Help me understand the Catholic faith a little better.

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RadoAg04
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I'm Prodestant and I don't know a whole lot about the Catholic faith and I want to. I hear about the Pope and the Virgin Mary a lot and I was just wondering what their roles are in the Catholic faith. It almost seems like they are worshiped (that might not be the case but to this Prodestant outsider I have no idea so help me out). It seems to me that the institution of "the church" is elevated in many peoples' minds above what is truly important: the death and resurrection of Jesus. Additionally what do yall believe is necessary to reach Heaven and what is the deal with Purgatory? Thanks for your insights.

[This message has been edited by RadoAg04 (edited 3/31/2005 3:48p).]

[This message has been edited by RadoAg04 (edited 3/31/2005 3:51p).]
BMX Bandit
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Mary is the mother of Jesus. She is venerated, not worshipped.

The Pope is the leader of the Church on earth.
recall1999
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Rado,

I'd love to help you out with this. I'll try to address the points you raise to the best of my abilities.

quote:
I hear about the Pope and the Virgin Mary a lot and I was just wondering what their roles are in the Catholic faith. It almost seems like they are worshiped (that might not be the case but to this Prodestant outsider I have no idea so help me out).


The simple answer is that they are not worshiped... period. The pope is considered to be the pastor of the universal church. He has final authority over all matters facing the church. Often times Catholics will pray FOR the pope... that God will give him wisdom in his office, but we don't worship him.

The Virgin Mary is a bit more complicated. Catholics believe that you can ask a saint to pray to God for you. (Similar to asking a friend to pray for you.) Such is the case with Mary... she is the mother of Jesus, and as such, holds a special place with him. It's interesting to note that the role of Mary varies WIDELY with cultures.

quote:
It seems to me that the institution of "the church" is elevated in many peoples' minds above what is truly important: the death and resurrection of Jesus.


I'm sure there are people that fall into this category, and I really think it's unfortunate. I will say that the church does not grant salvation, as that can only come from God. The sacrifice of Christ is, as you said, what is truly important.

One thing to note is that the Catholic church is universal. You can go into any church in the world on any day of the week, and aside from the sermon, here the same service. I once heard mass in German. Couldn't understand the sermon at all, but in an odd way, the language barrier didn't prevent me from participating in the mass.

quote:
what do yall believe is necessary to reach Heaven and what is the deal with Purgatory?


As for reaching heaven, pretty much the same as you guys. Accept Christ. (In my mind, that involves loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul and turning away from sin.)

Purgatory is one of those areas where beliefs vary widely from person to person. The standard belief is that you cannot enter heaven without being cleansed of sins. However, Catholics tend to disagree amongst themselves as to exactly how this happens. Some people view it as a holding tank before getting into heaven. Others think it passes instantly. Still others disregard the idea of purgatory completely and simply accept the fact that Jesus redeemed us of all our sins on the cross. Personally, I tend to fall into that last category. However, I once had a priest friend tell me that your beliefs on purgatory aren't going to get you into, or keep you out of, heaven.

I hope I answered your questions. I'm not a very learned person when it comes to doctrine, so I can really only tell you what I, a practicing Catholic, believe. I hope it helped.

Gig 'em
opie03
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I'll try to stay out of this as much as possible, but I may fail horribly.
Notafraid
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RadoAg04,

I could point you to some stuff, but it's a little on the scholarly side... Are you cool with that, or do you want the Readers Digest version?
RadoAg04
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Thanks for your take, recall1999.

notafraid,

I'm not sure what I did to offend you besides ask a simple question based on my casual observations from an uninformed Prodestant's perspective. Why don't you go ahead and give me your "scholarly" response to my questions.

[This message has been edited by RadoAg04 (edited 3/31/2005 5:11p).]
JayAggie
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Rado,

Recall made some excellent points and nailed them right on the head for the most part. The important thing to remember is to do the research yourself. Most Catholics don't even know all the doctrine of the church. A Catechism (basically a dictionary of Catholic beliefs) explains beliefs on various topics, usually citing biblical references, which is important to everyone. You can also email Father Mike at St. Marys, who is excellent at answering questions about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. His email is mjsis@aggiecatholic.org again though some priests have varying opinions on topics such as purgatory, so personal research is important, but I have found Father Mike to be the most helpful.
RadoAg04
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Thanks Jay,

It seems like Catholicism is a lot like Prodestantism in that you have varying beliefs and opinions within the broader religion. Kind of like how you get Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc. within the Prodestant church. I guess my main questions about Catholicism related to the roles of the Pope and the Virgin Mary, which recall did a pretty good job of addressing.
JayAggie
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notafraid,

our job is to inform people of the beliefs not bash them for being too stupid to learn. Be eager to teach and not to judge. It's not everyday that someone is honestly seeking questions about the Catholic faith without being bias.
Notafraid
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RadoAg04,

quote:

I'm not sure what I did to offend you besides ask a simple question based on my casual observations from an uninformed Prodestant's perspective. Why don't you go ahead and give me your "scholarly" response to my questions.



I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to offend you. I can see how that might have come across as offensive… I was not sure if you were into reading some of the more heavy theological stuff or not. The reason I even asked, is that there have been a lot of complaints over the years that much of the stuff discussed on R&P was too theologically deep for several people. I think in saying that, they just did not have a lot of the foundation laid that many of the conversations were occurring on. It’s not that they were not smart people, it’s just that they had not been exposed to, or were just not into the technical conversations enough to really benefit from much of it.

Now, I don’t know you at all, so I simply wanted to get a feel for what kind of stuff to turn you onto. It has taken me years to understand certain things about RCism, and I have been exposed to it and it’s arguments in what some might consider an extreme way. In fact Texags R&P was first started back in 2000 if memory serves me right when me and Tuag (a former psudo-RC theologian poster) were beginning to have several deeper theological arguments. He had issued a challenge to anyone who could dispute his positions on Sola Scriptura. The poster b. blauser was a co-worker of mine who turned me onto the challenge, and so the rest is history.

I of course in time defeated him, and cast him down out of Texags to roam to and fro on the earth…, but that's another story...



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 3/31/2005 5:56p).]
berserked
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It would help if you knew "what" you were, first. You say you're a "Prodestant". The word is "Protestant", which means to protest the abuses of the Catholic Church in the 16th century.
How can you understand them, when you don't know who you are? I don't mean this in an insensitive manner, but sometimes historically speaking, Christians don't have a sense of self.
titan
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RadoAg04,

Purgatory is easily dealt with, as long as you see it in context. The key is, the Catholic belief on how santification operates works out in such a way where almost de-facto, its necessary to presume some manner of posthumous `rinsing' of remaining sin-stains as it were.

The Reformed arguments, particularly Luther's "dung hill covered by snow" analogy of how a sinner is declared just, operate in such a way where its not necessary to `account' for "remaining sin" at death.

The theological arguments are complex and profound, but the shorthand point is -- the Catholic view of santification makes it entirely logical, the Protestant view of the same makes Purgatory as an idea seem crazy. That's why the two can't agree. But both can point to possible support.

On the wider point --- understand that the difference is kind of like Americans as vs Europeans in class instruction. Americans of Gen-now today come across extremely clueless about history and other cultures and events -- this because the school system now over-focuses on social issues and uses an impressionistic method. But in Europe, they often know American history almost as well as their own -- at least this has been the case of many encountered. Russians even had to learn english (maybe still do).

Anyway, similarly, --- Catholics are `short-changed' on theology and history in the context of the mass. Its really as simple as saying a Protestant pastor tends to talk about particular doctrines and stances in great detail -- the sermon itself is long. They also have their sunday school session.

The way Catholicism works, its bound up in the ritual, the communion together, and the symbolism. There is an elaborate and deep instruction as the Protestants, but the catch is you have to go "attend it" -- it doesn't come to you the way it does in a Protestant sermon.

The net result is, especially in America with all its emphasis by televangelists and such on personal behavior, alot of Catholics do indeed end up with a Semi-pelagian outlook. I myself did.

Catholicism's deeper arguments are actually very sound, and many Protestants are still going by what the Reformers contended against (which was *also* wrong) and not realizing the authentic tradition.

[This message has been edited by titan (edited 3/31/2005 6:31p).]
RadoAg04
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Notafraid,

Thanks for the background. In your initial post I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not (so hard to tell sometimes on here) but I appreciate you clearing that up and I apoligize for the miscommunication. Feel free to go as deep or as "Reader's Digest" (thats a good term, I like it) as you wish. I'm indeed not trying to engage in a debate, but am merely trying to gain an understanding of a sector of Christianity that I do not have much experience in (only have one Catholic friend and he avoids religious discussions like the plague). So thanks to everyone for their insights and feel free to add more if you wish. Another question has popped into my head and I think the answer will be pretty easy for yall to knock out: So when I hear a Catholic refer to "mass", they're just not referring to a church service in the general sense but rather Catholic mass is a structured event that is the same wherever you go, no matter the language or location?

berserked,

I know what I am within the Prodestant faith but I really don't feel its that important to my question at hand and thats why I haven't really gone into it.


[This message has been edited by RadoAg04 (edited 3/31/2005 7:16p).]
Guadaloop474
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The Catholic Mass is a combination of the liturgy of the Word (prayer and Scripture), and the Liturgy of the Eucharist (The Last Supper).

Catholics do not pray to saints as they do to God (pray means to ask). So, we ask the holy saints in heaven, who present our petitions to God (Revelations 5:8) to pray for us, because their prayers are more efficatious (James 5:16).

Catholics love the Blessed Virgin Mary, because her soul magnifies the Lord (Luke 1:46).

Texasag73
Cyprian
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RadoAg04,

I wouldn't waste your time listening to non-Catholics tell you about Catholicism. The best way to learn about any view is to try and look from the inside out, and Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma is a fine & comprehensive introduction to all things Catholic.

[This message has been edited by WHOOO2P!! (edited 3/31/2005 8:38p).]
Notafraid
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RadoAg04,

quote:

Thanks for the background. In your initial post I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not (so hard to tell sometimes on here) but I appreciate you clearing that up and I apoligize for the miscommunication. Feel free to go as deep or as "Reader's Digest" (thats a good term, I like it) as you wish. I'm indeed not trying to engage in a debate, but am merely trying to gain an understanding of a sector of Christianity that I do not have much experience in (only have one Catholic friend and he avoids religious discussions like the plague). So thanks to everyone for their insights and feel free to add more if you wish. Another question has popped into my head and I think the answer will be pretty easy for yall to knock out: So when I hear a Catholic refer to "mass", they're just not referring to a church service in the general sense but rather Catholic mass is a structured event that is the same wherever you go, no matter the language or location?



No problemo. As per RCs, part of understanding what they have become today comes from understanding the changes that happened after the Reformation. Here is an article, that if you really understand it, can serve as a great filter for interpreting a good many things to do with Roman Catholicism. I have studied it, and thought about it much as I thought about other things inherent to RCism, and within the context of Sacerdotalism, a lot of the RC view of salvation, (particularly with justification) and authority makes sense. Keep in mind that this article was written pre Vatican II. You will find that post Vatican II RC thinkers are slightly different (although they all seem to think that Rome has always though the same way as their own current understanding of her is now.) This is one of those documents that has really been in my opinion one of the keys to me getting my hands around what makes Rome tick. It has served as a catalyst for some of my own thinking, and although it is far from being a comprehensive informational type of document, I think it would be a good starting point for someone who wants to do scholarly study and analysis of RCism.

Just some setup: In the Roman system , Sacraments like Baptism and primarily the Eucharist (Lord’s supper), is key to Justification (being declared rightous before the Father), it is as stated in Trent, "that all true justice either begins; or being begun is increased; or being lost, is repaired."… The being lost and repaired part consists of one having perhaps committed a mortal sin (mortifying their justification) , can thereby confess, being repentant, perhaps be given a penance for the temporal punishment due, and be granted absolution through the priest. The sacramental system (More the focus on participating in the Eucharist) is at the core of RCism.

Where as in Protestantism, we view salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, believing ourselves to be justified by his own righteousness. Having faith and believing in that, we are reckoned as righteous, even as Abraham was (Romans 4), and so looking to the promises of God directly, our faith rests in Christ. The Roman system stands in stark contrast to that as the article describes.

http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/pos3.htm



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 3/31/2005 9:31p).]
RadoAg04
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Wow that was an intense but very fascinating article. Thanks for the input.
Guadaloop474
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Listening to notafraid describe Catholicism is like listening to Michael Schiavo's lawyer describe Terri as being beautiful while starving...Simply incredible.

As The Gipper once said about liberals .."It's not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't true."



Texasag73
RadoAg04
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So notafraid is inaccurate? I don't know any better. I'm like someone who speaks Spanish trying to listen to the Terry Schiavo broadcasts in English. (sorry HORRIBLE analogy but its all I got right now)
Notafraid
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RadoAg04

quote:

Wow that was an intense but very fascinating article. Thanks for the input.


I hope it helps… Keep in mind that some of those things have softened, probably thanks to Vatican II and the following ecumenism movement. Looking for unity has changed them somewhat, just as critical scholarly confrontation with Protestantism has had an impact as well. Note that not all RCs are the same, and there are a wide range of personalities, and laypersons that might have a diverse set of things that they personally emphasize (some even the doctrines of Grace, and the gospel), either due to personal uniqueness, or the particular teaching at the local parish. For the most part the limitations of a liturgical calendar that keeps them perpetually out of certain scriptures leaves many of them somewhat ignorant of many biblical doctrines. The one unifying force, is commitment to, and loyalty to mother Church. An attack on her, is often seen as a direct attack on their own faith and on Christ himself.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 3/31/2005 11:23p).]
Redstone
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"The one unifying force, is commitment to, and loyalty to mother Church. An attack on her, is often seen as a direct attack on their own faith and on Christ himself."

I've said before that the Church is bigger on the inside than it appears from the outside, and its true, believe it or not. Its a human institution made up of sinners. And its also something else.

Stop for a moment and ask yourself: what if the very large claims are true? Investigate, but always let the Church speak for herself. Get a catechism; read these sites.

www.newadvent.org
www.catholic.com
Redstone
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And I'm going to repost my personal reasons, formally written. I hope others do not mind the length.



Catholicism is the antidote to nihilism. And by nihilism I mean not the sour, dark, often violent nihilism of Nietzsche and Sartre, but the nihilism that enjoys itself on the way to oblivion, convinced that everything — the world, us, relationships, beauty, hardship, the currents of history — is really just a cosmic joke. Against the nihilist claim that nothing is really of consequence, Catholicism insists that everything is of consequence, because everything has been redeemed by Christ.

And if you believe that, it changes the way you see things. Authority and the sacramental imagination - they change the way everything looks.

Authority: The Reason for Catholicism

A Religious Rule of Law
The debate between Protestants and Catholics primarily concerns authority: is it to be found ultimately in the Church or in the Bible? It would at first glance appear obviously clear that the Protestant answer is correct. The Bible, not an institution or its leaders, should be the believer’s guide in all things. One is then liberated from the arbitrary will of those holding ecclesiastical power.

This is deceiving, however, for the Bible does not plainly interpret itself. There is much that is not just verified but illuminated by a lively history, for Christianity is a religion that necessarily insists upon extraordinary historical claims. If someone, as his own “priest,” can enjoy direct access to the meaning of the text and the will of God absent the guidance of an authoritative body, what are believers to do when unsure of what the Bible means, or when there is sensible, intense, and important disagreement as to interpretation? The standard Protestant answer is that the Holy Spirit will lead the believer toward understanding. Then what criteria are there for determining exactly what the Spirit is saying, or whether He is actually speaking at all?

Here one must inevitably rely upon private judgment. The result, notoriously, has been the splintering of Protestantism into many denominations and subdenominations, not to mention heretical and semi-heretical sects. The Bible says whatever the individual thinks it says, regardless of how ill-educated or bigoted that believer might be and whatever extra-Biblical agenda may unconsciously tiptoe into its reading. Every man becomes, in theory and in practice, his own specialist. As a consequence, there is no real authority at all.

In this way, there is no rule of law in the religious sphere, only lawlessness: the majestic and objective will of God as enshrined in the Bible is in some way tainted by the stunted, subjective preference of the interpreter. The individual is free to establish an institution, thus creating a sphere within which to enforce a will. Such a sphere undermines valuable, valid links to the continuous past, allowing a new order from the ground up on the basis of nothing more than supposed insight. Every sectarian in history has set out to reinvent the theological wheel, promising that in these teachings we have, finally, a truer, more complete understanding of God. “Faith alone” by this approach is the underpinning of knowledge and salvation.

The Catholic view has for many centuries been that the preacher, theologian, or mystical visionary has a solemn duty to test claims against the light of historical reason and against the truths of Scripture. Further, Scripture must be understood, not according to the limited perspective of the reader, but within this light of reason and of the Tradition of which the Bible is the major part, a holy and complex body of teaching passed down from the apostles. Its contents are enlightened by an innumerable number of great figures, all as subject to these formidable spiritual workings as any other believer. The Catholic Church does not create but rather conserves and conveys. Change occurs infrequently, deliberately, gradually, minimally, and always to draw out the implications of what is present rather than introducing the novel and conceivably foreign element.

The authority of councils and popes is like the authority of the watchman guarding a museum whose works he could not have created and would not presume to tamper with. The teachings of a pope are never exactly his teachings. They are instead those of a temporary steward of a 2,000-year old institution. He must submit as dutifully as any of the faithful. Far from an unpredictable if pious administrator, he is the servant and executor of a system he did not make and cannot change. Dishonorable men have occupied the office. He will always lead a collection of sinners unworthy for forgiveness from a holy God. The key distinction of His organized worship is a rule of law, or rather its theological equivalent, at the core of Catholicism. And its rejection is the essence of Protestantism.

Interpretation
In Catholicism there is a mechanism for the application of fundamental principles and beliefs rooted in ancient and incomparable teachings to new circumstances - be they social, political, scientific or technological. For our benefit a broad (and not infrequently very difficult) collection of guidance is preserved most critically in the Bible. Even so, there is through the Catholic Church a basis for concluding “authenticity” far beyond asserting Lutheranism to be more accurately Christian than Calvinism, for example, or a particular view of an important theological subject more genuine, sensible, and religiously legitimate than another.

Protestants must at some point acknowledge the proposition that doctrinal differences are acceptable so long as the “essentials” of faith are right. Yet problems remain, namely which tenets are essential, as well as how they are to apply to a person and a community. There is in Protestantism no adequate defense mechanism against sacrilege. Teachers ever more devout and learned can be found on all sides of key interpretational disputes. The American landscape in particular is littered with houses of worship whose fortunes rise and fall with those of its founder or leader. Even as it is correct to focus on “Jesus as personal Lord and Savior,” it is not sufficient to combat the creeping of heresy.

Catholic theology rests on the authority enshrined to it by Christ to a small number of followers. Concerning Holy Scripture, it offers the most sensible and defensible interpretations of the Bible - the very Bible argued over and presented to believers and the outside world by Catholic bishops beginning in the third century after Christ and formalized more than one thousand years later at the Council of Trent. Consider the following, rich in their “Catholicity.” Christ made statements about the apostles having power to bind and loose (Matt. 16:18 and 18:18) and about their power to forgive sins (John 20:21-23). Further, many of the Catholic distinctions often under criticism are based in the taking of Scripture at face value. “Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you’” (John 6:53); “This is my body . . .” (Luke 22:19); “I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5); “[D]on't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?” (Rom. 6:3); “baptism . . . now saves you . . .” (1 Pet. 3:21); “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven” (John 20:23); “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church” (Matt. 16:18).

Sola Fide & Sola Scriptura
It is beneficial to briefly examine two elementary doctrines of Protestantism: sola fide, the claim that we are saved by faith alone, and sola scriptura, the claim that Christians are to use only the Bible in matters of doctrine and practice. The first is problematic by virtue of passages in Scripture that contradict it. In Romans 2:7, for example, the Apostle Paul tells his readers that God will give the reward of eternal life to those who “seek after glory, honor, and immortality by perseverance in working good.” In Galatians 6:6-10, Paul tells his readers that those who “sow to the Spirit” by “doing good to all” will from the Spirit reap a harvest of eternal life. It is noteworthy that these verses are in Romans and Galatians, the very Epistles on which Protestants claim to base the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

These verses do not mean we earn our salvation by good works, a doctrine many mistakenly attribute to the Catholic Church. They do indicate, though, the “faith alone” formula is not an accurate description of what the Bible teaches about salvation. These passages reveal that, as a result of God's grace, we are capable of doing acts of love that please God. He then freely and undeservedly chooses to reward. One of the rewards, the primary reward, is the gift of eternal life (Rom. 2:6-7). Is it so outlandish to take seriously the very large claim that the Catholic Church is the direct inheritor of the apostles, those granted authority by Christ? Did not the Lord tell that small, carefully chosen community: “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven” (Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18:18)?

Consider also passages like Romans 3:28, where Paul says that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Paul was writing about the Mosaic Law in Romans and Galatians on the notion that it was not necessary to be circumcised to obtain salvation. What Paul writes is true: we are justified by faith apart from works of the Mosaic Law. This would be more obvious to English-speaking readers if translators used the Hebrew word for law, Torah, which is also the name of the first five books of the Bible. They contain the laws of Moses. Paul said, “We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Torah” (Rom. 3:28). Looking at the very next verse proves this: “Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also” (Rom. 3:29).

If Paul did not mean “works of the Torah,” then this question and its answer would be meaningless. By the phrase “works of the Law,” Paul refers to something Jews have but Gentiles do not, the work of the Mosaic Law. He makes this point in the next verse: “Since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised [Jews] on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised [Gentiles] through their faith” (Rom. 3:30). So the “works of the Law” Paul talks about in verse 28 are those works characterizing Jews, not Gentiles, the chief work being circumcision (3:29-30). The Jewish laws of circumcision, ritual purity, kosher dietary prescriptions, and the Jewish festal calendar are, now that we are under the New Covenant in Christ, irrelevant to our salvation. Keeping the ceremonial Law of Moses is not necessary for Christians. What is important is keeping “the law of Christ” (Gal. 6:2), summarized as “faith working through love” (also translated as “faith made effective through love” [Gal. 5:6]). This is the work of the Church.

Luther inserted the word “alone” in his German translation of Romans 3, although he must have known the word “alone” was not in the Greek. Nowhere did the Holy Spirit ever inspire the writers of Scripture to say we’re saved by faith alone. Paul teaches in Galatians sinners are saved by faith working in love. This is the family way. A father doesn’t say to his children, “Since you're my family and all the other kids who are your friends aren’t, you don't have to work or obey; you don’t have to sacrifice because you’re saved. You're going to get the inheritance no matter what you do.” Sola fide and sola scriptura are not demonstrated by the Bible or by the Traditions highlighted by Paul in his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians. They are presuppositions.

Peterine Primacy
In Matthew 16 Christ says, “You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church.” Protestants contend the rock on which the “church” was built is the revelation that Jesus is the Christ. Yet there is a structural feature in the text that requires Peter to be the rock. In Matthew 16:17-19, Jesus makes three statements to Peter: (a) “Blessed are you Simon Bar-Jonah,” (b) “You are Peter,” and (c) “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.” The first statement is clearly a blessing, which magnifies Peter. Christ declares him blessed because he received a special revelation from God. He will further give the keys to the kingdom, also magnifying Peter.

As Christ's first and third statements to Peter are blessings, the middle statement, in its immediate context, is a blessing. In order to defend the view that Peter is not the rock on which the Church is built, one must appeal to a minor difference in the Greek text between the word used for Peter (petros) and the word used for rock (petra). According to the standard anti-Catholic interpretation, petros means “a small stone” while petra means “a large mass of rock;” and the statement “You are Peter (Petros)” should be interpreted as something that stresses Peter's insignificance. They picture Christ as having meant, “You are a small stone, Peter, but I will build my church on this great mass of rock which is the revelation of my identity.”

The problem with this interpretation is that while petros and petra did have these meanings in some Greek poetry, the distinction was gone by the first century when Matthew's Gospel was written. At that time the two words meant the same thing: a rock. Another problem is that when he addressed Peter, Jesus was not speaking Greek, but Aramaic, a cousin language of Hebrew. In Aramaic there is no difference between the two words that in Greek are rendered as petros and petra. They are both kepha; that's why Paul refers to Peter as Cephas (1 Cor. 15:5, Gal. 2:9). What Christ actually said was, “You are kepha and on this kepha I will build my church.” Yet even if the words petros and petra did have different meanings, the Protestant reading of two different “rocks” would still not fit the context. The second statement to Peter would be something that minimized or diminished him, pointing out his insignificance. Jesus would be saying, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, you are an insignificant pebble. Here are the keys to the kingdom of heaven.” Such a sequence of statements would have been not merely odd, but inexplicable.

Notice how the Lord's three statements to Peter had two parts. The second parts explain the first. The reason Peter was “blessed” was because “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (v.17). The meaning of the name change, “You are rock,” is explained by the promise, “On this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (v.18). The purpose of the keys is explained by Jesus’ commission, “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (v.19). A careful reading of these three statements, paying attention to their immediate context and interrelatedness, demonstrates that Peter was the rock about which Jesus spoke. This is what an unbiased reader looking at the grammar and literary structure of the text should conclude.

If Peter is the rock, he was the head apostle. The Greek text reveals that Peter alone was singled out for this praise, and he alone was given the special authority symbolized by the keys of the kingdom of heaven. The other disciples of Jesus also shared in a more general sense Peter's authority of binding and loosing (Matt. 18:18). Yet if he was the head apostle, then once Christ had ascended into heaven Peter would have been the earthly head of the Church, subordinate to Christ's heavenly headship as the great lawgiver and sustainer of grace. He was the leader not only of believers in the capital of the Roman Empire, martyred by the mad tyrant Nero, but the founder of the community from which believers from all over the world took authoritative guidance. The practices of the Church today are a continuation of this crucial early Christian development.

The Sacramental
There is a sacramental principle found throughout the Bible. In both the Old and the New Testament there are incidents where God uses physical methods to convey grace. One striking example is the woman suffering hemorrhage. “When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, because she thought, ‘If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.’ Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?’ ‘You see the people crowding against you,’ his disciples answered, ‘and yet you can ask, “Who touched me?”’ But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. He said to her, ‘Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering’” (Mark 5:27-34).

This passage contains all the elements of sacramental principle: the woman's faith, the physical method (touching the clothes), and the supernatural power that went out from Jesus. When the woman came up to Him and with faith touched His garment, the power of God was sent forth and she was healed. This is how the sacraments work. God uses physical signs (water, oil, bread, wine, the laying on of hands) as vehicles of grace, which we receive in faith.

Another passage that highlights the sacramental manner in which God gives us His grace is 1 Peter 3:20-21. “God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also; not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” The meaning of Peter's statement, “baptism now saves you,” is clear from the context of the passage. He’s referring to the sacrament of water baptism, because he says eight people were “saved through water.” The merely physical effects of water in baptism are unimportant. What counts is the action of the Holy Spirit though baptism, as we “pledge . . . a good conscience toward God,” (that is, we make a baptismal pledge of repentance) and are saved “by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

St. Thomas Aquinas writes we are not merely spiritual beings but physical creatures also. It is fitting for God to give us the gift of grace through the physical. Even Luther recognized this. In his Short Catechism, he states baptism “works the forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal salvation to all who believe.” He ignored the Biblical evidence for five of the seven sacraments (retaining baptism and the Lord's Supper). Most Protestants lost even Luther’s view of the sacraments as a transfer of grace, departing from the Biblical teaching that “baptism now saves you.”

God sometimes gives saving grace apart from baptism (Acts 10), but He ordained the act of baptism. Peter told the crowd on the day of Pentecost, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Paul was told at his baptism, “And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16). It is right for worship to be anchored in these conduits of grace.

The Covenantal
Scripture presents God as a covenantal Creator. Catholicism, through the Sacraments, presents this truth more fully. Take as an example the Sacrament of Marriage. The marital act is not just a physical act; it’s a spiritual act that God has designed by which the marital covenant is renewed. And in all covenants there is opportunity for renewal, for the act of covenant rebirth is a moment of grace. Grace is life; grace is power; grace is God's own love.

From the marital covenant God has engineered the marital act to show the life-giving power of love. God has desired that when the two become one, they become one so that nine months later a name might be bestowed. The conceived child embodies the oneness God has made. He said as the earth was formed, “Let us make man in our image and likeness.” God, who is three in one, made man, male and female, and commended them to this union. The two do become one, a third gift of life in the family unit. They are, by the grace of God, three in one.

The Catholic Church is the lone Christian tradition on earth long insistent of this teaching, one beautifully revealed in Scripture. In the 1920s, revivalist polygamist movements spread like wildfire across Utah and continue strongly. In the 1930s, the Anglican Church began to allow contraception. Shortly thereafter, almost every mainline Protestant denomination caved in to the mounting pressure of the sexual revolution. By the 1970s, the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America endorsed not only contraception and abortion on demand, but their federal funding. Even if others do not go quite that far, there is within Protestantism little stringency against the strong forces of human devaluation and in favor of the sanctity of life. This is an abomination.

Unyielding Christian truth, a strong pro-life stand and the long-held teaching that marriage is indissoluble – firmly against the prevailing winds of what is popular, even as most denominations are incapable of taking position on the most basic of moral issues – are signs the Catholic Church is founded upon ancient religious belief, the internalization of actual, supernatural events. There is solidity and consistency because the foundation is firm. Personal reconciliation of difficult but wholly orthodox Christian doctrine requires the subordination of sovereignty in judgment from the individual to the voice of Christ in the Church He founded.

In Protestantism the idea of covenant is understood as synonymous with contract. You give God your sin; He gives you Christ. Covenant, however, differs from a contract as marriage differs from prostitution. In a contract property is exchanged, whereas in a covenant persons are exchanged. In a contract individuals say, “This is yours and that is mine,” but Scripture shows how in a covenant one must say, “I am yours and you are mine.” When God makes a covenant with us, He says, “I will be your God and you will be my people.” ‘Am,’ the Hebrew word for people, literally means kinsman, family: I will be your God and father; you will be my family, my sons and my daughters, my household. Covenants form kinship bonds, which forges familial communion with God.

Christian covenant with Divinity signifies sonship. For Luther and much of Protestantism, God is a judge, the covenant a courtroom scene whereby all are guilty criminals. And since Christ endured punishment, righteousness is the exchange for sins. Many Protestants view salvation as not unlike legal maneuvering, the bargain of sin for Christ. But for Paul in Romans, for Paul in Galatians, salvation is much more. It isn't strictly an exchange afforded by the ultimate authority figure, as the covenant doesn't point to a courtroom so much as to a family room. God is not a detached judge; God is the Father who renders fatherly judgments. Christ is not just someone who represents an innocent victim under affliction for our penalty; He is the firstborn among all brethren. By this covenant Christ doesn't intervene only in a legal sense. He offers, by the chosen path of humanity, His own sonship so that we may become children of God through His righteousness.

Scripture
To return to the Protestant ideal of the Bible as the final, fundamental authority of Christian orthodoxy, there is the question of how we can know which books belong in the Bible. Certain books of the New Testament, such as the synoptic gospels, present reliable historical accounts of Jesus’ life, but there are a number of New Testament books (Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation) whose authorship and canonical status were debated in the early Church. And eventually it was the Church, a unified Christian association working under the Holy Spirit through councils, deciding in their favor and including them in the canon of inspired books. How may a person two thousand years removed from these writings have any possibility of proving them genuinely apostolic? It is simplistic yet little exaggeration to assert that all must take the Church’s word.

This is to say that for one vital Christian inquiry – the notion of what Scripture is – one must trust the Church (pre-schism communities under the direction of Rome). The key point is that there is no way to show from within Scripture itself what the books of the Bible should be. The “Bible only” theory is self-refuting. Scripture offers no indication of which books belong. The canon was not settled until many centuries after the last apostle died. And only one entity had the unquestioned authority to settle questions of divine inspiration. Until the temporal tensions of East and West Roman Empire and of European princes grasping for power tore Christian-based politics apart, remarkable theological concord was a rule of Christianity, not the exception. Rome played no small part in shaping and sheltering Scripture.

The Insufficient
It is not enough to belong to a church for habit, the worship service, or the pastor. These are easy, undemanding preferences. Belonging to a community beyond personal inclination, where authority is present, valid, and necessary, is a gift from God. This Church stands in marked contrast to a Presbyterianism far too easily a victim to fashionable cultural change, a Baptist tradition that defines itself by autonomy, resulting in considerable doctrinal distinctions, an Anglicanism teetering towards chaos and schism for homosexuality, or a Methodist form of worship inadvertently born of Wesley’s desire to reform, and stay within, Anglicanism. The Catholic Church was not created by a rejection, a reactionary definition set against; its authority comes from God, through His blessedly chosen representatives, not men and their preferences.

Protestant denominations are an association of like-minded Christians. They are human creations, a group gathered together to express, “we are a church.” No matter how strong the theological foundation, there remains a key reason for separation: teaching according to a certain way of belief (usually that of the pastor). The Church was meant to have unity in structure and faith, from the time Christ prayed for his followers to be one, and from the time Paul spread the seed of truth in his letters, writing that God’s household was “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone” (Eph. 2:20). There is little need for a mystical religious body if truths might be navigated through fracture-prone denominations and their leading personalities. Yet social customs and celebrity are hardly satisfactory for a more complete Christian life. And if a church body cannot claim to be critical for spiritual guidance, what need beyond material care is there for its existence? Should an institution teach the young in faith with authority, it must have authority in its very being.

The More Sufficient
There are, then, two options: congregationalism (in which each gathering of Christians filter and shape essentials) or Catholicism. The latter is based upon a divinely-charged principle of unity and time-tested historical validity. Congregationalism offers nothing like these two great strengths. The Councils of Nicaea are far more relevant to Christians today than the National Council of Churches. And now, as yesterday, only the Catholic Church imparts unity on a global scale. The alternative, through history to the present, is doctrinal chaos and disunity. When Protestants decided through private judgments which parts of the Catholic faith to keep and which to reject, did they intend for their successors to so vehemently and schismatically continue a process of revision, the results constantly codified as revealed truth?

The great guardian against Islamic invasion, Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, declared that it is untenable for an ill-tempered, unbalanced, and unhappy monk to be right in his opinion while the whole of Christendom should be in error for well over a thousand years. The present inheritors of Luther, fewer and fewer of whom adhere to the church organized in his honor, are mired deep in the modern mental disease of assuming human intellect and insight only increase as eras fade. To wash the mind in Christian history is to be cleansed from the fractious existence of the church-shopping Protestant.

Since the excesses of the Reformation, the authority of the Catholic Church has been replaced by the arbitrary authority of schismatic individuals, and not infrequently for personal gain. In some once-Christian denominations, such as the Unitarians, the descent into confusion allowed for revealed truths to be eclipsed by the conviction there are no moral absolutes. More recently, absurd yet commercially successful theories of the end times and charismatic “word of faith” preachers test the edge of elementary Christian belief. The Church’s religious authority, when supplanted by personas, in due course devolves into an organized unit of the like-minded circling fads. The result is not simply believing differently yet remaining under God’s providence. Much of what has passed through the generations is a milieu Christian only in name and devoid of confidence in certainty and wisdom.

Catholicism is thus the most complete and vital form of Christianity. Despite its many human faults, the Catholic Church stands alone among assorted Christian societies as a truly global institution and the direct inheritor of Christ’s religious commands. It reflects the way He works, and spoke for more than one thousand years through the inevitable, shameful sins of Christian humanity as a unified voice. It still does, despite serious divisions among Christ’s followers. Nevertheless, God still calls us to Him through the sacraments. There is no intimidating, authoritarian chain of command prompting self-consciousness among Catholic faithful about presenting a petition directly before Him or calling upon Him as Father. The Communion of the Saints, seen and unseen, enriches spiritual relationships. For if I try to relate on my own, of my own initiative, the bond is subject to my limitations. But if I relate to Him as part of a formal fellowship with other believers, founded by Christ, then my personal association is vastly expanded by that interaction. Such is the work of a universal Church.
Notafraid
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Redstone

quote:

This is deceiving, however, for the Bible does not plainly interpret itself.


Thy word…..is a darkness unto my feet, and I need another guide unto my path…

"A sound mind, and one which does not expose its possessor to danger, and is devoted to piety and the love of truth, will eagerly meditate upon those things which God has placed within the power of mankind, and has subjected to our knowledge, and will make advancement in acquaintance with them, rendering the knowledge of them easy to him by means of daily study. These things are such as fall plainly under our observation, and are clearly and unambiguously in express terms set forth in the Sacred Scriptures....the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels, can be clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously understood by all" - Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 2:27:1-2)

"All things are dear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain." - John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Thessalonians, 3, v. 5)

"The religious perspicuity of the ancient Scriptures caused them [the Arians] no shame, nor did the consentient doctrine of our colleagues concerning Christ keep in check their audacity against Him." - Alexander of Alexandria (Epistles on the Arian Heresy and the Deposition of Arius, 1:10)
titan
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quote:
For the most part the limitations of a liturgical calendar that keeps them perpetually out of certain scriptures leaves many of them somewhat ignorant of many biblical doctrines.


Lol. While I believe that also, to a point, it also transpires that the real key is that Catholic `method' seems to rely on parishioners seeking out theological instruction. As I said, in much of Protestant `method' it "comes to you" -- in the sermon itself, because the sermon dominates the whole `massing' (to use a word form that explains what all that is at a glance). In Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Episcopalian, ?Lutheran, its a Liturgy too, as well as congregating.

The catch-22 is, in general Catholic experience, that same Catholic doesn't KNOW or really "hear" about `a theology' that needs to even be delved into --- so said classes are attended infrequently. That's why when Protestants then `carpet bomb' certain specifics, you get all this `over the map' stuff. But it turns out it doesn't reflect a genuine disarray in doctrine.

It is directly comparable to my earlier analogy that Americans today are not `schooled' accurately about global context. Its the whole *delivery* that is flawed, not the facts, and this is actually easily fixed, if not quickly.

What the Protestants in turn overlook is this here is precisely true of them too, as well:
quote:
Looking for unity has changed them somewhat, just as critical scholarly confrontation with Protestantism has had an impact as well. Note that not all RCs are the same, and there are a wide range of personalities, and laypersons that might have a diverse set of things that they personally emphasize (some even the doctrines of Grace, and the gospel), either due to personal uniqueness, or the particular teaching at the local parish.


Neither side is arguing the 1500's precisely any more. Both have shifted. Some of the Protestants have gone total pelagian almost. RC *delivery to the lay* does tend to semi-pelagian, but that is because it is just being heard ad-hoc.

The key to the Reformation is that it was more Catholic than not, but embodied certain "deal-breaker" aspects that had to be walled against when pushed, and that's what still continues. For purposes of open debate, I think its fair to question what the heck is going on in the 20th century since Vatican I. But its separate from the question of determining if the Reformers were right in all things .

quote:
The one unifying force, is commitment to, and loyalty to mother Church. An attack on her, is often seen as a direct attack on their own faith and on Christ himself.


A form of patriotism perhaps; but really just driven by the belief that its more right than wrong. Problem is, most lay Catholics aren't "armed" the way Protestant ones are, for general discussion.

This phenomena is hard to pick up on, but strikingly obvious once named and observed.

Redstone,
The length only means nees to be read thoughtfully. Doing so.
Redstone
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The Bible is the word of God. That said:

post some verses that will definitively settle these issues, hotly and frequently debated by Christians of good will on this board, and many places elsewhere:

- Creation/evolution/combos of both/the geological record

- Jews/the Torah

- Salvation/once saved always saved/the nature and mysteries of Grace

- Mary/Apostles/Saints

- How to pray/how to worship

- Baptism/infant baptism

- End Times
Notafraid
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Redstone


Please allow me to help you clear up some errors you have that you think prot’s believe, … I am a little sleepy, and don’t have time to go over all of it, but I did read this…


quote:

Sola Fide & Sola Scriptura
It is beneficial to briefly examine two elementary doctrines of Protestantism: sola fide, the claim that we are saved by faith alone, and sola scriptura, the claim that Christians are to use only the Bible in matters of doctrine and practice. The first is problematic by virtue of passages in Scripture that contradict it. In Romans 2:7, for example, the Apostle Paul tells his readers that God will give the reward of eternal life to those who “seek after glory, honor, and immortality by perseverance in working good.”.


I don’t beleive you understand Sola Fide, or Sola Scriptura… Sola Fide simply means “We are Justified by Faith Alone”, not that we do no good things, or anything like that… Justification meaning to be declared righteous before the Father (As Romans 4 describes) You appear to be taking Sola Fide as some kind of a statement that we are “Saved by Faith alone”, but that is not the meaning at all.. Prots agree that the full orbed view of our salvation also includes God’s purpose of having good works prepared for us to do, and that there are even heavenly rewards associated with them, but we do not say that we are declared righteous by them, nor do I think Roma is saying that, at least not in that Joint Declaration where they seemed that we did have the view right, but seemed to assume that there was come confusion about the language and what we perceived a justified person would do – That being: Live to the Glory of God, and walking with Him and working in His kingdom.

It also looks from the Sola Scriptura part that you are importing the concept of “Solo Scriptura” … The Reformers quoted the Church Fathers constantly, so there is no need to speak as if the Bible was the only thing that they appealed to in an authoritative manor… I can in fact Quote you several Church fathers that support the view of the supremacy of Scripture as the rule of faith, and that which is to be appealed to by councils, and such…
Lex Orandi l Lex Credendi
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Notafraid-
quote:
For the most part the limitations of a liturgical calendar that keeps them perpetually out of certain scriptures leaves many of them somewhat ignorant of many biblical doctrines.

My screen name attests to the fact that in the catholic faith, we express our theology through worship, and our theology is explained through participation in worship. For that reason, I agree with the advice that WHOO02P! gave above regarding not learning about Catholicism from a non-Catholic source. Because that worship and theology imparts experiental as well as factual knowledge, no amount of reading about Catholic practice and faith can subsitute for knowledge of the Church.

Would you care to explain what doctrines, exactly, that the Church throughout the ages has failed to teach by neglecting these "certain scriptures"?
titan
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Lex Orandi,
quote:
Would you care to explain what doctrines, exactly, that the Church throughout the ages has failed to teach by neglecting these "certain scriptures"?


I think the catch is more immediate. The Church has not failed to teach "throughout the ages" -- but look at this *decade* of this century, and the one prior. Is it possibly failing to `teach' these clearly now, apart from blunt prouncements. I mean the theology?

Wouldn't you agree the `routine and lay' view of our parishioners is rather surface as a rule, and very much thinking in terms of a series of `dos and don't's and not even that aware of the `role of grace' and `justification' argument that was involved in the Reformation?

Don't you hear it instead in terms of Luther et al, as `just rebels', or such?

THEN you talk here, or with schooled Catholics, and it all changes, and they give as good as get.

But think about that `lay disconnect'. That's what that refers to I think. I observed it personally.

[This message has been edited by titan (edited 4/1/2005 12:53a).]
titan
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Notafraid,

quote:
You appear to be taking Sola Fide as some kind of a statement that we are “Saved by Faith alone”, but that is not the meaning at all..


Likewise, surely you realize there are *alot* of Prots that *do* think that -- up to a declaration perhaps sufficing --- and what of the health/wealth gospel group?

quote:
Prots agree that the full orbed view of our salvation also includes God’s purpose of having good works prepared for us to do, and that there are even heavenly rewards associated with them, but we do not say that we are declared righteous by them,


I think some clearly do. The emphasis on works in much of American Christian dialog is overwhelming if you step outside Presbyterian.

quote:
nor do I think Roma is saying that, at least not in that Joint Declaration where they seemed that we did have the view right, but seemed to assume that there was come confusion about the language and what we perceived a justified person would do – That being: Live to the Glory of God, and walking with Him and working in His kingdom.


That's pretty true. Rome isn't saying that either.
Redstone
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notafriad,

"saved" and "justified" were meant to be synonymous, because those that are saved are justified in the Father's eyes by Christ...I believe they are very nearly synonymous, but if you have a good argument why they are not, I am certainly open to it.

Regarding Sola Scriptura, I understand that early Protestants quoted Church fathers frequently. The point remains, however, that they disagreed on Scripture, quite a lot. Otherwise, would there have been so many splits, splits within splits, and on and on? Remember that the Congregationalists and the Unitarians, among others, were once mainstream Christian. But they long ago came to disdain those that took Scripture too seriously, too "literally."
Notafraid
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Titan,

quote:

Likewise, surely you realize there are *alot* of Prots that *do* think that -- up to a declaration perhaps sufficing --- and what of the health/wealth gospel group?


Well, I must say that they are not far off by articulating the gospel this way, that it is looking to the promises of God alone that Justifies them, and that one who is justified is saved. They have simplified it, and yes many of them are Antinomian. The actual health and wealth groups tend to have doctrines based around faith checking accounts, and such, which is even further out, but really my statement was a direct addressing of his statements in context. He was speaking of Luther in the part that I read, and appeared to be accusing him of a Solo Scriptura.
Notafraid
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Redstone

quote:

"saved" and "justified" were meant to be synonymous, because those that are saved are justified in the Father's eyes by Christ...I believe they are very nearly synonymous, but if you have a good argument why they are not, I am certainly open to it.


Well they are two different words, and you are right in that they seem used interchangeably at times, except if we are being precise in our language because we are playing at being theologians. The Word saved in the sense that God saves us and takes us to heaven, can mean his whole election, calling, our conversion, our adoption, sanctification, and eventual glorification.

It can also refer to the saving Work that Christ did in coming to earth, fulfilling the law, dying on the cross, atoning for us, and being a propitiation for us, and rising again that we who are united to him might also rise in newness of life… We might be saying all or part of that when we say “Jesus Saves us”

Justification speaks specifically of the righteousness of Christ, that we are Justified by faith, is that we are declared righteous before the father because of the merits of Christ. That we are given His righteous record, in exchange for our unrighteousness which he bore in the cross. This Justification is about us being made right with God, and it was what was confused in the Medieval church when Luther came along.

The reason the words can not be used exactly interchangeably when we are speaking of theological specifics, is we would be sloppy theologians for doing so. Really it is our union with Christ that causes us to receive our Justification, but we need not mistake His going to the Cross to atone and propitiate our sins as the whole of His work for our redemption, because it is the fact that he is raised form the dead that means that we will be raised also.

quote:

Regarding Sola Scriptura, I understand that early Protestants quoted Church fathers frequently. The point remains, however, that they disagreed on Scripture, quite a lot. Otherwise, would there have been so many splits, splits within splits, and on and on? Remember that the Congregationalists and the Unitarians, among others, were once mainstream Christian. But they long ago came to disdain those that took Scripture too seriously, too "literally."


Yes, well my only point was that what I had read sounded like you were saying that Luther had no other authority to appeal to whatsoever, like he was a Bible alone kind of guy making decisions in a vacuum. This was a split in the scholarship of the church, not just one guy who was a pied piper drawing blind fools away. As far as the splits, look in RCism at things like Our Mother of Guadalupe, or at people like Mel Gibson who would call the current pope Anti-Pope, or the Semi-Pelagians against those who are more Thomistic… They all can’t be right, and the only umbrella holding them together is they all submit to call themselves Roman Catholic. The splits of doctrine are just as defined, only each RC himself might hold a variant view of specific things. I believe that there are probably even more variant views under Rcism than under Protestantism. The difference being that RCism aligns under the authority of a single hierarchical organization, and Prots align under one Gospel, and one spiritual kingdom.
Notafraid
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Redstone

quote:

Here one must inevitably rely upon private judgment. The result, notoriously, has been the splintering of Protestantism into many denominations and subdenominations, not to mention heretical and semi-heretical sects. The Bible says whatever the individual thinks it says, regardless of how ill-educated or bigoted that believer might be and whatever extra-Biblical agenda may unconsciously tiptoe into its reading. Every man becomes, in theory and in practice, his own specialist. As a consequence, there is no real authority at all.


I will say that even some COC groups have doctrinal standards by which their pastors call the congregation to, but this statement is absolutely not true of Reformed theology, and so your argument in the form of an altruism is incorrect.


I simply do not have enough time to correct the many errors in your whole, but I think it's a starting point.. I think you need to tweak it some based on some of the conversations what we have had. Basically I see an unbalanced rush to assert one thing, and condemn another, and so the emphasis appears to be on accomplishing that over seeking or saying the truth, which does not make for as strong an argument towards the agenda of exalting RCism over Prots. It’s more propaganda than apologetic.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/1/2005 9:27a).]
Notafraid
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Lex

quote:

Would you care to explain what doctrines, exactly, that the Church throughout the ages has failed to teach by neglecting these "certain scriptures"?



See Titan's words... Also think of it... If only 20% of the bible is being read in the Liturgical calendars readings, that alone is kind of forcing one to teach on only specific things. There is a limiting of the Holy Spirit to work with a specific congregation on specific issues. If the monsignor has something on his heart for that particular body under his care, he is in some ways bound from it. It just seems to rigid and systematic to force only this or that be read on a particular day. God works more organically , naturally and subjectively than that. I would say that in this case, the dependence and focus on the order and dispensation of the earthly hierarchy has produced a limiting effect causing a quenching the work of the Spirit.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/1/2005 9:48a).]
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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quote:
Where as in Protestantism, we view salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, ...


Come on, there is a false premise implied in that statement. Catholics believe the same thing, but it's not as simple as your statement might seem to make it. I can't do anything to merit my salvation. If I do anything that is worthy in the eyes of God, it is because of the grace he imparts on me. We receive grace through the sacraments, but only if we have faith. We are forgiven not because we earn it by participating in the sacraments. We are forgiven because we are called by God's grace to participate in faith in the sacraments. And, as we participate faithfully in the sacraments, we receive more of God's grace.

The better way to describe the difference from the Catholic perspective is that non-Catholics get all their "sacramental" grace at one time, whereas Catholics get it in doses over the course of a lifetime. Our salvation is a process whereas protestant salvation is an event. Neither theological school believes that we do anything of our own that is worthy in the eyes of God unless it is first derived of God's grace.

The sacraments are means for us to receive God's grace. They are not human inventions intended to make us look good in God's eyes.
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