Although I align with the Republican party on nearly everything, I really think I believe the death penalty is wrong. Do you believe God gives us the right to decide who committed a sin so horrible that they should be killed and not forgiven? Honestly, I am undecided, and open to others' opinions, but I think I lean against the death penalty. What does the death penalty say about our willingness to forgive people? Your thoughts...

Edit: I didn't like how the other thread was going about the death penalty so I started my own.

[This message has been edited by HaywoodJeffries (edited 7/9/2005 3:29p).]

Biblical references or explanations would be ideal

What does releasing known child molestors out of jail so they can terrorize and murder entire families then molest little boys and girls again say about our common sense? God gave us a brain, we should use it once in a while and not cop out with the "we can't judge" bs.

And those people can always be forgiven by God. Just because we have decided it is safer and better for evil people to be put to death does not mean they are not forgiven. Whether you want to believe it or not there are many people out there who are evil and will never seek forgiveness for anything they do. I do not judge their soul, I just judge that they need to be killed so as to protect society from their evil. Common sense tells me that.

Rom 13:1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


Christians do not wield the sword for Christ, but governments can and do. It is no conflict with my Christian faith to wield the sword, in justice, or in war.

Governing authorities are established by God, for good. Many of them fail at this responsibility, but that does not take away the responsibility they have before God to do what is good and right. They are given the sword (to protect, and to do justice) sovereignty by God for good.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 7/9/2005 6:07p).]

I believe God is ok with a murderer dying at the hands of government. I wish I was better wiht my memory verses, but know in one of the Mosaic books there is a verse that says something along the lines of... "an eye for an eye, and tooth for tooth, if any man takes another's life, his life is required of him."

AggieFanatic
I'm not advocating releasing these people back into society. If they commit some of these awful crimes, I think they need to serve life sentences without parole. When you sentence these people to death, you are essentially deciding that person A still deserves to be alive for crime X but person B deserves to die for crime Y. Who are we to decide which sins warrant death and which don't? That is not our decision. A person is no harm to society if they are in solitary confinement for the rest of their life.

Notafraid
You have to put that verse into context. Paul is writing that letter to the Roman Christian church instructing them to follow the Christian leaders God put into place. I don't think this can be universely applied to today's world without exception. You say God gives government right to "use the sword." Do you think, as verse 6 says, that people such as Saddam Hussein and Hitler were acting as God's servants. Obviously not. Just because a person is a government leader does not give them the right to commit an act that would be a sin for us to do. America is no different. A person in prison for life is no more threat or burden on society than one put to death, only they die when God decides, not us.

Obejuan03
The Old Testament book you refer to is opposed to nearly everything Jesus preaches in the New Testament. In addition, Paul writes in Romans 12:17-21, "17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. 20On the contrary:"If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." If God wanted these people who commit such horrible crimes to be killed, he could easily do it, as he similarly did with the flood. I don't think it is our responsibility to decide who is worthy of living.

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Who are we to decide which sins warrant death and which don't? That is not our decision. A person is no harm to society if they are in solitary confinement for the rest of their life.

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God gave us a brain so we would have intelligence. That is who we are to decide. Yes, it is our decision. It is called taking responsibility for our society. Whether you like it or not there are people out there who are evil and should be put to death. Your so called solution of putting every one of them in prison is not only so expensive it can't be done, but it is a cop out so you don't have to take the responsibility to make the necessary decisions. There are plenty of liberal judges out there who will free these people so we cannot now, nor ever rely on the prison system to keep us safe from them. The prison system is only a minor inconvenience to many of the criminals out there. Believe what you want Haywood, but God did not expect us to act like a bunch of idiots when he gave us all a brain. It is beyond me why some people are so willing to show sympathy for evil rather than see it for what it is.

Too often we find people in our society who are too cowardly to make the necessary decisions to keep us safe. People don't like to make decisions as big as whether or not someone should die. And they certainly don't like to live with making those decisions. That is why it is so easy for them to cop out and start with this "only god can decide" bs. Well when it is your little kids being molested, tortured, then killed you come back here and say we cannot decide. I am sure you might have a change of heart if you had to deal with the evil many of these people perpetrate.

Think about this Haywood. Many times when a decision is made to allow a killer to be set free or not given the death penalty that same killer kills again. Thus the people who did not put that killer to death when they had the chance are responsible for the deaths of the people the killer killed. So who are they do decide that those people would be killed or not? No matter how you look at it you are going to have to make a decision. Your decision will effect many people, potentially killing some of them. So why make any decision at all? If we don't have the right to decide then we should make no decisions and let these killers kill who the choose. After all, who are we to decide. Let God be the one to strike the killer dead if he wants to judge them, right.

Another thing, do you believe this country was founded by God fearing men? Do you believe God had a hand in forming this country? If so then you abdicate killing for the sake of freedom, but not for the sake of putting to death an evil murderer?

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The Old Testament book you refer to is opposed to nearly everything Jesus preaches in the New Testament. In addition, Paul writes in Romans 12:17-21, "17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. 20On the contrary:"If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." If God wanted these people who commit such horrible crimes to be killed, he could easily do it, as he similarly did with the flood. I don't think it is our responsibility to decide who is worthy of living.

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No verse in the New Testemant ever contradicts the right of the government to enact just punishments upon criminals. God is a God of love, but the entire Old and New Testemant tells us that he is also a God of justice, and just punishment for wickedness.

We cannot rely on God to "kill" our murderers for us. How many good people do you know that die way too young, while the wicked live to a ripe old age? We cannot question the will of God, but we do know that if we are foolish enough to let criminals loose without just punishment, I think God would be more dishonored than honored by that.

Even when Jesus was on the cross, he makes no mention of whether he thought the two criminals hanging next to him deserved such punishment, he saved one's soul for his faith, but did not save him from his death from what was most likely just punishment according to Roman law.

HaywoodJeffries

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You have to put that verse into context. Paul is writing that letter to the Roman Christian church instructing them to follow the Christian leaders God put into place. I don't think this can be universely applied to today's world without exception. You say God gives government right to "use the sword." Do you think, as verse 6 says, that people such as Saddam Hussein and Hitler were acting as God's servants. Obviously not. Just because a person is a government leader does not give them the right to commit an act that would be a sin for us to do. America is no different. A person in prison for life is no more threat or burden on society than one put to death, only they die when God decides, not us.

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Well first off, I don’t know why you even bothered asking, if you were just here to try and educate those who you asked for an answer.

Secondly, he is speaking about the secular governing authorities. Do you think he gives the sword to the church?

Third, I answered your question before you even posted about bad governments. Yes, I do believe that he even established all authorities, even evil ones, as I stated before they have the responsibility to do good, but that many fail to do what they should. I am not saying that God does evil, either… If your dad wrongfully beat you, God still put him in authority over you knowing he would do that to you. He gave you to him as a son for your good. That he did evil is something that he was not supposed to do, but he freely did (not saying your dad did that).

Part of the problem here is that this is very deep theological stuff. I am trying the best I can.
To understand more completly you must understand more about secondary causes.

If you don’t agree, then I am sorry, Perhaps we are just both wasting our time here.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 7/10/2005 2:17p).]

When they come up with a penalty to replace the death penalty, like "Life without parole at hard labor", then I will be against the death penalty...

I have not come to this conclusion yet, but my sister and I have had long discussions on this topic. We are both conservative politically and share many of the same views. She says that as here faith has grown, and her anti-abortion feelings have strengthened, he support of the death penalty could not be reconciled.

One event which caused her to rethink this was the Terri Schaivo escapade. How could she be appalled that the government would do nothing to stop an innocent woman from starving to death, yet condone the taking of life with the death penalty.

Interestingly, I also have a friend from school who is a bog liberal, especially in the area of animal rights. She is also staunchly anti-abortion. She could not reconcile being for the protection of animal life, and not for the protection of human life.

Just two tales of consistency regardless of political ideology.

Sarge, there is a difference between protecting innocent life and protecting the life of an evil murderer. Unborn children have not taken anybodies life. Terri Shiavo had not murdered anybody. There is no consistency in comparing fighting for a murderers life to that of fighting for the life of innocents. Comparing fighting for these people's lives to the life of an evil murderer is absurd. If you go down this road you then should start fighting for the life of cows and chickens. They are after all life. And if these people in your stories are truly consistent then they will also fight for the right of animals to not lose their lives as well. Then of course you must include all life.....

If we as a society pass the buck on taking responsibility for protection from evil that will harm us we have nobody to blame but ourselves when those that are evil molest and rape our children. We feel so self-righteous that we don't want to make the necessary decisions to stop evil. However when it is our family that gets hurt you can bet your bottom dollar your tune will change. I liken this problem to a tragically prevalient attitude that has befallen our society where we don't do anything unless it effects us directly. Until that point, it just is not worth it to get our hands dirty. And we wonder why our society is going to pot. And these killers know it too. Just like the 17 year old boy who told his friends that killing and raping the b^tch in that house was no problem even if they got caught since the law said they could not be put to death if they were minors. Guess what, he got off as a minor. WE, have allowed the criminals to have no fear of our justice system by becoming complacent and by no longer using common sense.

[This message has been edited by Aggie_Fanatic (edited 7/14/2005 1:11a).]

And if they really want consistency then they should be against the use of force on anybody, even in self-defense. After all, what is the difference between taking someones life who may or may not murder you or someone else and someone who already has murdered? If consistency of not taking life is all that is that important then the taking of life for any reason is out, no matter the consequence. Can you imagine how many criminals lives could be spared if we did not allow our police officers to ever use deadly force? Sure, we may need to replace our police officers quite frequently. However, for the sake of not taking someones life, what is the loss of some officers lives?

Acts 25
10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.

11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.

Paul was willing to suffer the penalty of death if he had committed a wrong that was worthy of death.

i am %100 against the death penalty. i just don't believe that we have the right to kill someone based on their crime. when they die, God will give them justice. now they should be locked up in a MAXIMUM prison, but i just don't believe that we can decide who lives and who dies. also, as good as our jury system is, mistakes can happen. just a personal belief

Though some may disagree, I still do believe in the death penalty. What would you want to do with Osama if we caught him?

But how can we possibly know that osama meant to kill innocent people. Oh how can we make that call. Gee, maybe he really is not a bad guy at all. And Hitler probably likes Jews too. It is just so fuzzy. They are either wonderful people you would love to have babysitting your kids or they are evil, hmmmm.

Yeah and that evil caused thousands of innocent lives to be taken away! Osama was responsible for 9/11 and if caught he should have to face the death penalty!

bballaggie06, I was being sarcastic.

I am of the opinion that many people choose to hide from our responsibility to use the ability God gave us to discern Good from Evil. What I believe some people do not grasp is that you do not have to hate an evil person to put them to death. If an evil person is killing innocent people at will then they should be put to death to protect society. Putting people in a maximum security jail just does not do it today. There are too many evil people and too many ways for them to get out based on loopholes or badly written laws. We have a responsiblity to protect our children from the evil of society. If we do not want to because we cannot handle that responsibility then we have no business being parents. There is just way too much evil out there being set free because some boneheads don't think they need to be kept in prison for us to ignore that the death penalty is necessary. I have said it before and I will again: When it is your baby that is brutally raped/molested, mentally brutalized, and treated like a dog, then murdered, you will change your minds about thinking we cannot make this call. Or maybe when it is your husband/wife holding your 9 month old baby while sitting on a plane that is flown into one of the twin towers you will understand. God did not create us to be naive nor stupid.

I would think that if there is any doubt, then the death penalty should be out of the question. of course, in texas, life without parole was not an option for many juries, so they were left the unenviable task of deciding that a murderer might someday be let free.

i would think that a christian would accept the government's sanction of the death penalty, as it is "caesar's law" but fight against it on a personal level.

i mean, what it is besides revenge anyhow? is not life in prison without parole a sufficient protection of society?@and would that not give the killer a longer time to create and cultivate a meaningful relationship with God and Jesus and fully atone for their sins? and would that not allow you to pray for their souls longer? I mean, you can't possibly not pity a murderer, right? you DO want them to be forgiven by God, right? you DO want to pray for them, right? is vengeance a christian trait?

Self-preservation does not equate vengence. Vengence would be doing to the person exactly what they did to the victim. Death in most cases is actually quite humane.


And we are actually quite full of ourselves if we think we can stop someone from knowing Christ. If they are going to be saved they will, we cannot stop that.

In Mosaic law, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth actually existed to put LIMITS on punishment - -in other words -- you can not put someone to death for stealing a loaf of bread. But Jesus fulfilled the law and I think his "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" supercedes the law.

If we had only the option of letting a murderer have a short sentence or killing them, then perhaps our intelligence that everyone keeps talking about would be more of a factor in self-preservation. As it is, our intelligence should know that we can give them life sentences (or 4 of them as Eric Rudolph just got) and not have to worry about breaking another tenet of Mosaic Law.. you know the one ..."Thou shalt not kill"

just my $0.02

Maybe we should just freeze them until such time as we have the ability to change their psychological make-up to a point where they are incapable of doing harm to anything. Then we can thaw them out and let them lead the wonderful happy lives that they deserve.

now that's what i call creative correction.

Thanks for clearing it up Fanatic! I agree with you 100%!

well that's 2 geniuses in favor of cryogenics--it's no wonder the world's problems can't be solved with intelligent thought and kneejerk insight like this idea...you might try actually thinking before you speak. wise people recommend it.