Fragments of Herodian Era (est. 30BC) Manuscript Reported Pesherim of 1 Enoch

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codker92
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[url=https://www.galaxie.com/article/tynbul64-1-06][/url] Evil is temporary; righteousness is forever. God's revelation will not be hidden or censored. The righteous remnant will always remain. This is what the Book of Enoch teaches. But the book was never given the status of scripture in western christianity despite its status as scripture in the Ethiopian Orhtodox Church and despite the existance of Greek Manuscripts of the text. As early as 200AD there was alrreaddy a dispute between western Christians about whether Enoch was scripture. TTertullian wrote in On the Apparel of Women 1.3 that Christians who do not receive Enoch as Scriptures should be reprimanded and says that Chrisitans shouldd not reject the text merely because the Jews rejected dthe text. This is fascinating in part, because not all of the Jews rejected 1 Enoch. There is evidence certain Jews during the second temple period wrote commentaries on the Book of Enoch and consideredd it scripture.

A Pesherim is a commentary or official interpretation of a text. Pesherim were typically created for prophetic books and there are surviving pesherim for nearly all books of what is called the prophets of the Old Testament. Pesherim were not made for the Torah, first five books of the bible. But, pesherim were not made for books which were not considered inspired scripture. Of course, at this time, the idea of a "canon" in the Latin sense did not exist. But, the second temple communities, which had limited resources, only made pesherim commentaries for the most sacred texts. Generally if a pesherim exists, the text for the pesherim is almost always found in both all western christian bibles today. But there are a few exceptions. The most intriguing is a fragment of an alleged pesherim for the book of enoch. If such a fragment does exist, then it would tend to show that at least some people living during Jesus's day considered the book of enoch scirpture and inspired. Enough people read it for there to be official interpretations of the text.

The Israel Antiquities Society came to decipher a fragment of a manuscript they catalog as"4QPesher on the Apocalypse of Weeks". https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive/manuscript/4Q247-1?locale=en_US The Apocalypse of Weeks is a section of 1 Enoch 93:1-10 an 91:11-17.. https://www.galaxie.com/article/tynbul64-1-06 Of course, there is a disagreement about what the fragment shows. All scholars agree the fragment exists and date it to the Herodian period, but they disagree about whether it is actually a pesherim. The Israel Antiquites Society maintains it is a fragment of a pesherim. Shani Tzoref argues the fragment is just an interpretation of a historical period, and not an official pesherim. https://www.academia.edu/47571358/Pesher_and_Periodization While scholars disagree about what the fragment shows, they do agree that if the document is a pesherim, that would bee significant evidence that Enochic literatre was authoritative during the Herodian period. https://www.asau.ru/files/pdf/2344049.pdf?utm_source

Regardless of your tradition, the discovery of this fragment is significant to understand the context of the New Testament and what people in the second temple period were reading during Jesus's time. The Apocalpyse of weeks teaches that evil is temporary and righteousness is forever. The discovery of Enochic material at Qumran tends tot show the New Testament texts of revelattion and Hebrews drew heavily upon them and included remarkably similiar symbolic structures. https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-temple-according-to-1-enoch?utm_source=chatgpt.com This then creates the question of qhether
CrackerJackAg
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I think it would help your post and discussion engagement quite a bit if you would type authentic and original thoughts to engage people before copy and pasting junk like that.

I don't wanna have to decipher where it is that you're coming from before I decide whether or not I want to engage in a conversation.

Short, interesting tidbits to start the conversation with a novel take of your own. Possibly engaging the crowd with an interesting question.

I don't know what your position on all the stuff you're typing is. I don't know if I'm supposed to be like "yeah that's lunacy" or if I'm supposed to be like "finally somebody that figured it out"

You post like a madman and I think it lessens engagement.

If your goal is engagement…
codker92
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CrackerJackAg said:

I think it would help your post and discussion engagement quite a bit if you would type authentic and original thoughts to engage people before copy and pasting junk like that.

I don't wanna have to decipher where it is that you're coming from before I decide whether or not I want to engage in a conversation.

Short, interesting tidbits to start the conversation with a novel take of your own. Possibly engaging the crowd with an interesting question.

I don't know what your position on all the stuff you're typing is. I don't know if I'm supposed to be like "yeah that's lunacy" or if I'm supposed to be like "finally somebody that figured it out"

You post like a madman and I think it lessens engagement.

If your goal is engagement…

I appreciate your response and I think your point is clear. But I am curious about whether your opinion about the post would change depending on which position I take? In other words, is your criticism that I present information without stating my own personal opinion, or would that criticism change depending on whether my conclusion that Enoch should be regarded as scripture or that it should not be regarded as scripture?

I am genuinely asked because I am interested in whether you think informational posts are really the issue or whether you have an issue with the conclusion the data i presented supports?
CrackerJackAg
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I think what information is presented, depending on the lens that you're looking at it can make you interpret it in multiple different ways.

I'm going to have my previous biases or information that I bring to the discussion influence that for sure.

I also think knowing the lens that the other person is looking through is what helps engage discussion.

Knowing some ones thoughts or specifically what it is that they find interesting helps lead the discussion.

I think you clearly have a lot of thoughts and you've given a lot of thought to this, but I see the post you make and I'm not sure how to engage with you on them.

My thoughts are not criticisms, but more seeking a way to engage with you as I think you're probably fairly intelligent and worth the discussion even if I don't agree.



codker92
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CrackerJackAg said:

I think what information is presented, depending on the lens that you're looking at it can make you interpret it in multiple different ways.

I'm going to have my previous biases or information that I bring to the discussion influence that for sure.

I also think knowing the lens that the other person is looking through is what helps engage discussion.

Knowing some ones thoughts or specifically what it is that they find interesting helps lead the discussion.

I think you clearly have a lot of thoughts and you've given a lot of thought to this, but I see the post you make and I'm not sure how to engage with you on them.

My thoughts are not criticisms, but more seeking a way to engage with you as I think you're probably fairly intelligent and worth the discussion even if I don't agree.





Regardless, I am not really interested in arguing over whether western Christianity should start including the Book of Enoch in their bibles. Whether they like or not, it is already in there.

I think finding any Enochic material preserved alongside what western christians would today call scripture is signficant, regardless of whether that material is a pesher or not. Regardless of whether we care about the book of enoch, the people God chose to write the new testament (and probably some of the more recent Old Testament works) read the Book of Enoch and drew heavily from it. Once I read the book of Enoch, I found connections between it and many of the New Testament ideas and even connections within the OT explaining concepts I would not have otherwise found without it. I was hesitant to rely on the Book at first, but I came to understand that the Book of Enoch is contained within God's Law, but that it is concealed. But, the Book of Enoch is but a chapter or generation within a larger work which I am not aware is revealed.

LOOK: Genesis 5:1 says this is the book of the generations of Adam. The text is not just describing the genealogy, it is literally describing a Book called the generations of Adam. Enoch is a generation in that book and God's law describes God teaching Enoch directly. Enoch in hebrew is Hanokh. The exact same consonants appear in Proverbs 22:6 which say train a youth hanokh in the way he should go. Enoch's name in hebrew is the root word for dedication, the same root word for Hanukkah. Proverbs then also says train Enoch (literally the man Enoch from Genesis) in the way he should go. Genesis 5:21 says God took Enoch with him. Therefore, Enoch was taken by God to the heavenly realm and taught heavenly mysteries. Even the word took has meaning here. Enoch did not die, God took him. The hebrew word took (laqach) has the same root for the word teach (leqah) found in Proverbs 4:2. There the word means instruction learning. So you could rightly say Genesiss 5:24 says Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God taught him. The generation of Enoch is a generation within the Book of the Generations of Adam which is found in God's law.

Like I said, I am not really interesting in debating the latin concept of canon. What I think is a better topic is discussing how the ideas in the book of enoch overlap with the same concepts applied to Christ in the new testament. The Books of Enoch eventually identify Enoch with Metatron. Second Temple Judaism had a concept of a second power in heaven, which was God's messenger on earth. It is found in Exodus 23:20-21. Its the name theology. I am not arguing that this proves Metatron is Christ or that later Hekhalot texts should be read back into the new testament.

The older Enochic tradition has striking similarities to new testament christology. Enoch ascends to heaven; so does Jesus. Enoch becomes heavenly or supercharged by God; so doess Christ. Enoch as Metatron sits near God's throne; Jesus sit's at God's right hand. Enoch gets a cool name Metatron; Jesus gets a cool "Name above every Name" etc. Metatron/Enoch ahve heavenly authority; Christ gets universal authority. Metatron is associatedd with judgment; Christ is associated dwith Judgment. Metatron is a heavenly mediator; Chrsti is a mediator. Enoch is connected with the son of man; Jesus is connected with the son of man.

What is most interestiing though, is that both the Enochic traddition and the Christology very well likely came from the same second temple concepts and Jewish traditions concerning exaltedd heavenly mediators. I ddon't think this proves that Metatron is Jesus. But it shows that early Jewish and Christian traditions were working with the same exact concepts of divine messengers, name bearing, son of man imagery, and human/heavenly transformation. The difference is in HOW the agents got their authority. The Christian tradition held Jesus earned his authority through sacrifice, but the Jewish tradition says Enoch got his authority by studying from God.

So to answer your question. That is a short summary of the lense I am working through right now. that is of couruse a very abridged summary.

Given that Second Temple Jews already had a concept of a heavenly son of man as a preexistant/chosen enthroned by God who could forgive sins, why do you thiink the same ideas produced Calcedonian Tradition in the latin tradition but did not in the Ethiopian tradition? Would you find the ideas in Enoch 1 more persuasive if the concepts were preserved in Christian, Jewish, and Islamic traditions or interpretation?
CrackerJackAg
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Ok, I understand what you are driving at.

It's a really interesting question that I feel like I only have a partial understanding of and we all know the devil is in the details and I want to be able to articulate what I'm fairly certain is my best answer but I'm not able to confidently state it in a way you would find interesting or deep.

I'll come back to you in a few days with a thoughtful reply.

Thanks for your patience and clarifying statements.

You have researched pretty obscure (to most people anyway) elements of Second Temple Jewish literature and mysticism.

In the mean time do you mind telling me how you got into this "rabbit hole" and why it interests you?

Is this part of your faith or is it more historically or secularly interesting?

I'd like to know why this topic is so important to you.
codker92
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CrackerJackAg said:

Ok, I understand what you are driving at.

It's a really interesting question that I feel like I only have a partial understanding of and we all know the devil is in the details and I want to be able to articulate what I'm fairly certain is my best answer but I'm not able to confidently state it in a way you would find interesting or deep.

I'll come back to you in a few days with a thoughtful reply.

Thanks for your patience and clarifying statements.

You have researched pretty obscure (to most people anyway) elements of Second Temple Jewish literature and mysticism.

In the mean time do you mind telling me how you got into this "rabbit hole" and why it interests you?

Is this part of your faith or is it more historically or secularly interesting?

I'd like to know why this topic is so important to you.

Solomon himself only had partial understanding of God's law. So, if you wait until you fully understand then you will never start. I have already shown that God will put his words in people's mouths, so you don't need to worry about having a full understanding. I am not talking about something goofy like speaking in tongues. God will put a word in your mouth for edification, whether your own or someone else. The word may or may not be new. But if you speak a word from God never spoken before, that word will go to heaven and appear before God and he will adorn that word and use it to create a new heavens and earth.

I already have answers (answers at least in my mind based upon my review of God's law) to the questions I asked you. The point of this discussion not merely to be interesting. Of course, I keep my hobby study of scripture to topics that interest me. If you think you have something different than what I asked that you think would be interesting then by all means.

This particular "rabbit hole" started when I was reviewing another post which said that official infallible tradition/interpretation is distinct from scripture. Then, I reviewed another post which said that only scripture could be infallible. I reviewed God's law and saw that everything contained within heavens and earth is found within his law. On an unrelated note, this is based on the argument (which i have not explained) that the prophets are contained with God's law as well -- but lets not digress. Therefore, I read God's word in Isaiah. That word said that God is putting words in people's mouths to establish the heavens and earths God is creating with them. If the prophets are contained within God's law and God's words are contained within the prophets then every single word God has ever placed within a person's mouth is found within his law. I compared this with the posts that said infallible tradition/interpretation is distinct from God's law and another post which said only scripture is infallible. I won't go as far to say that the posts were wrong, but I was unsure how to reconcile both posts with God being infallible and placing his words in people's mouths. If the official tradition/interpretation is truly infallible, it must be from God, but for the tradition/interpretation to be from God's it must be contained within God's law, because every word from God is found in his law. Then I found the argument that only scripture is infalliable wanting because God himself is infallible and God is distinct from his Law. God is not literally his law, but he used his law to create the heavens and the earth. Therefore, while God is an infallible authority outside of his word, all of his words are contained within his Law. I am not necessaryy saying the tradition underlying the two examples I say is 100% wrong, I just don't think they foreclose the possibility of different correct inrepretations.

My goal is help people understand different traditions and generate an appeciattion for them. I am not really asking anyone to change their tradition. Like I said, I don't subscribe to a particular tradition. I started to bring these issues of polysemy up in this forum, but I started receiving personal attacks against my character. A poster said something to the effect that the latin tradition is the only tradition traceable to God whether I liked it or not. I guess they were assuming I am protestant? So part of this post is to show that in fact, there is a rich tradition traceable to the apostles found in Ethiopia that split with the latin tradition in the 400AD. Regardless, I can see why the latin tradition thinks the way it does, but as I explained before, God's law may have more than one meaning without changing a single word. So then to show another example I am showing the Book of Enoch. Certain very old christian traditions hold that Enoch is inspired; namely the Ethiooian church. There is some evidence Enoch was once considered on par with what most people would call scripture today. This example just shows scripture can have so many more meanings than either you or I can even imagine. Most people on this sub probably don't realzie there is a legitmate argument that the Book of Enoch is found in Genesis and that even the Catholic and Protestant bibles have the Book of Enoch concealed within them. My goal is to help the posters on this sub understand different viewpoints and help them appreciate different traditions. Of course, I often make provocative posts and I do hit hard in my posts, and people fire back. I don't take it personally, i will fire back but I won't give up. But when people repeated see my posts, some of course will they disagree, but they would have never agreed anyways. The people who will gain understanding will gain understanding and hopefully a fuller appreciation for differing traditions.

If you really want to know I don't subsribe to a particular demonation or faith. I am not non demoninational. If there was a verse that summed up my beliefs though it would be Genesis 48:16 (The Angel who has redeemd me from all harm -- may he bless these boys. And may they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they grow into a multitude upon the earth). There is alot of meaning in the verse so I don't want to digress. But, I think the verse demonstrates God sent his Angel and that angel forgives sins and redeems people from evil. If you want to call the angel the incarnate Christ go ahead, but I don't think people reading the text in 600BC knew Christ or Jesus the way we do. People in 600BC knew there was a redeeming angel who redeemed people from evil and trespasses without that redeemed person possessing complete moral character or perfect knowledge of God's law.

You mentioned that my topic is obscure and related to Second Temple Judaism. True. But also, to be clear, these elements are found in second temple Judaism and Jewish mysticism, but the elements are also found in Christian texts and certain Christian traditions more than others, particularly the Ethiopian tradition because they kept more Jewish parts of the elements.

codker92
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codker92 said:

CrackerJackAg said:

Ok, I understand what you are driving at.

It's a really interesting question that I feel like I only have a partial understanding of and we all know the devil is in the details and I want to be able to articulate what I'm fairly certain is my best answer but I'm not able to confidently state it in a way you would find interesting or deep.

I'll come back to you in a few days with a thoughtful reply.

Thanks for your patience and clarifying statements.

You have researched pretty obscure (to most people anyway) elements of Second Temple Jewish literature and mysticism.

In the mean time do you mind telling me how you got into this "rabbit hole" and why it interests you?

Is this part of your faith or is it more historically or secularly interesting?

I'd like to know why this topic is so important to you.

Solomon himself only had partial understanding of God's law. So, if you wait until you fully understand then you will never start. I have already shown that God will put his words in people's mouths, so you don't need to worry about having a full understanding. I am not talking about something goofy like speaking in tongues. God will put a word in your mouth for edification, whether your own or someone else. The word may or may not be new. But if you speak a word from God never spoken before, that word will go to heaven and appear before God and he will adorn that word and use it to create a new heavens and earth.

I already have answers (answers at least in my mind based upon my review of God's law) to the questions I asked you. The point of this discussion not merely to be interesting. Of course, I keep my hobby study of scripture to topics that interest me. If you think you have something different than what I asked that you think would be interesting then by all means.

This particular "rabbit hole" started when I was reviewing another post which said that official infallible tradition/interpretation is distinct from scripture. Then, I reviewed another post which said that only scripture could be infallible. I reviewed God's law and saw that everything contained within heavens and earth is found within his law. On an unrelated note, this is based on the argument (which i have not explained) that the prophets are contained with God's law as well -- but lets not digress. Therefore, I read God's word in Isaiah. That word said that God is putting words in people's mouths to establish the heavens and earths God is creating with them. If the prophets are contained within God's law and God's words are contained within the prophets then every single word God has ever placed within a person's mouth is found within his law. I compared this with the posts that said infallible tradition/interpretation is distinct from God's law and another post which said only scripture is infallible. I won't go as far to say that the posts were wrong, but I was unsure how to reconcile both posts with God being infallible and placing his words in people's mouths. If the official tradition/interpretation is truly infallible, it must be from God, but for the tradition/interpretation to be from God's it must be contained within God's law, because every word from God is found in his law. Then I found the argument that only scripture is infalliable wanting because God himself is infallible and God is distinct from his Law. God is not literally his law, but he used his law to create the heavens and the earth. Therefore, while God is an infallible authority outside of his word, all of his words are contained within his Law. I am not necessaryy saying the tradition underlying the two examples I say is 100% wrong, I just don't think they foreclose the possibility of different correct inrepretations.

My goal is help people understand different traditions and generate an appeciattion for them. I am not really asking anyone to change their tradition. Like I said, I don't subscribe to a particular tradition. I started to bring these issues of polysemy up in this forum, but I started receiving personal attacks against my character. A poster said something to the effect that the latin tradition is the only tradition traceable to God whether I liked it or not. I guess they were assuming I am protestant? So part of this post is to show that in fact, there is a rich tradition traceable to the apostles found in Ethiopia that split with the latin tradition in the 400AD. Regardless, I can see why the latin tradition thinks the way it does, but as I explained before, God's law may have more than one meaning without changing a single word. So then to show another example I am showing the Book of Enoch. Certain very old christian traditions hold that Enoch is inspired; namely the Ethiooian church. There is some evidence Enoch was once considered on par with what most people would call scripture today. This example just shows scripture can have so many more meanings than either you or I can even imagine. Most people on this sub probably don't realzie there is a legitmate argument that the Book of Enoch is found in Genesis and that even the Catholic and Protestant bibles have the Book of Enoch concealed within them. My goal is to help the posters on this sub understand different viewpoints and help them appreciate different traditions. Of course, I often make provocative posts and I do hit hard in my posts, and people fire back. I don't take it personally, i will fire back but I won't give up. But when people repeated see my posts, some of course will they disagree, but they would have never agreed anyways. The people who will gain understanding will gain understanding and hopefully a fuller appreciation for differing traditions.

If you really want to know I don't subsribe to a particular demonation or faith. I am not non demoninational. If there was a verse that summed up my beliefs though it would be Genesis 48:16 (The Angel who has redeemd me from all harm -- may he bless these boys. And may they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they grow into a multitude upon the earth). There is alot of meaning in the verse so I don't want to digress. But, I think the verse demonstrates God sent his Angel and that angel forgives sins and redeems people from evil. If you want to call the angel the incarnate Christ go ahead, but I don't think people reading the text in 600BC knew Christ or Jesus the way we do. People in 600BC knew there was a redeeming angel who redeemed people from evil and trespasses without that redeemed person possessing complete moral character or perfect knowledge of God's law.

You mentioned that my topic is obscure and related to Second Temple Judaism. True. But also, to be clear, these elements are found in second temple Judaism and Jewish mysticism, but the elements are also found in Christian texts and certain Christian traditions more than others, particularly the Ethiopian tradition because they kept more Jewish parts of the elements.



God's temple is created in silence.
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