Church fathers on Interpretation and Perspicuity of Scripture

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Notafraid
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"Everyone who reads the sacred scriptures, both former and latter, in both covenants, and reads with persuasion, will learn and teach. But if he strives about anything that he does not understand, his mind does not receive teaching. But if he finds words that are too difficult for him, and he does not understand their force, let him say thus, 'Whatsoever is written is written well, but I have not attained to the understanding of it.' And if he shall ask about the matters that are too hard for him of wise and discerning men who inquire into doctrine, then, when ten wise men shall speak to him in ten different ways about one matter, let him accept that which pleases him; and if any please not him, let him not scorn the sages; for the word of God is like a pearl, that has a beautiful appearance on whatever side you turn it. And remember, O disciple, what David said, From all my teachers have I learned. And the Apostle said:-Thou readest every Scripture that is in the Spirit of God. And prove everything; hold fast that which is good; and flee from every evil thing. For if the days of a man should be many as all the days of the world from Adam to the end of the ages, and he should sit and meditate upon the Holy Scriptures, he would not comprehend all the force of the depth of the words." Aphrahat (Demonstrations, 22:26)

"For thus doth our faith teach, that is, the true, the right Catholic faith, gathered not by the opinion of private judgment, but by the witness of the Scriptures, not subject to the fluctuations of heretical rashness, but grounded on Apostolic truth: this we know, this we believe." Augustine (Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament, 2:2)

"But many in these times, even when they come to church, do not know what is read; whereas the eunuch, even in public (ep agoras) and riding in his chariot, applied himself to the reading of the Scriptures. Not so you: none takes the Bible in hand: nay, everything rather than the Bible. Say, what are the Scriptures for? For as much as in you lies, it is all undone. What is the Church for? Tie up the Bibles: perhaps the judgment would not be such, not such the punishment: if one were to bury them in dung, that he might not hear them, he would not so insult them as you do now. For say, what is the insult there? That the man has buried them. And what here? That we do not hear them. Say, when is a person most insulted - when he is silent, and one makes no answer, or, when he does speak and is unheeded? So that the insult is greater in the present case, when He does speak and thou wilt not hear: greater the contempt." John Chrysostom (Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, 19)

God, then, is One, without violation of the majesty of the eternal Trinity, as is declared in the instance set before us. And not in that place alone do we see the Trinity expressed in the Name of the Godhead; but both in many places, as we have said also above, and especially in the epistles which the Apostle wrote to the Thessalonians, he most clearly set forth the Godhead and sovereignty of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit....But if you require the plain statement of the words in which Scripture has spoken of the Spirit as Lord, it cannot have escaped you that it is written: 'Now the Lord is the Spirit.' Which the course of the whole passage shows to have been certainly said of the Holy Spirit....So he not only called the Spirit Lord, but also added: 'But where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. So we all with unveiled face, reflecting the glory of the Lord, are formed anew into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord the Spirit;' that is, we who have been before converted to the Lord, so as by spiritual understanding to see the glory of the Lord, as it were, in the mirror of the Scriptures, are now being transformed from that glory which converted us to the Lord, to the heavenly glory." - Ambrose (On the Holy Spirit, 3:14:94, 3:14:101-102)

”But they [the scriptures] were written by unlearned and ignorant ripen, and should not therefore be readily believed. See that this be not rather a stronger reason for believing that they have not been adulterated by any false statements, but were put forth by men of simple mind, who knew not how to trick out their tales with meretricious ornaments. But the language is mean and vulgar. For truth never seeks deceitful polish, nor in that which is well ascertained and certain does it allow itself to be led away into excessive prolixity. Syllogisms, enthymemes, definitions, and all those ornaments by which men seek to establish their statements, aid those groping for the truth, but do not clearly mark its great features. But he who really knows the subject under discussion, neither defines, nor deduces, nor seeks the other tricks of words by which an audience is wont to be taken in, and to be beguiled into a forced assent to a proposition. Your narratives, my opponent says, are overrun with barbarisms and solecisms, and disfigured by monstrous blunders. A censure, truly, which shows a childish and petty spirit; for if we allow that it is reasonable, let us cease to use certain kinds of fruit because they grow with *****les on them, and other growths useless for food, which on the one hand cannot support us, and yet do not on the other hinder us from enjoying that which specially excels, and which nature has designed to be most wholesome for us. For how, I pray you, does it interfere with or retard the comprehension of a statement, whether anything be pronounced smoothly or with uncouth roughness?" - Arnobius (Against the Heathen, 1:58-59)

"It is plain then from the above that the Scriptures declare the Son's eternity; it is equally plain from what follows that the Arian phrases 'He was not,' and 'before' and 'when,' are in the same Scriptures predicated of creatures." Athanasius (Four Discourses Against the Arians, 1:4:13)

"For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,--to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages." - Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 2:9)

"For this reason, where they cannot interpret them [the scriptures] otherwise according to their own sentence, be it ever so clear and manifest, they answer that it is obscure and uncertain because wrong and perverse they dare not call it." - Augustine (Of the Work of Monks, 10)

"For we behold and see as it were in a divine spectacle exhibited to us, the notice of our God in Trinity, conveyed to us at the river Jordan. For when Jesus came and was baptized by John, the Lord by His servant (and this He did for an example of humility; for He showeth that in this same humility is righteousness fulfilled, when as John said to Him, 'I have need to be baptized of Thee, and comest Thou to me?' He answered, 'Suffer it to be so now, that all righteousness may be fulfilled'), when He was baptized then, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Him in the form of a Dove: and then a Voice from on high followed, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.' Here then we have the Trinity in a certain sort distinguished. The Father in the Voice,-the Son in the Man,-the Holy Spirit in the Dove. It was only needful just to mention this, for most obvious is it to see. For the notice of the Trinity is here conveyed to us plainly and without leaving room for doubt or hesitation. For the Lord Christ Himself coming in the form of a servant to John, is doubtlessly the Son: for it cannot be said that it was the Father, or the Holy Spirit. 'Jesus,' it is said, 'cometh;' that is, the Son of God. And who hath any doubt about the Dove? or who saith, 'What is the Dove?' when the Gospel itself most plainly testifieth, 'The Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove.' And in like manner as to that voice there can be no doubt that it is the Father's, when He saith, 'Thou art My Son.' Thus then we have the Trinity distinguished." Augustine (Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament, 2:1)

"The sacred Scriptures they have boldly falsified, and the canons of the ancient faith they have rejected, and Christ they have ignored, not inquiring what the sacred Scriptures say, but laboriously seeking to discover what form of syllogism might be contrived to establish their impiety. And should any one lay before them a word of divine Scripture, they examine whether it will make a connected or disjoined form of syllogism; and leaving the Holy Scriptures of God, they study geometry, as men who are of the earth, and speak of the earth, and are ignorant of Him who cometh from above. Euclid, indeed, is laboriously measured by some of them; and Aristotle and Theophrastus are admired; and Galen, forsooth, is perhaps even worshipped by some of them. But as to those men who abuse the arts of the unbelievers to establish their own heretical doctrine, and by the craft of the impious adulterate the simple faith of the divine Scriptures, what need is there to say that these are not near the faith? For this reason is it they have boldly laid their hands upon the divine Scriptures, alleging that they have corrected them." Gaius (Fragments of Caius, 2:3).

For that there is a Word of God, and a Spirit of God, powers essentially subsisting, both creative of whatever has come into being, and comprehensive of things that exist, is shown in the clearest light out of the Divinely-inspired Scriptures." Gregory of Nyssa (The Great Catechism, 4)

"For there have risen many who have given to the plain words of Holy Writ some arbitrary interpretation of their own, instead of its true and only sense, and this in defiance of the clear meaning of words. Heresy lies in the sense assigned, not in the word written; the guilt is that of the expositor, not of the text." - Hilary of Poitiers (On the Trinity, 2:3)

"A sound mind, and one which does not expose its possessor to danger, and is devoted to piety and the love of truth, will eagerly meditate upon those things which God has placed within the power of mankind, and has subjected to our knowledge, and will make advancement in acquaintance with them, rendering the knowledge of them easy to him by means of daily study. These things are such as fall plainly under our observation, and are clearly and unambiguously in express terms set forth in the Sacred Scriptures....the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels, can be clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously understood by all" - Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 2:27:1-2)

"All things are dear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain." John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Thessalonians, 3, v. 5)

"Pay attention, therefore, to what I shall record out of the holy Scriptures, which do not need to be expounded, but only listened to." - Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 55)

"For, being accustomed to sweet and polished speeches or poems, they despise the simple and common language of the sacred writings as mean. For they seek that which may soothe the senses. But whatever is pleasant to the ear effects persuasion, and while it delights fixes itself deeply within the breast. Is God, therefore, the contriver both of the mind, and of the voice, and of the tongue, unable to speak eloquently? Yea, rather, with the greatest foresight, He wished those things which are divine to be without adornment, that all might understand the things which He Himself spoke to all." - Lactantius (Divine Institutes, 6:21)

"What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work [the gospel of John], though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears? What shall we say of this work? He who is accurately to apprehend what it contains should be able to say with truth, 'We have the mind of Christ, that we may know those things which are bestowed on us by God.'" Origen (Commentary on the Gospel of John, 1:6)

"Now this is our answer to his allegations, and our defence of the truths contained in Christianity, that if any one were to come from the study of Grecian opinions and usages to the Gospel, he would not only decide that its doctrines were true, but would by practice establish their truth, and supply whatever seemed wanting, from a Grecian point of view, to their demonstration, and thus confirm the truth of Christianity. We have to say, moreover, that the Gospel has a demonstration of its own, more divine than any established by Grecian dialectics. And this diviner method is called by the apostle the 'manifestation of the Spirit and of power:' of 'the Spirit,' on account of the prophecies, which are sufficient to produce faith in any one who reads them" Origen (Against Celsus, 1:2)

"Observe now the difference between the fine phrases of Plato respecting the 'chief good,' and the declarations of our prophets regarding the 'light' of the blessed; and notice that the truth as it is contained in Plato concerning this subject did not at all help his readers to attain to a pure worship of God, nor even himself, who could philosophize so grandly about the 'chief good,' whereas the simple language of the holy Scriptures has led to their honest readers being filled with a divine spirit" Origen (Against Celsus, 6:5)

"Holy Scripture clearly teaches us both natures [of Christ]." Theodoret (Letter 99)

"We shall therefore endeavor to persuade Arius to acknowledge the substance of the Holy Trinity, and we shall adduce proofs of this position from Holy Scripture." Theodoret (Dialogues, 2)

"And why should I recount the multitude of prophets, who are numerous, and said ten thousand things consistently and harmoniously? For those who desire it, can, by reading what they uttered, accurately understand the truth, and no longer be carried away by opinion and profitless labour....Moreover, it is said that among your writers there were prophets and prognosticators, and that those wrote accurately: who were informed by them. How much more, then, shall we know the truth who are instructed by the holy prophets, who were possessed by the Holy Spirit of God! On this account all the prophets spoke harmoniously and in agreement with one another, and foretold the things that would come to pass in all the world. For the very accomplishment of predicted and already consummated events should demonstrate to those who are fond of information, yea rather, who are lovers of truth, that those things are really true which they declared concerning the epochs and eras before the deluge" Theophilus of Antioch (Theophilus to Autolycus, 2:35, 3:17)
Redstone
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It's always an excellent idea to read what the Church fathers had to say.

Here are some selections that would add to an argument that sola scriptura is incorrect.

All scripture is inspired [Greek: theopneustos God breathed] by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

This is perhaps the best verse for sola scriptura in the Bible. For sola scriptura to be true, Scripture must be sufficient to settle all doctrinal disputes and quandaries. The above verse doesn't even imply that.

Scripture, which is God inspired, doesn't settle disputes and quandaries - not even close. The Church fathers understood this.

Although the followers of Luther and Calvin et al. must preach the doctrine of private judgment to ensure their own right to interpret Scripture, they must prohibit the exercise of this right to others, lest their group be torn apart by strife. It is the failure to prohibit the right of private judgment that has resulted in the over twenty thousand Christian Protestant denominations listed in the Oxford University Press World Christian Encyclopedia.

Some divisions:
What kind of faith saves? Is baptism necessary? Is it needed? Is it for infants? Can one lose salvation? How? Can it be gotten back? How? Is the Real Presence true? Are spiritual gifts like tongues and healing for today? For everyone? What about predestination? What about free will? What about church government?

The Church fathers:

St. Irenaeus writes as if he was anticipating proto-Protestants:

"When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition...It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture or tradition" (Against Heresies 3,2:1).

"Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?" (Against Heresies 3,4:1).

Error of doctrine in the churches must necessarily have produced various issues. When, however, that which is deposited among many is found to be one and the same, it is not the result of error, but of tradition. Can any one, then, be reckless enough to say that they were in error who handed on the tradition" (Prescription against the Heretics,28).

St. Gregory of Nyssa (c.A.D. 335-394), brother of St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Catholic Church and bishop of Nyssa:

"[F]or it is enough for proof of our statement, that the TRADITION has come down to us from our fathers, handed on, like some inheritance, by succession from the apostles and the saints who came after them. They, on the other hand, who change their doctrines to this novelty, would need the support of arguments in abundance, if they were about to bring over to their views, not men light as dust, and unstable, but men of weight and steadiness: but so long as their statement is advanced without being established, and without being proved, who is so foolish and so brutish as to account the teaching of the evangelists and apostles, and of those who have successively shone like lights in the churches, of less force than this undemonstrated nonsense?" (Against Eunomius,4:6).

St. Basil the Great (A.D. 329-379), Doctor of the Catholic Church, bishop of Caesarea, and brother St. Gregory of Nyssa:

"Of the dogmas and kergymas preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the Apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in manners ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject the unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the Gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce kergyma to a mere term" (Holy Spirt 27:66).

More tomorrow...
Notafraid
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quote:

Although the followers of Luther and Calvin et al. must preach the doctrine of private judgment to ensure their own right to interpret Scripture, they must prohibit the exercise of this right to others, lest their group be torn apart by strife. It is the failure to prohibit the right of private judgment that has resulted in the over twenty thousand Christian Protestant denominations listed in the Oxford University Press World Christian Encyclopedia.



These people are full of it… Look here at the WCOF… This is a Calvinist Document…

quote:
X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.[24]

III. It belongs to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his Church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same; which decrees and determinations, if consonant to the Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission; not only for their agreement with the Word, but also for teh power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God appointed thereunto in His Word.[4]




Does that look like it matches what the University Press World Christian Encyclopedia said?


The long and the short of it is, I didn’t post this stuff so you could go get some stuff to post against it. You believe whatever you want… I am giving you the info in this post as a freeby to help you understand what kind of BS some your sources are, but I don’t want to waste my time trying to help you understand, if your only interested in whatever you think gives you the upper hand.
Redstone
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na,

This is what frustrates myself and other posters (I will assume from posts over the past two months especially) about you. Why does this immediately have to turn semi-personal??

"You believe whatever you want"
"what kind of BS some your sources are"
"waste my time trying to help you understand"
"you think gives you the upper hand"

and so on. Let's stick to the topic at hand...please....

Honestly, I want to post about the topic, about religion in general....not gain the "upper hand"....
Notafraid
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I don’t think you understand. I am not interested in the conversation! I was explaining why. The reason why, is YOU.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/12/2005 11:59p).]
Redstone
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Okay. Too bad - its an excellent topic.

And this is, um, an internet forum. Perhaps you should have put a (not for Redstone) addition in the title?
titan
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The conversation may be dead, but let it be for the right reason.

Something has been severely misread.

Redstone said:
quote:
Scripture, which is God inspired, doesn't settle disputes and quandaries - not even close. The Church fathers understood this.

Although the followers of Luther and Calvin et al. must preach the doctrine of private judgment to ensure their own right to interpret Scripture, they must prohibit the exercise of this right to others, lest their group be torn apart by strife. It is the failure to prohibit the right of private judgment that has resulted in the over twenty thousand Christian Protestant denominations listed in the Oxford University Press World Christian Encyclopedia.


Notafraid said:
quote:
These people are full of it… Look here at the WCOF… This is a Calvinist Document…

...Does that look like it matches what the University Press World Christian Encyclopedia said?


The University Press mention is simply citing the listing of the number of Protestant denominations.

Redstone's quote you responded to is NOT quoted from the Encylopedia. (or if it is, its unattributed). Its his own conclusion apparently, just invoking a source quote for the number of denominations. It's an opinion if I am not mistaken.
titan
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Calling the cite a BS source is what was taken as `semi-personal'.

But the conclusion the source was BS was itself an innocent mistake. The source is likely to be right about the number of denoms, which is what it was mentioned in context of.

Unless that whole paragraph is indeed quoted from it, but I read that as Redstone's postulation?
Notafraid
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Redstone

quote:

And this is, um, an internet forum. Perhaps you should have put a (not for Redstone) addition in the title?


You asked me for the quotes.. I gave them to you, then you began to wage war… I am simply Not interested in getting into this stuff with you, mostly for the reasons I cited, as well as my past experience with you.
Notafraid
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Titan,

You are totally off track with what you think the problem is.
titan
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Notafraid,

quote:
You are totally off track with what you think the problem is


I respectfully submit that it is a bit of precisely that reading-between-lines stuff in assumptions that is causing some of the trouble.

Your response was clearly to that part of his post, not the others, and that seemed worth pointing out in case the thread could go on. If you 1140 was complaining about the other cites and connecting to past experience, then I withdraw the observation.
Redstone
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titan,
Thanks for your posts. It seems straight-forward to me, but my postulation was the source has x number of entries for Protestant denominations. That is a number I have read in the past, the sort that sticks with you. If its off in reality by 10,000 or 15,000, or whatever, the larger point still very much holds.

na,
I was interested in the quotes, told you so, you provided them, told me you had on the other thread, why in the world would you expect me not to engage?? Good grief.

"Wage war" ??? What are you talking about?? How about post? Its what this board is all about, unless it gets sidetracked with near-insane back and forth like this.
Notafraid
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Titan,

quote:

Your response was clearly to that part of his post, not the others,


That jumped right off the page at me, but as I answered it, I realized who I was posting to, the way he works, and thinks, and I gave the little speech at the bottom and bailed out.

quote:

and that seemed worth pointing out in case the thread could go on.


As well it could. I have no problem with that, just not me arguing with him. Not until he changes.
Redstone
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Laughable & absurd.

You are the *only* person I have ever had a "conflict" with in 5 years of texags, exluding the obvious tongue-in-cheek/smiley face ones on Enertainment or something.

How about some links to my naughty internet behavior so people can decide for themselves, if anyone cares?

edit: and what I was referring to with the word semi-personal were the phrases:
"You believe whatever you want"
"what kind of BS some your sources are"
"waste my time trying to help you understand"
"you think gives you the upper hand"

[This message has been edited by Redstone (edited 5/13/2005 12:52a).]
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