Those who are uneasy with Christian ideas and/or perceived agendas

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Fightin TX Aggie
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Here are some of the things that Jesus said:
  • Do not murder
  • Do not steal
  • Do not give false testimony (meaning do not lie)
  • Honor your father and mother
  • Love your neighbor as yourself.
One day Jesus was asked to identify the "greatest" commandment. Here was his reply:
quote:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
Why is "love your neighbor" so closely related to "love God"? Well, because they are nearly one and the same. Jesus explained this to one of his disciples:
quote:
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?”

He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
To Jesus, you showed love for Him by loving your neighbors.

So, when it comes down to its most basic form, the practice of Chrisitanity calls on Christians to love our neighbors.

Does that really bother you? If not, what is it that you think bothers you about Christianity?

[This message has been edited by Fightin TX Aggie (edited 4/26/2005 5:15p).]
estanfie
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Sorry, but "love your neighbors" is not Christianity in it's most basic form...
schizmann
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quote:
Does that really bother you? If not, what is it that you think bothers you about Christianity?



Nothing bothers me about true christianity. What bothers me is when miss-guided, self-rightous chrstians violate basic christian principles and try to push insane agendas on the rest of us, such as supporting the destruction of science education via attacks on evolution, and trying to blur the necessary boundry between church and state. Just to give a few examples.
Windy City Ag
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quote:
, when it comes down to its most basic form, Chrisitanity calls on us to love our neighbors.

Does that really bother you? If not, what is it that you think bothers you about Christianity?


When talking to some of my friends who have strayed from the church, a consistent theme is hypocrisy.

Organized religion, they claim, mouths platitudes like universal love but also engenders attitudes bordering on hate for lifestyles that don't fit into the Christian moral framework.

The Lone Stranger
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What bothers me is trite, emotionally laden, ad hominemish, knee jerk responses. And then what bothers me even more is when those people are so quick to point out trite, emotionally laden, ad hominemish, knee jerk responses in others.

Orphan
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If you cannot love your neighbor, whom you can see, how can you love God, whom you cannnot see?

In the exchange between Jesus and Peter, Willard is of the opinion that Jesus was presenting Peter with a "crisis in Faith"...would he truly follow Jesus, or would he turn from Jesus. Peter was given a chance not to prove his love for Jesus, but to carry out that love. Remember of course that Peter had failed Jesus previously. I don't believe this was a test of any type, but a opportunity by Peter to follow Jesus and become a complete Disciple of Christ, or turn away.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Reading Dallas Willard has been very good for me.

david.
Sink Maggots
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I agree I don't think it boils down to loving your neighbor.

Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, body, strength, (anything else you can think of)...

I believe if you do that you will do what he says when he says love your neighbor. That's what loving the Lord is -- doing what he says with a cheerful heart.
Guadaloop474
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Huh?

Mark 12:29: Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;

30: and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'

31: The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these

Texasag73
Fightin TX Aggie
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Orphan, Dallas Willard is phenomenal.

What have you read?

I have read "The Divine Conspiracy" and "Renovation of the Heart."

btw, I also enjoy Yancey.
opk
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I respectfully submit that the quotations of Jesus in this thread are, with the exception of his conversation with Simon, those things that he recited in the synagogue, three times a day. They are the very core of Judaism and are at the heart of the daily service, even to this day. So, yes, Jesus said these things...the substance of Judaism. Here is the original:

http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/shema.htm

The basis for "Love thy neighbor" is:

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.





[This message has been edited by opk (edited 4/26/2005 8:49p).]
Fightin TX Aggie
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quote:
“Then the King [Jesus] will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Mathew 25:34-40

[This message has been edited by Fightin TX Aggie (edited 4/26/2005 9:24p).]
Orphan
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FTA...I'm finishing up "The Divine Conspiracy". Good book.

d.
ramblin_ag02
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The secular definition of religious hypocrisy:

1. Preaching perfection despite not being perfect

2. Saying you love someone, but not condoning their every desire


You can call me a religious hypocrit all you want. Both of the above apply to me in spades.


NonReg85
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Ramblin is right. For example, those that believe gay marriage is right believe christians who oppose it are hypocrits. They simply do not see, or choose not to see, that those christians love them enough to NOT condone a lifestyle that is harmful to their eternal soul. I don't intend to hijack this thread but I recognize the potential of this statement to do just that...Please start a new thread to argue the finer points of gay marriage.
opk
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Here's an interesting take on "Love thy neighbor".

---------------------------------------

Can you really love your neighbor as your self?

By Rabbi David Aaron


After reading this essay, you'll never look at yourself — or others — the same way again. Guaranteed


http://www.JewishWorldReview.com Kirk Douglas once told me that when people compliment him on a performance, they often tell him how great he was at losing himself in the part. "You just became Vincent Van Gogh! You were so wonderful." And he answers, "No, you lost yourself in the part. I can't afford to lose myself in the part. I have to pay attention to the director, to the cues. I have to hit the mark just right so the action is in the camera frame. I must stay aware that I am an actor acting a part."


So a good actor plays his part, but he doesn't get lost in his part. He can't even begin to think he is the character he is playing. On the other hand, it is not like he doesn't embrace that character with a tremendous amount of love and give everything he's got to play that character to the best of his ability. But he doesn't get lost in the part and start to think he is in fact Van Gogh, or Napoleon, or the President of the United States, or a serial killer or whatever.

Similarly, you — the soul — are playing a character. You must always be aware of that. We are each playing a character, and it is important that we not confuse the "self" with the character.


Another way of putting this is to compare your character to a garment. So you see a man in a white uniform running down the street holding a net. Well, you might guess he works for an insane asylum. The garment indicates the role he is playing but not who he is. He might then go home and then put on some sweatpants, and go out running again, but now he is an athlete.

Your garment is never your essence. The clothes you wear are not you, they are on you. Similarly, your character is not your "self." So you must never confuse the two. You must know the difference.

You do not have a soul. You are a soul. But you have a character. And you—the self— are a soul, a spark of G-d—the Source of all self—the Great Self.

ME AND YOU

When you are trapped in your ego, you end up doing a lot of harm in many ways. Just as you identify yourself with your career, or your emotions, or your opinions, so you identify others with just their egos and personas and you never connect with them as souls.


The Torah teaches "Love your neighbor as yourself," but if you cannot love your "self," you cannot love the "self" in someone else.


So you say, "How's it even possible for me to love my neighbor? I don't even like him. In fact, I hate him. I can't stand his dumb ideas, he talks too much, he acts like a monkey, he looks like one, and to be frank, what I hate the most about him is his stupid tiny red hat. Love him? No way. At best, maybe I can force a smile when he comes around."

When the Torah says love your neighbor as yourself, it doesn't mean that you have to love your neighbor's ideas, nor opinions, nor actions, and certainly not his clothing.


Love your neighbor as yourself means you can hate his ideas, be annoyed by his talk and his walk, but still love that person.


We are commanded to love each other, and we can love each other, because we are not the characters we play. Each one of us is a soul, a spark of the Great "I."


I am commanded to love your "self" in the same way as I love my "self," because we are both sparks within the one Great Self — G-d. Notice how that sentence in the Torah ends: "Love your neighbor as yourself, [for] 'I' am G-d."


I need to get beyond my ego, and I need to see beyond your ego. Then I can love you, and help you get beyond your ego too. Then, we can work together to fix and improve the characters we are each playing, and thereby let the light of G-d — the Great self shine through us.


I once met a fellow — I'd like to call him Sparky — who cynically denied a spiritual dynamic between people. "It's a bunch of baloney. I don't buy this soul stuff, this spiritual junk."


I asked him "Is there any one that you love?"


He said, "Yeah sure, I love my wife."


"Well, what then is love?"


He flatly said, "Neuro-electrical impulses."


Good old Sparky, a real romantic.


Unlike Sparky most people believe in a soul connection. However when they start looking for love, they often confuse the persona with the soul, and get trapped in a kind of shopping mode looking for what a person has rather than who a person is.


Not too long ago, I did a singles workshop in Manhattan. The place was packed. I asked the participants to write a list of what they were looking for in a future partner.


I then asked for volunteers to share their list with the crowd. People anxiously put up their hands hoping that by the end of their reading some other lonely soul would call out, "Yoo-hoo, here I am."


So my first volunteer got up, and he nervously read: "I am looking for someone who is warm, soft, calm ... " At that point someone rudely called out: "Get the guy a cat." The crowd burst into laughter. Not exactly a love-your-neighbor-as-yourself scene. After that all the volunteers' hands quickly went down.


I then cautioned the group that lists like these can be misleading because they are only describing a persona, and not a soul. The question is — are you looking for a persona partner or a soul mate? Lists can sometimes get in the way of meeting your soul mate.


There is a wonderful old children's story that illustrates how we all yearn to be loved for our true selves.


Once upon a time, there lived a very good but very poor couple, who had a son. When the boy was born a relative sent some expensive and elegant cloth as a birthday present. The mother stored it away and said, "When my son will be a man I will send him into this world with a beautiful robe made of this material."


One day, when the boy grew up, a rich merchant invited all the town's people to a feast. The son came in his usual tattered clothing, and no one made room for him at the table. Broken-hearted at the rejection, he went home.


To console him, his mother gave him a beautiful robe made from the elegant cloth she had stored away all these years. The boy returned to the feast dressed in his new finery.


The rich man saw him, rushed over and bowed, and asked him to sit beside him. The boy took off his elegant robe, holding it by the food and said, "Eat robe, eat as much as you want."


"Why are you talking to your coat?" asked the rich man.


"Because when I was here before, in poor clothing, no one paid any attention to me. But now I come in fancy robe and you treat me royally. It is clearly not me you invited to eat beside you, but my robe."


The lesson is clear: If you love me for my robe, you rob me of my self.


But if you love me for myself, you give me a treasure beyond price.


[This message has been edited by opk (edited 4/29/2005 10:56p).]
NICE!
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I have many problems with Christianity, and religion in general. My main issue, however, is the fact that once you decide you have "faith" in the existence of supernatural beings whose existence cannot be demonstrated, you are on no firmer foundation than any other person who has "faith" in a different supernatural being.

Then when people are led to do damaging, irrational, or othewise crazy things as a result of their "faith," there is no way to dissuade them because they have a "feeling" that they are following God's word. This manifests itself in several ways, from crazies flying planes into buildings to politicians basing legislation on their religious beliefs. neither are guided by appeals to rationality, rather, they are motivated by "faith" in the commands of beings whose existence cannot be proven. Thus, the politician who creates anti-gay legislation because of his religious beliefs is no more rational than the terrorist who kills innocent people.

Public policy should be determined by rationality and empiricism, not by human interpretations of the dictates of supernatural beings.
Fightin TX Aggie
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quote:
This manifests itself in several ways, from crazies flying planes into buildings to politicians basing legislation on their religious beliefs. neither are guided by appeals to rationality, rather, they are motivated by "faith" in the commands of beings whose existence cannot be proven.
Well, although any religion can be mis-used by its followers, you do not see modern Christians blowing themsleves up and screaming "Jesus is great!" The reason is what I wrote about above - the Christian faith is about love and turning the other cheek. It is not about killing innocents.

I would also note that almost all of our social welfare laws come from the Judeo/Christian belief system in our country. We are obliged as Christians to protect the opressed and to minister to the poor. We must look out for orphans and widows.

So, most of the laws which you, NICE!, probably like - probably came about from Christian belief systems.
TexasAggie_97
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Think of it like this we should love God with all our heart right? Our neighbors are children of God meaning God resides in them. If we can't love our neighbors with whom God resides then can we really love God? I think in a round about way this is what Jesus was talking about.
Christian Pulisic FanBoy
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quote:
When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?”

He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”

Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”


All this proves is Jesus was worried about his farm animals.

quote:
Well, although any religion can be mis-used by its followers, you do not see modern Christians blowing themsleves up and screaming "Jesus is great!"

It may not be blowing themselves up, but it's killing in the name of the Lord.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/24/doctor.killed.02/
http://www.rickross.com/reference/a-abortion/a-abortion22.html
Fightin TX Aggie
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Rudy, a few isolated abortion-nuts do not reflect, even slightly, the dominant Christian culture in the USA.

And your farm animal remark is just offensive. Not funny, just offensive. But was not that your intention?
uriah923
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There is a difference between killing and murder, and the Bible is very clear that killing is sometimes condoned by God while murder is not. But, when you start talking about stem cells, invalids and fetuses it becomes very difficult to determine when something is actually 'alive', which can lead down a path of moral relativity ( see http://www.omninerd.com/news/news.php?nid=101 ) that can really screw with your head.
TexasAggie_97
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quote:
such as supporting the destruction of science education via attacks on evolution

Do you not see the hypocrisy in this statement? Yes it is true that a lot of Christians don't subscribe to science's theory of evolution but to say they fervently attack it is unfair. Even you have to agree that atheists/agnostics spew far more venom at the notion of God then what comes from the other side. I may not totally agree with the whole notion of evolution but I do understand that it happens on some basic levels. I can meet you halfway on that but a lot of non-believers refuse to do the same. Many, not all, laugh at anybody who believes in God and think them to be simpletons, etc. They demand everybody to believe in what they believe in and there is little wiggle room allowed. The biggest difference in my opinion is that I want everybody to know God while atheists/agnostics refuse to and laugh at those that do. I won’t laugh at you but I will pray for you and feel sorry that you do not.

NICE!
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quote:
Well, although any religion can be mis-used by its followers, you do not see modern Christians blowing themsleves up and screaming "Jesus is great!" The reason is what I wrote about above - the Christian faith is about love and turning the other cheek. It is not about killing innocents.

This is an intersting dilemma for followers of any faith, because you're basically saying that Christianity today is different from Christianity in the past. How is it that Christian behavior has changed even though the texts upon which it is based has not? First, this is evidence that Christian dogma has changed to suit political goals, and is thus not an absolute as many claim it to be. Second, it is evidence that there is a guiding force beyond religion that is causing changes in what is considered acceptable. For, if Christians were indeed true to the faith, they would not accept certain moral norms now that they did not in the past. The Christian faith could thus be said to be plastic, and without a firm foundation. This is understandable, as Christian religious texts are so varied (and often times contradictory) in their messages that virtually any position can be argued and defended by reference to a particular biblical passage. Different denominations use the same texts, but have strikingly wide variations in the interpretations of those texts. This is essentially the history of the Christian church: a modification of moral norms and acceptable behavior throughout the years.

How do we reconcile contradictions between individuals who take wildly different interpretations from the same text? How coherent could a text be if it is subject to such differences in interpretations? How do we determine whose interpretation is correct? Why would a deity provide us with such unclear and ambiguous guidance?

This is why I feel that secular forms of morality, such as utilitarianism, are superior in that they are absolute and not subject to the above problems. Admittedly, secular forms of morality do have their own difficulties, however I think they are a better guide for determining right and wrong.

quote:
I would also note that almost all of our social welfare laws come from the Judeo/Christian belief system in our country. We are obliged as Christians to protect the opressed and to minister to the poor. We must look out for orphans and widows.

I agree that calls for compassion and social welfare are the redeeming qualities of Christian ethics. However, let's not get carried away here as you will notice that the most vociferous, fundamentalist Christian lawmakers are those most opposed to social welfare laws and favor removal of the social safety net. The number of children in the US without medical insurance, or any decent medical care at all, is staggering. Where are our Christian principles when it comes to these issues? Who in congress is pushing for legislation to help the poorest of the poor? Frankly, I'm not sure, but I'd be surprised if it could be demonstrated that it was the most vocal and outspoken Christians. This seems to me to be one of the great contradictions among today's political leaders. They claim the Christian moral high-ground, yet their actions give lie to their claims.

quote:
So, most of the laws which you, NICE!, probably like - probably came about from Christian belief systems.

True, as do many of the laws that I think are most problematic and dammaging, such as drug laws, anti-gay, anti-abortion laws, and efforts to dismantle the social safety net. These laws which have the most support from fundamentalist Christian lawmakers, are damaging to society, yet they are in accord with Christian dogma. Lastly, I don't think we should assume that Christianity is alone in calls for compassion and social justice. There are many other religions that are dedicated to these same goals.

Btw, don't ever let it be said that I don't love this country and the fact that we can have these debates.
Fightin TX Aggie
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quote:
the most vociferous, fundamentalist Christian lawmakers are those most opposed to social welfare laws and favor removal of the social safety net.
Ahhhh....now you are talking about means and methods - not about goals. One need not be a liberal or a socialist to care about the poor.

As to your remarks about the changes in Christians, I think your premise is fundamentally flawed, but there is so much that could be written about the subject.

Basically, though, I would argue that true Christianity has not changed much if at all since the time of Paul. I would alos forcefully argue that there has been no greater force for good, in the history of the world, than Christianity.
Picadillo
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quote:
supporting the destruction of science education via attacks on evolution,


I don't know a single Christian who is against the teaching of evolution, although I recognize there are some.

The Christians I mingle with simply want the right for the creationist side to be heard. The evolutionist zealots are the ones practicing censorship in the schools and will not allow discussion of any creationist viewpoint.

As I teach my kids, it is important to know that there are strong cases for both sides. To ignore one without learning about the other is shortchanging the kids, IMHO.
TexasAggie_97
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quote:
As I teach my kids, it is important to know that there are strong cases for both sides. To ignore one without learning about the other is shortchanging the kids, IMHO.


AMEN!
Christian Pulisic FanBoy
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quote:
Rudy, a few isolated abortion-nuts do not reflect, even slightly, the dominant Christian culture in the USA.

And your farm animal remark is just offensive. Not funny, just offensive. But was not that your intention?


Just as a few isolated terrorist nuts do not reflect, even slightly, the dominant Arabic culture in the world.

In regards to the animal remark, get a freaking sense of humour. It if offends you, I apologize, but you're just a little too sensitive.
Orphan
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opk...very thought provoking. Thank you for posting it.

david
opk
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David, Glad you found it interesting.
Yahoodie
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quote:
The Christians I mingle with simply want the right for the creationist side to be heard. The evolutionist zealots are the ones practicing censorship in the schools and will not allow discussion of any creationist viewpoint


I believe that the creation side should be presented outside of our public school system. Since it is a component of a particular religious belief, then ones involvement in that religion should be enough to ensure that children are exposed to this belief. It has no place in our public school system unless it is imbedded in a philosphy or religion class.
Picadillo
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quote:
Since it is a component of a particular religious belief, then ones involvement in that religion should be enough to ensure that children are exposed to this belief. It has no place in our public school system unless it is imbedded in a philosphy or religion class.


I'm afraid it is more complex than that. For your position to have merit, one must also take the position that creationism has no valid science in it, whatsoever; is that what you are saying?

A good education..."renaissance" as I would call it, should include being informed on all sides of an issue. To duck the question of studying creationism simply because it was a part of a religious belief, is only cheating our kids.

Shall we start looking at all areas of study that have their roots in religion? Such as our laws, and issues of sexuality, marriage, etc.?



[This message has been edited by Piccadillo (edited 4/30/2005 12:16p).]
Yahoodie
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Creationism has some science to it? I'm open. Show me. But I'm a skeptic. Is there some science to "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" or is there some science to "and on the 8th day he rested" - why would God need rest? Please someone explain this scientifically.
Picadillo
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Would you be willing to accept the following two premises...

Creationism (or Intelligent Design) has no merit

Science (evolution) is infallible

[This message has been edited by Piccadillo (edited 4/30/2005 5:07p).]
Yahoodie
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Of course, I would not accept either. And your point is?
heteroscedasticity
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Pic

Who is preventing the creatiionist side from being heard? Do it in church, bible class, a philosphyy or religion class. Nobody is opposed to that. There are plenty of venues for this to be done..Just DON"T DO IT IN SCIENCE CLASS becuase creationism is not science.
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