Alpha, let me ask you a the question above so I can clarify your intended question.

First, because I love God I want to be obedient to his will.

I think you are saying nothing really happens when a believer, in faith submits to immersion for the remission of sins.

I believe remission of sins does happen when one yields to the command of baptism. I find no other way in the Bible to "wash sins away", so I will yield and do believe it essential to salvation. Jesus said it was essential. "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved."

To fit you model you would say "believe and not be baptized and you will be saved".

I would be listening to the wrong Alpha and Omega then wouldn't I? Or maybe you have a revelation not found in scripture, or you are one who just knows, or maybe someone taught you improperly or not at all. That is why I asked the question.

Lorena, just jabbing you back bud.

The difference between your statement and mine would be the difference between you SHOULD and SHALL.

I'll stick with the Bible and the word is always a command type word, not an option word like should. There ain't no should in regards to baptism in ALL the Bible. It is not optional. You can't provide a verse says otherwise. If you can please do so I can be corrected.

Dunker,

quote:

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That is not to say the Holy Spirit isn't with you at all times before then.

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Why would you want to speculate... and no where in the Bible does it show another way to have sins remissed/removed/washed away than at baptism. There is one baptism and it take place at a particular time and that time is in the water.

I John 5 the water, blood and spirit are in agreement...

1. If you weren't baptized into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then what were you baptized into? Matthew 28:18-19

2. If baptism is where the INTO happens what other way do you have into Christ?

3. If you weren't baptized for the remission of sins, then what were you baptized for? Acts 2:38

4. If you don't show acceptance of what Peter preached about Christ with baptism why don't you believe Peter? Acts 2:38-41 3,000 were baptized that day

5. If you weren't clothed with Christ in baptism, then what are you wearing? Galatians 3:27

6. If you don’t have the pledge of a good conscience of God in baptism, what pledge (appeal for a good conscience NASB) do you have?1 Peter 3:21

7. If you haven't been buried with Christ is baptism, can you expect to be raised with him? Colossians 2:12

8. If you haven't been baptized, "what are you waiting for get up and wash away your sins..." Acts 22:16
If you think your sins were washed away at a time other than at baptism, then when why do you scripturally think that? Scripture please…

1. If you weren't baptized into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then what were you baptized into? Matthew 28:18-19


Into Christ. I was baptized in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

See Romans 6, and various other places in the NT.


2. If baptism is where the INTO happens what other way do you have into Christ?

It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit into Christ that saves us, not the physical application of the beggarly elements themselves.

Titus 3:5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


See how Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE he received the sign?

Romans 4:11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

It is the same in the New Covenant.


3. If you weren't baptized for the remission of sins, then what were you baptized for? Acts 2:38

I was baptised into Christ by the Spirit. He is my salvation, and my life.


John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

If the Spirit baptizes whom He wishes, and He comes and goes when and where He wishes, then the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something that we can by definition not call down to a specific moment and time. So, it is that baptism of the Holy Spirit that is the REAL baptism. The water is a sign and a seal of the righteousness we have in Christ. It is the engrafting into Christ through baptism whereby my sins are remitted. The application of the beggarly elements do not themselves constitute the invisible spiritual reality, nor is God even obligated to bring the reality upon a baptized person, as if it is some kind of incantation called down upon them.


4. If you don't show acceptance of what Peter preached about Christ with baptism why don't you believe Peter? Acts 2:38-41 3,000 were baptized that day

Why don’t you believe Him. He says the promise is for believers children as well… Do they have the promise, and yet not the sign?

5. If you weren't clothed with Christ in baptism, then what are you wearing? Galatians 3:27

I was and am clothed in Christ at baptism. You don’t understand that the sacrament is the outward, and visible representation of the spiritual reality. Why do you proceed to judge and condemn me as if I have stated that I was not clothed with Christ by my baptism into Him, when you have in fact never even actually asked me what my position is on that?


6. If you don’t have the pledge of a good conscience of God in baptism, what pledge (appeal for a good conscience NASB) do you have?1 Peter 3:21


There you go again… Ask first, then you can judge and condemn me…


7. If you haven't been buried with Christ is baptism, can you expect to be raised with him? Colossians 2:12

Ditto on this one too…


8. If you haven't been baptized, "what are you waiting for get up and wash away your sins..." Acts 22:16

I don’t know of any Christian, ever in my entire life who has not been baptized. You have raised the specter of this lie more than once in your years on this board, and I have to question the integrity of your motives, when you continually spout this accusation as if it is some kind of truth when it has been answered again and again.

Where do you get off spouting accusations like this? And you had better not ignore or dodge it this time as you have done in the past.

quote:

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If you think your sins were washed away at a time other than at baptism, then when why do you scripturally think that? Scripture please…

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I think they were when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit as Jesus came to do!



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/4/2005 8:44p).]

The not afraid title was to attract you and how ever wanted to speak to these fair questions.
If you weren't baptized into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then what were you baptized into? Matthew 28:18-19

Into Christ. I was baptized in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Right, we were “out of” and came into Christ at baptism. There is no other way described.
See Romans 6, and various other places in the NT.


2. If baptism is where the INTO happens what other way do you have into Christ?

quote:

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It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit into Christ that saves us, not the physical application of the beggarly elements themselves.
Titus 3:5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

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Do you not accept that the Holy Spirit is present in conjunction with the water of baptism at the time a believer submits to the command of baptism?

quote:

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See how Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE he received the sign?

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Yes I do! He obeyed God’s commandments as God stated them.


Romans 4:11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

It is the same in the New Covenant.


3. If you weren't baptized for the remission of sins, then what were you baptized for? Acts 2:38

quote:

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I was baptised into Christ by the Spirit. He is my salvation, and my life.

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In water you were baptized into Christ by the Spirit?


John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

If the Spirit baptizes whom He wishes, and He comes and goes when and where He wishes, then the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something that we can by definition not call down to a specific moment and time. So, it is that baptism of the Holy Spirit that is the REAL baptism. The water is a sign and a seal of the righteousness we have in Christ. It is the engrafting into Christ through baptism whereby my sins are remitted. The application of the beggarly elements do not themselves constitute the invisible spiritual reality, nor is God even obligated to bring the reality upon a baptized person, as if it is some kind of incantation called down upon them.
The Bible doesn’t say what you just said. You run to you own understanding every time. You will even ignore specific moments in time. Of which are vastly important and can be known. You just want to gray out specifics and call it spirit, kinda Gnostic like. There is no reason to do this if you base your reason only on God’s Word.
Naaman knew when he was healed after dipping in the Jordan.
The 3,000 knew when they were added to the number of the saved.
Paul knew exactly when his sins were washed away.
In Romans 6 we know when we were raised to walk in a new life.
Christ’s birth was a huge event, Christ baptism was a huge event, Christ death was a huge event, and the resurrection is the center marking of the Universe.
You know the time and date of your wedding, now you might not know when you fell in love.

quote:

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So, it is that baptism of the Holy Spirit that is the REAL baptism.

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Not at all. If it is then why do we have the example of Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit and THEN being baptized into Christ? Why do we have the example of disciples already preaching Christ being baptized, then hands being laid on them and they receive “Holy Spirit”.
Baptism in water, by faith, by a believer submitting to the will of God has assurance of their sins being washed away and being added to the church at that moment in time. Read Acts 2
Why do you separate baptism and the saving work of the Holy Spirit? The Bible doesn’t. I agree God is not obliged to do anything. The application of water is commanded, and it is the element in which the agent comes. I find it similar to communion, just because some one eats unleavened bread on Sunday morning doesn’t mean they are in communion with God. Faith is required.
A called Incarnation, not at all…

4. If you don't show acceptance of what Peter preached about Christ with baptism why don't you believe Peter? Acts 2:38-41 3,000 were baptized that day

Why don’t you believe Him. He says the promise is for believers children as well… Do they have the promise, and yet not the sign?
As is clear by scripture, Faith must be involved, it is not merely a sign that you presuppose it is. What about all those who are far off, what about their sign? The promise is for them, and all nations just as God promised Abraham. This was a new teaching and it began in Jerusalem.

5. If you weren't clothed with Christ in baptism, then what are you wearing? Galatians 3:27

quote:

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I was and am clothed in Christ at baptism. You don’t understand that the sacrament is the outward, and visible representation of the spiritual reality. Why do you proceed to judge and condemn me as if I have stated that I was not clothed with Christ by my baptism into Him, when you have in fact never even actually asked me what my position is on that?

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I do not condemn you! I am questioning you and find you answers different from what scripture teaches. How can you know you were clothed when you don’t when you put them on? How can you say your sins were washed away when you don’t know when.

6. If you don’t have the pledge of a good conscience of God in baptism, what pledge (appeal for a good conscience NASB) do you have?1 Peter 3:21

quote:

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There you go again… Ask first, then you can judge and condemn me…

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It is a question?

7. If you haven't been buried with Christ in baptism, can you expect to be raised with him? Colossians 2:12

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Ditto on this one too…

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It is still a question, I’d answer it with a shout of joy because of what Christ has done for me.

8. If you haven't been baptized, "what are you waiting for get up and wash away your sins..." Acts 22:16

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I don’t know of any Christian, ever in my entire life who has not been baptized. You have raised the specter of this lie more than once in your years on this board, and I have to question the integrity of your motives, when you continually spout this accusation as if it is some kind of truth when it has been answered again and again.

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You just don’t know when they (or you) were baptized? Hey, that’s your definition of baptism not scripture’s definition. The Eunuch knew when he came up out of the water that he was freed from sin.

quote:

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Where do you get off spouting accusations like this? And you had better not ignore or dodge it this time as you have done in the past.

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How dare someone question you and your faith? Your salvation? Your practices? Why not take it as a blessing and count it pure joy?
If some one “baptizes” an infant it is NOT scriptural baptism. That statement is based solely on Command and Example found in scripture. Weaving circumcision literally into who is a candidate for baptism is a flat misunderstanding of the Gospel. You call it an “interpretation”.
Truth stands up to questioning and scripture placed in the right context, and that is rightly divided.

quote:

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If you think your sins were washed away at a time other than at baptism, then when why do you scripturally think that? Scripture please…
”I think they were when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit as Jesus came to do!”

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Then do you believe a baby’s “sins” are wash away at the “sacrament” of baptism or later? You must say later… or you must say there are 2 baptisms still working…
Denominations have invented the “sacrament” of baptism to fit there presupposed doctrines. You continue the specter of this lie, and I do NOT question you motive, but you have been lied to.

Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

quote:

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You know the time and date of your wedding, now you might not know when you fell in love.

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I for one found this to be very profound. Your love for your spouse grows both before and after the wedding, but the wedding is the point of commitment and spiritual union. Likewise, your love for Christ grows both before and after baptism, but the baptism is the point of commitment and spiritual union.

BTW, I am not trying to opine one way or the other on infant baptism. I was merely moved by the quote above.

i really dont feel that baptism is the point of commitment. at least not for all people. most people including myself were baptised at a very young age, in which we had a godparent speak for us. at that young of an age it is hard to make/understand such a great commitment.

Do you remember when Jesus sent demons into a herd of swine and they ran into the water?

Well, when the swine came out of the water on the other side, they put up the first Church of Christ sign right there.

TxAgg07,

I view infant baptism as similar to arranged marriage. Whether you or your family decides, it is a moment of commitment.

That is not a knock on infant baptism. Arranged marriages have a much lower divorce rate, and I am sure the same is true with infant baptisms.

quote:

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You know the time and date of your wedding, now you might not know when you fell in love

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I know both. While it may be unusual, it hit me like a bolt of lightning. I even said out loud, "Oh no...I'm in love with you."

You are asking all of the wrong questions.

1) Do you believe in Jesus and want to follow his example?

2) Then why would you not be baptized?

I have known many people who believed themselves to be followers of Christ who have never followed his example of being immersed into water. I don't know why.

quote:

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I really dont feel that baptism is the point of commitment. at least not for all people. most people including myself were baptised at a very young age, in which we had a godparent speak for us. at that young of an age it is hard to make/understand such a great commitment.

---

Can you see there is just no example of that in scripture. I am not judging you, just scripture. You didn't make a commitment did you. You would let someone speak for you as an adult would you?

Was it a pledge between you and God? Was it for the forgiveness of sins? Was it to clothe you in Christ?

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 5/10/2005 9:50a).]

Lorena,

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Do you remember when Jesus sent demons into a herd of swine and they ran into the water?

Well, when the swine came out of the water on the other side, they put up the first Church of Christ sign right there.

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Amazing, the contempt you show for baptism as defined by scripture.

You also show your lack of scriptural knowledge in that they didn't come out of the water.

(I do get the humor attempt though)

Are you able to address the questions?

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 5/10/2005 10:00a).]

ramblin, back this up with scripture

quote:

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I view infant baptism as similar to arranged marriage. Whether you or your family decides, it is a moment of commitment.

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Seems made up by you unless you show scripture. If you don't see scripture as governing then do as you like.

AgGermany,

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Seems made up by you unless you show scripture.

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That is the reason I said "I view" and not "Scripture says". I do not practice infant baptism, but I do not have a problem with people who do.

It is also my view that some things are neither commanded nor condemned by scripture either implicitly or explicitly. I will not argue with people over these things, because I have nothing to stand on.

Germany, oh I think "believers" baptism is taught in Scripture but baptism does not save only Jesus Christ can do that! Only God can regenerate the heart and it is by and through that mercy that we are then able to repent and be baptized. Baptism is a very important part of a Christian's life but please don't equate such action to the mercy of the Father! You don't really believe that only those immersed in baptism spend eternity with the Father or do you?

AgGermany,

Lighten up dude and don't assume I have contempt for baptism. I was baptized like most every other Christian I have ever met and I believe all born again Christians should be baptized.

I also know the swine did not come out of the water, the purpose of my post was purely humor. (You know, we had our dunking, now we're clean-- just humor)

I have posted my thoughts in this forum before about this subject and do not feel it is necessary to rehash old ground with you. Have a great day!!

I believe that if Jesus thought it was mandatory to be an example and get baptised, even though he was sinless, then it should be for us as well. I personally believe upon baptism you recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is not to say the Holy Spirit isn't with you at all times before then.

ttt

Germany, you know little of what you speak. Sure, you yap alot, but in the end you're just making noise.

quote:

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First, because I love God I want to be obedient to his will.

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The CofC folks are the only ones that want to be obedient to God? What an absurd statement!

quote:

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I believe remission of sins does happen when one yields to the command of baptism. I find no other way in the Bible to "wash sins away", so I will yield and do believe it essential to salvation. Jesus said it was essential. "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved."

---

With this short little paragraph you have destroyed the context of the entire New Testament. Believe, believe, believe and you will be saved. Jesus told us to believe and be baptized. And we should, but baptism does not wash away the sins, Christ does! You and yours take a couple of verses and then try to destroy the mercy and grace of our Savior with those hand-picked verses. You use His Word to condemn others, the reality is just the opposite. His Word exposes your theology as lies and distortions.

quote:

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To fit you model you would say "believe and not be baptized and you will be saved".

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It's not my model friend, and if you think that baptism is the EQUAL of faith in our Savior, then you are advocating a totally different gospel! And you demand everyone show you the Scriptures. Well friend, that's exactly what you should do, start with Matthew Chapter 1 and don't stop until you see Revelation 22:21. If you still feel the same way about God's Grace through His Son, then read 'em through AGAIN! It may take you 6 or 8 tries, but it will be well worth your time.

quote:

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First, because I love God I want to be obedient to his will.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The CofC folks are the only ones that want to be obedient to God? What an absurd statement!

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Epic straw man. You are attacking him for something he did not say. The only absurdity is in the response.

Having read both you posts and AgG's, I think you are responding to a lot that's just not there.

I haven't seen AgG say once that Christ is not the one that saves. I have seen him say obedience to Christ is important. You would agree?

Then you fire off this salvo:

quote:

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use His Word to condemn others, the reality is just the opposite. His Word exposes your theology as lies and distortions.

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Try to remember this: You disagree. But you are both seeking Him.

Heck, I need to remeber it too.

So Doc tell me how long you've been reading this guy's posts? He is stuck on the CofC position for baptism and everyone else is simply wrong. While it is probably best to ignore someone that is "always right," the guy just won't give it a rest. There is a history here friend, his "take" on "his theology" did not start with this one post. You may need to do a tad more research before you start talking about "straw men."

Bottom line, there is more than one position on baptism and all those folks use Scripture to support their position.

quote:

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Or maybe you have a revelation not found in scripture, or you are one who just knows, or maybe someone taught you improperly or not at all.

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This statement is beyond arrogant, and this guy has a history of these kind of insults. Jesus Christ washes away sin, it is not the act of baptism. Strawman? Hardly! The guy can't post without talking about his theological connection.

[This message has been edited by Alpha and Omega (edited 5/11/2005 1:25p).]

Your argument is a straw man. You are attacking him for something he did not say. I am talking about this argument, I am not talking about every argument he has ever made. Apparently you are.

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So Doc tell me how long you've been reading this guy's posts?

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Longer than you apparently think.

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There is a history here friend, his "take" on "his theology" did not start with this one post.

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Understood. Not implied in my post whatsoever.

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You may need to do a tad more research before you start talking about "straw men."

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Incorrect. You have constructed a straw man argument. If you can separate yourself from your history with AgG, you will see this.

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Bottom line, there is more than one position on baptism and all those folks use Scripture to support their position.

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I have not disputed this.

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Jesus Christ washes away sin, it is not the act of baptism.

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This is point under discussion. Read what you quoted. Read how you responded.

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Strawman? Hardly!

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Strawman.


Exactly.

Ok Doc, now that your position is on record, let's look at the quotes.

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First, because I love God I want to be obedient to his will.

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Now according to your last post you said that you have followed Germany's posts for a while. Correct? You also agree that there is more than one position on baptism and that these folks expressing those positions also use Scripture to support their theological take. Correct?

Germany inserts this:

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First, because I love God I want to be obedient to his will.

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To which I responded:

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The CofC folks are the only ones that want to be obedient to God? What an absurd statement!

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Tell me doc, do you really believe that the folks with OTHER positions on baptism don't love God and don't want to be obedient to His Will? Germany has always framed his argument on baptism as being the only correct one with everyone else disobeying God. Nope it's not an "epic straw man" at all, it's just simply the truth about Germany and his comments on baptism.

Read this entire thread and find where AgG stated that members of the church of Christ were the only ones who want to be obedient. As such, you warp this into an attack on the church of Christ

The discussion was about baptism.

When you find his assertion tha validates this:

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The CofC folks are the only ones that want to be obedient to God? What an absurd statement!

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let me know.

You are mixing your past arguments with AgG in this discussion. You put words in his mouth on this thread then attack him for saying that.

That is a straw man.

I understand that you are not responding to AgG without a history with him. This is a problem in the present argument because it deviates from the PRESENT point of contention.

Well doc, that's the whole point isn't it? That's why I mentioned the "history" connection to which you replied:

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Longer than you apparently think.

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Again, Germany has been posting the same stuff about his take on baptism for several years. His last post is consistent with his numerous previous posts on the subject, and it is no secret that he holds the CofC position to be the only correct position. So the "present point of contention" has a history doc, to ignore that history is to simply ignore the reality of the situation. I didn't put words in his mouth doc, Germany has little trouble finding the words. You call it a straw man, I call it a simple statement of his position!

Try this. Pretend you are new and read only this thread, having no exposure to any other thing at Texags. You don't have to be new to see it, but it may help you see what I'm saying.

Read only this thread.

Anyone who read this thread alone would see what I'm talking about.

If you cannot see it, then either you're being stubborn or don't know a straw man argument.

The point is, no progress will ever be made on any subject if you allow everything else to enter into a discussion on a single point.

I don't think your being intentionally obtuse, but you have a straw man argument on this thread.

You're married right? If you been married ANY length of time, you know this is true. You can not have a disagreement about everything, unless you want both parties to get nowhere, introducing past injustices or grudges or whatever.

I'm not trying to belabor this point. I'm just trying to get you to see that you are carrying over some grudge against members of the church of Christ, or AgG, or both, and it has interfered with what THIS argument is.

Show me where he has claimed in this argument what you have extended to him.

BTW, I think you are sincere. I like reading what you write. I'n not trying to pick on you, I just don't see what you have claimed to be justified by anything here.

Just try to read this apart from your history and see if it doesn't make sense.

Alpha,

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The CofC folks are the only ones that want to be obedient to God? What an absurd statement!

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You read INTO what you want to see. That is NOT what was said.

quote:

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With this short little paragraph you have destroyed the context of the entire New Testament. Believe, believe, believe and you will be saved. Jesus told us to believe and be baptized. And we should, but baptism does not wash away the sins, Christ does! You and yours take a couple of verses and then try to destroy the mercy and grace of our Savior with those hand-picked verses. You use His Word to condemn others, the reality is just the opposite. His Word exposes your theology as lies and distortions.

---

1. Believe, believe, believe... right.

2. Baptism DOES wash away sins. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'by the property of water? NO that was and is very clear in I John 5. The water, blood and spirit are in agreement. YOU however are in disagreement by denial of the water.

3. Destroy mercy and grace? Not at all, you are just mud slinging. It is because of your misunderstanding that you see it this way. I hold nothing against you.

Excuse me a couple of verses I take out of context, ammmm no. You are by making baptism opposed to mercy and grace. It is not opposed to mercy and grace, it is not a work of man, but of God. That is WHAT John the baptist was teaching in repentance and forgiveness of sins. All the gospels say this, in fact Mark begins and ends with it, but you haven't been taught that so you get upset instead of studying the subject.

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 5/12/2005 11:41a).]

Alpha, your history is keeping you from seeing that baptism is the point at which sins are washed away.

If it is not then simple tell me WHERE the Bible says WHE sins are washed away.

Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38 are where the Bible DOES says when sins are washed away.

Give me the verse or verse that say WHEN sins are removed.

I will tell you what you will do with this question:
1. you will ignore it and stay on something you "feel" was said.
2. you will quote verses that are ALSO necessary for salvation but say nothing regarding when sins are removed
3. or you will just "know" or have a "feeling" because you aren't able to submit to what the Scripture says.
(o, you'll also object to my questions on some technicallity, anything to avoid the question just like you have done from the beginning of the posts)

Germany,

I may regret this, but let me give you a short reason why I reject the notion that you must be baptized to be saved.

Read John 7:37-39 Here the Spirit is promised to one day come to believers. Then read Acts 10:43-48.

The Spirit promised to flow in believers in John 7 now appears in Acts 10. While Peter spoke, the Holy Spirit came on those who HEARD the message. You do know you can hear a message without HEARING it don't you? The people HEARD and BELIEVED the message. The circumcised believers were astonished that God gave the Spirit to Gentiles. Peter then says, AFTER the Holy Spirit came to these believers, be baptized in the NAME of CHRIST. (He did not say be baptized for the forgiveness of sins or to wash away your sins, since he would have contradicted what he said earlier in Acts 10)

You become a Christian, you get baptized just as Christ was baptized to show you now are a believer. You should take special note of verse 43 which says, EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES in HIM RECEIVES FORGIVENESS OF SINS THROUGH HIS NAME.

Now, you may disagree with the conclusion that these Gentiles were saved prior to being baptized, but do not say there are no verses to support that baptism is not required to be saved. Like I've told you before, if it were so vitally important to be baptized to cleanse sins, Paul should be scolded for not mentioning baptism everytime he mentioned being saved by faith.

And please, never again say there is no verse that clearly says simply believing is enough to receive eternal life. It is okay with me that you reject this notion, but do keep in mind that from your viewpoint, if you changed your opinion on this matter, you might need to change churches and I dare say that may have a lot to do with your aggressive stance on baptism.

After awhile, we do become aware of denominational teachings and I think A&O's main point is, you are giving us the Church of Christ party line and saying, that's it, there are no other interpretations possible if you truly love God. I find that line of reasoning offensive too, but I have chosen not to attack for it, just to ignore it in most cases. Hey, we study things and come to different conclusions, it happens because we are human. I do not think any less of someone who disagrees with me.

Have a great day AgGermany.

Lorena,

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I may regret this, but let me give you a short reason why I reject the notion that you must be baptized to be saved.

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Hey, it’s a discussion about a very important topic, and I am glad you use scripture. Let’s look at what is said in scripture, my only appeal to you.

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Read John 7:37-39 Here the Spirit is promised to one day come to believers. Then read Acts 10:43-48.

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The Spirit promised to flow in believers in John 7 now appears in Acts 10. While Peter spoke, the Holy Spirit came on those who HEARD the message. You do know you can hear a message without HEARING it don't you? YES!!! The people HEARD and BELIEVED the message. The circumcised believers were astonished that God gave the Spirit to Gentiles. Peter then says, AFTER the Holy Spirit came to these believers, be baptized in the NAME of CHRIST. (He did not say be baptized for the forgiveness of sins or to wash away your sins, since he would have contradicted what he said earlier in Acts 10)

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Here is our disagreement Lorena. Peter does not contradict himself (we agree again) Here is the perceived disagreement 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Through his name Lorena, through his name! How does one get to the forgiveness promised here and promised by the prophets? This does not contradict Peter in Acts 2. They all heard, some believed and some accepted the terms Peter preached (Christ commanded in Mark 16:15, Matt 28:18)

Baptism is how you get “in” or “into” the name of Christ. There is NO other way described to get into Christ. Peter preached this over and over so did Paul.

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You become a Christian, you get baptized just as Christ was baptized to show you now are a believer. You should take special note of verse 43 which says, EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES in HIM RECEIVES FORGIVENESS OF SINS THROUGH HIS NAME.

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Your belief is not the power that brings you into Christ. Baptism, the very act is giving yourself over Romans 6.

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Now, you may disagree with the conclusion that these Gentiles were saved prior to being baptized, but do not say there are no verses to support that baptism is not required to be saved. Like I've told you before, if it were so vitally important to be baptized to cleanse sins, Paul should be scolded for not mentioning baptism everytime he mentioned being saved by faith.

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I’ll have to reject that part about Paul being scolded, he mentions it a lot, but never enough for those who will not believe. Faith of course is always required. Baptism is required to be washed of sin, and it is the point where one is “added to the number being saved”. I realize Acts 2 is like Kryptonite to Superman, but see what the words are saying.

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And please, never again say there is no verse that clearly says simply believing is enough to receive eternal life. It is okay with me that you reject this notion, but do keep in mind that from your viewpoint, if you changed your opinion on this matter, you might need to change churches and I dare say that may have a lot to do with your aggressive stance on baptism.

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I’ll say it again, belief is not enough because there are those who believe and without believing… Those who truly believe accept the message of Christ.

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After awhile, we do become aware of denominational teachings and I think A&O's main point is, you are giving us the Church of Christ party line and saying, that's it, there are no other interpretations possible if you truly love God. I find that line of reasoning offensive too, but I have chosen not to attack for it, just to ignore it in most cases. Hey, we study things and come to different conclusions, it happens because we are human. I do not think any less of someone who disagrees with me.
Have a great day AgGermany. .

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Why were the Gentiles baptized first as recorded by Luke quoting Peter? You say to show they were already saved by hearing and believing. I am pointing you to an example of the 3,000 Jews in Acts 2 were baptized into the name of Christ, for the remission of sins. They are the ones who accepted the message! That is real belief and believing.

The Holy Spirit miracles (show of power and authority) is shown in Acts to come before or after baptism in water for the forgiveness of sins.

Lorena, I cannot understand how Acts 22:16 can be misunderstood either. “Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.' “

It is in your Bible too and is no Party line. I am just likely to quote “EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES in HIM RECEIVES FORGIVENESS OF SINS THROUGH HIS NAME”

Acts 2:38-42 is an example in detail of this happening, so is Acts 22:16.

You have a great day too!

AgGermany,

Believe me, I understand your argument, but I build doctrine based upon the reading of the entire new testament, not by camping out on a verse in Acts 2.

Basically, I cannot draw your conclusion because it appears to me that now, in this church age, people are added to the body of Christ by faith, not by baptism. I see this transition occur in the NT clearly, so I cannot ignore it.

If what you say is true, you and I would need to be baptized every Sunday to wash away last week's sins. In context, I do not believe it was or is the intention of Peter, Luke or Paul to put an if or but on what Jesus says for example in John 6:47, John 6:35, John 11:25, John 5:24, and so on and so on.

Germany, you don't get into Christ, He gets into you, by FAITH. Following the command of Christ in baptism is an act of obedience, not an act of salvation. What if I according to you get immediately baptized and am in Christ, but I slide back into sin, must I get rebaptized according to your doctrine?

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Baptism is how you get “in” or “into” the name of Christ.

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That is simply a lie from Satan himself. I was going to add more, but LorenaAg beat me to it:

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If what you say is true, you and I would need to be baptized every Sunday to wash away last week's sins.

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AND

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Germany, you don't get into Christ, He gets into you, by FAITH. Following the command of Christ in baptism is an act of obedience, not an act of salvation. What if I according to you get immediately baptized and am in Christ, but I slide back into sin, must I get rebaptized according to your doctrine?

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Doc, follow this guy a while longer and you will understand that the guy is a legend in his own mind. Now he even answers his own questions!

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I will tell you what you will do with this question:
1. you will ignore it and stay on something you "feel" was said.
2. you will quote verses that are ALSO necessary for salvation but say nothing regarding when sins are removed
3. or you will just "know" or have a "feeling" because you aren't able to submit to what the Scripture says.
(o, you'll also object to my questions on some technicallity, anything to avoid the question just like you have done from the beginning of the posts)

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One more from LorenaAg:

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After awhile, we do become aware of denominational teachings and I think A&O's main point is, you are giving us the Church of Christ party line and saying, that's it, there are no other interpretations possible if you truly love God. I find that line of reasoning offensive too, but I have chosen not to attack for it, just to ignore it in most cases. Hey, we study things and come to different conclusions, it happens because we are human. I do not think any less of someone who disagrees with me.

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LorenaAg is a much better Christian than I am, I have a hard time separating AgGermany from his CocC party-line rhetoric!

Lorenaag1, your own choice of examples that included baptism of Acts 10 is one I would choose because the same writer, Luke tells the same story. I am camping in Acts for my examples, it is the story of this "church age".

You can see that those who accepted the message Peter spoke to them were baptized and were added to the number of those being saved. "v41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. about
3,000 were baptized.
"v47 And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

Why pit baptism against faith? Baptism is to put faith in Christ as told in Romans 6 and it is required by Christ Matt 28:18.

Why wouldn't you see what John 6, 11, and 5 mean in practice. No one but Christ understood until the HS came on the Apostles as recorded in Acts 2.

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Germany, you don't get into Christ, He gets into you, by FAITH. Following the command of Christ in baptism is an act of obedience, not an act of salvation. What if I according to you get immediately baptized and am in Christ, but I slide back into sin, must I get rebaptized according to your doctrine?

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Book, chapter, verse for Christ getting you as opposed to be baptized into Christ. Once again I see you pitting one thing against another when they are all are of faith.

Right baptism is our obedience and Christ promises the salvation by grace through faith.

Your question regarding baptism after every time you sin is fair. No, you don't get baptized over and over. Just as a child is born into a family he carries the name of the family, he can run away as the proidigal shows us and he can return as a son upon repentance. Baptism into Christ changes your relationship into a son of God. John 1.

Answer my previous questions if you will please.

And do you agree that Paul/Saul was covered in sin until he actually got up and had his sins washed away in baptism? Acts 22:16