know really. What is your role in society? I’ve never seen an answer to that question that I really understood, so maybe I don't understand the question.

John Wayne would be a good model.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=95001309

quote:

---

How do you define "expecting a greater reward"?

---

The curriculum I was referring to talks about expecting God's reward, not something we have earned. Some of those rewards may come in this life (Psalm 27:13), but I think scripture usually refers to rewards in heaven. See Hebrews 12:1,2 (fixing our eyes on Jesus); 1 Tim 4:8 (looking for the promise for the life to come); Hebrews 11:6 (God rewards those that seek him).


[This message has been edited by Patriarch (edited 1/16/2006 9:01p).]

Men should accept responsibility for the biblical mandates they have as men. First, man was created to exercise dominion in the earth. Gen. 1:26-28; 9:1; Mat. 28:12-20. Second, man was created to make the world flourish. Gen. 2:15. Adam was told to tend and keep the garden in Eden. A man should therefore learn to be patient, careful, and hardworking. Third, men are meant to be protectors. They should be strong, sacrificial, courageous, and good. Fourth, a man has a responsibility to acquire wisdom. Proverbs 1-9. Thus, we must be teachable, studious, and thoughtful. Finally, men are the glory of God. 1 Cor. 11:7. We should therefore behave appropriately by being responsible and holy.

As a husband, a man must imitate Christ to his wife. He must nourish her and love her sacrificially as Christ loved the church. He must provide for his family. Exod. 21:10-11; 1 Tim.5:8. He has the responsibility to be content with his wife. Prov. 5:15-19; Mat. 5:28.

Do not these same responsibilities apply to women/wives? In some cases, but there are also different commands for a wife.

A wife must respect her husband. Ephesians 5:22,33. Wives are also to love their husbands because all believers are to love their neighbors, but when it comes to a wife’s “sphere of responsibility,” scripture speaks also of respect. Wives are to accept responsibility for being industrious in the home. Tit. 2:3-5. Scripture does not teach that wives are only to be in the home (Prov. 31:10-31), but it does require that the home be her priority. There are more, but this should get sufficient hate mail for now.


[This message has been edited by Patriarch (edited 1/16/2006 9:32p).]