Christian professor at tu defends the truth of the Bible

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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Too long to watch in one sitting but watchable in segments. He's not an apologist. He's a historian of Christian antiquity. He offers a historian's perspective on the reliability of what we call scripture. Bart Ehrman (sp?) is mentioned.

And bonus points: he's an Aggie and played football at A&M.

Here are the basics of his CV

https://share.google/aimode/sWye1BW7mvyxP4dQv

Dr. Larsen is originally from Texas, where he received his BA in Economics from Texas A&M where he also walked onto the football team as strong safety and a ThM from Dallas Theological Seminary. He went on to earn his MA, MPhil, and PhD in Religious Studies from Yale University in 2017. After Yale, he was elected to the Princeton Society of Fellows and has held appointments at both Yale University and Princeton University, before being directly appointed with tenure at the University of Copenhagen, where he served as Professor of New Testament and Early Christian History and Archaeology.
FIDO95
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I'm halfway through it. Listened to it on a long drive today. It has been very good.
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CrackerJackAg
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I goes I don't hear this as much in Orthodox circles as I do the Western religious circles.

Why is there such sensitivity to prove the Bible?

The Bible is real. Why even have that argument?

You don't have to go back to square one with haters and atheists that try to tell you whether or not it's accurate.

It proves itself in the end.

I suppose that in a sola scriptura environment when your faith stands on the one Pillar and lacks, Tradition, The Church etc.. it would be easy to get lost in defending the pillar instead of focusing on what matters the most.




The word of truth is free, and carries its own authority, disdaining to fall under any skilful argument... For being sent with authority, it were not fit that it should be required to produce proof of what is said; since neither is there any proof beyond itself, which is God. - J Martyr

truth asks for no special pleading, favor, or artificial protection; it asks only to be heard and examined, confident that error will crumble on its own. - Tertullian

There is no need of violence and injury, because religion cannot be forced; it is a matter of the will, not of compulsion... Truth cannot be joined with force, nor can justice with cruelty. - Lactantius

(This can also be interpreted as you cannot commit to force, coercion or argument to achieve your goal)

If the movement is of human origin, it will fail on its own; but if it is of God, nothing can overthrow it. - Gamaliel Principal
Sapper Redux
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Quote:

The Bible is real. Why even have that argument?

You don't have to go back to square one with haters and atheists that try to tell you whether or not it's accurate.

It proves itself in the end


Because it's clearly a constructed human document with errors in history and multiple authors and any scholar is going to have to acknowledge and address that.
FIDO95
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I'm not sure if you watched the video but they actually discussed the points you are making. They used the analogy of how "do you know Thomas Jefferson was real and not a construction of several different people to advance an agenda?" Larsen discusses this predicament from the lens of how it is addressed by a historian. It was a very informative part of the interview.

The talked about the postmodern idea of being hyper skeptical about everything and basically leaves you with nothing to believe in. Practically nothing is 100% certain in regard to historical events. People can't even agree on 9/11 and that occurred in our lifetime. At some point you have to have faith that the information you are given is more likely to be true.

Something that I learned that is apparently coming down the pipeline... Apparently serous scholars, even the atheist ones, have accepted the existence and crucifixion of Jesus. There are too many independent (outside the Bible) accounts to deny it. So now, they have moved their attention on Paul and stating he never existed and his letters are all forgeries. The nonsense never seems to end. Perhaps you are right, it's time to stop arguing with people who can not see.

"4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that [b]they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." -2 Cor 4:4
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Silent For Too Long
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There's even hyper minimalists that say Jesus never existed (Richarrd Carrier) or the Septuagint came before The Torah and biblical Hebrew was invented by the greeks (Ammon Hillman).

I'm not kidding, those theories are out there.

It's important to combat these wildly stupid theories.
Silent For Too Long
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The Bible is the memetic bedrock of everything in every Christian persuasion. Your Traditions are based on the Bible.

If the Bible lacks any authority at all Christianity crumbles.

To your point though I should say hyper Biblical literalism has its own pitfalls. I think its wise to understand the Bible wasn't suppose to be a scientific thesis. But it is suppose to be taken seriously.
Silent For Too Long
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Sapper Redux said:

Quote:

The Bible is real. Why even have that argument?

You don't have to go back to square one with haters and atheists that try to tell you whether or not it's accurate.

It proves itself in the end


Because it's clearly a constructed human document with errors in history and multiple authors and any scholar is going to have to acknowledge and address that.


Outside of the incredibly niave I think most people understand it had multiple authors. It took over a thousand years to write all its books.

I think the Bible has stood up to historical scrutiny better then any comparative work from antiquity. From the Iron Age to the Romans the Bible tracks pretty darn well. Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove a remarkable consistency in the texts. Minor scribal errors have certainly occurred over 2,300 years, but the vast majority of the actual data behind those letters has changed very, very little.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Silent For Too Long said:

The Bible is the memetic bedrock of everything in every Christian persuasion. Your Traditions are based on the Bible.

If the Bible lacks any authority at all Christianity crumbles.

To your point though I should say hyper Biblical literalism has its own pitfalls. I think its wise to understand the Bible wasn't suppose to be a scientific thesis. But it is suppose to be taken seriously.


"Your Traditions are based on the Bible" is not sequentially correct. Tradition preexists the canon of the Bible and in fact was a key litmus test for determining what writings were properly included in the canon.

It's probably true that once the canon was established that the church would look to the content of scripture to help determine whether something was orthodox, but it was NEVER the sole standard by which orthodoxy was determined, at least not until the early 16th century.
Silent For Too Long
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Thats just not true. The earliest extra biblical sources, like first Clement, directly reference documents that would later be cannonized.

They weren't just navel gazing and making things up. They were continuing and building on the traditions started by Paul and the gospel writers, as well as the Old Testament scriptures.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Silent For Too Long said:

Thats just not true. The earliest extra biblical sources, like first Clement, directly reference documents that would later be cannonized.

They weren't just navel gazing and making things up. They were continuing and building on the traditions started by Paul and the gospel writers, as well as the Old Testament scriptures.


… later be canonized. They're not canonical until they are canonical. Just because a document references a document that would later be declared canonical doesn't mean those documents were the sole standard. Their canonicity was arrived at by comparing their content with the oral traditions and other received praxis that were taught by the apostles to their successors, who then assessed the veracity of those writings by comparison to what they were taught and had come to know as true. Were the writings that were later canonized referred to and looked to as a source of orthodoxy? Yes. 100%. But given how rare they were and the limited number of literate people at that time, oral teaching still prevailed for some time, especially in the first century or two.

Moreover, we know with certainty that the early church predates all of the writings, some more than others. We also know that some of the writings that were being used were later rejected or omitted. So just being a writing used by the a church or community of Christians wasn't enough. It still had to be assessed by some body with the authority to determine if it was orthodox and should be considered canonical.

The process of canonization happened organically, naturally developing from the first century on. Even so, those criteria can be identified by observing that process of development.

The process of canonization involved both passive reception and active creation by the Church, reflecting a complex interrelationship. This is the fingerprint of the Holy Spirit working through Jesus's established ecclesia and into human history.

The four primary criteria the Church used for determining whether certain books were accepted into the canon while others were rejected were:

1. Apostolic Origin - attributed to and/or based on the preaching and teaching of the first-generation apostles or their closest companions.
2. Universal Acceptance - acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the Mediterranean world by the end of the fourth century.
3. Liturgical Use - read publicly along with the Old Testament when early Christians gathered for Eucharistic liturgy.
4. Consistent Message - containing theological ideas compatible with other accepted Christian beliefs, traditions and writings, including the divinity and humanity of Jesus.

Apostolic authorship or association meant the text needed a direct connection to Jesus' original apostles or their close companions. Paul's letters qualified because of his apostleship; the Gospel of Mark was accepted because Mark was associated with Peter.

Orthodoxy required consistency with accepted Christian teaching, oral and written. Texts that contradicted core doctrines were excluded. The Church had to look to the oral and written teachings that were handed down by apostles to make this determination. The Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Judas, for instance, contained teachings that diverged significantly from mainstream Christian belief. Orthodoxy served as a crucial reason for a text's canonicity, but not a sufficient one. It was often used to exclude texts such as Gnostic writings.

Catholicity (Universality) refers to if there was a significant "split decision" on a work, then it failed to fulfill the test of catholicity. Those three tests apostolicity, orthodoxy, and catholicity guided the early church in its recognition of the canonical books.

Lastly, there was a natural shift of authority from the apostles to their writings after their deaths, and with this, the apostles' writings were collected, copied, and dispersed among the early Church. Books that were read at the Eucharistic assembly carried a weight of authority that others did not.

So I apologize if I am talking past your point. I agree that the authority of the New Testament as the Word preceded and produced its authority as a New Scripture; i.e., the New Testament writings carried authority before they were ever formally recognized as "Scripture." But I think this supports the argument that tradition preceded or at a minimum was concomitant with the writings that would later be canonized. Although no known Christian writings were produced until the decades following Jesus's death, the earliest Christians preserved the teachings and acts of Jesus in memory and passed them on orally. These teachings were understood to have the highest authority in Christian communities and constituted the basis for Christian discipleship.

In other words, the Church was already alive, worshipping, baptizing, celebrating the Eucharist, and spreading the Gospel before a single letter of Paul or a single Gospel was written. The living Word of God Jesus Himself was being proclaimed orally by the Apostles.

Then, as the Apostles began to age and face martyrdom, that living proclamation began to be committed to writing. What they first proclaimed orally in synagogues, marketplaces, and homes soon also existed in written form of apostolic letters and Gospels that carried the same authority as their spoken preaching.

So the authority of these texts came from their apostolic origin and their faithful transmission of the Word of God not from any council declaring them Scripture. The Church's later recognition simply made explicit what was already operative in Christian life.
Silent For Too Long
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I don't disagree with much lf what you are saying, but Paul's letters enter the equation pretty early, maybe just a decade or two after Christ's death. Also, Paul was already having to combat what he perceived as heresy by the time of his writings.

One of the problems with oral traditions is they are easily prone to corruption, as Paul's letters easily identify. One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Silent For Too Long said:

I don't disagree with much lf what you are saying, but Paul's letters enter the equation pretty early, maybe just a decade or two after Christ's death. Also, Paul was already having to combat what he perceived as heresy by the time of his writings.

One of the problems with oral traditions is they are easily prone to corruption, as Paul's letters easily identify. One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.


No significant disagreement with that, other than to say that history also shows that a writing still has to be preserved and interpreted. We are still doing this up to our eyeballs to this very day.

Moreover, it is true that the earliest extant writing we have that made it into the canon is probably Paul's earliest writing, 1 Thessalonians, which is generally regarded as being written ca ~50 AD. Some debate about Galatians. But both predate all 4 Gospels.

But Paul wasn't an original apostle. He didn't walk around the holy land with the Son of God. How did Paul know all the stuff he came to know about Jesus? Clearly he was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it's also very likely that he learned from the original apostles much of what he taught. And he would have learned that orally from them and passed on much of it orally.

Paul's writings are mostly about correcting errors. There's no need to write a letter to a community affirming orthodoxy. So I don't think it's surprising that we don't see him sending affirming letters to communities where he or another apostle or person with apostolic authority taught orally and who don't need correction because they are getting it right, or at least they are not in the ditch. Isn't it logical that he is sending correcting missives to communities where they have been taught orally but are now off the path or in need of pedantic intervention?
Silent For Too Long
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Just finished watching the whole episode. Really excellent conversation. Thank you for sharing it.
DirtDiver
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Quote:

Why is there such sensitivity to prove the Bible?

The Bible is real. Why even have that argument?


1. The difference between blind faith and strong faith that has been tested through experimentation and evidence.
2. The reliability of God's character and words (Scripture) have been under attack since Eden.
3. One factor in children maintaining their faith into adulthood is them being able to demonstrate the word of God is true.
4. Jesus is not opposed to evidence... Acts 1:3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
5. Jesus encouraged fact checking...
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
6. Paul encouraged fact checking..
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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You bet. Thanks for your thoughtful posts.

Peace.
Faithful Ag
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Silent For Too Long said:

One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.

I appreciate your post and perspective, but I would challenge this statement fundamentally. Throughout history, Judaism has always held Oral Tradition as being authoritative and binding on the believer alongside Scripture - not subservient to it. It has always been both/and, and was never an either/or proposition. Oral Tradition was authoritative and binding on OT and NT Jews, and this was even attested to by Jesus himself in the NT. The Jews passed down their Traditions from generation to generation with great zeal, effort and care.

Scripture was not and never has been "infinitely superior" to Oral Tradition. This belief is a Protestant invention, is foreign to both Jews and to ancient Christians, is unbiblical, un-historical, and it is wrong.
KingofHazor
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Faithful Ag said:

Silent For Too Long said:

One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.

I appreciate your post and perspective, but I would challenge this statement fundamentally. Throughout history, Judaism has always held Oral Tradition as being authoritative and binding on the believer alongside Scripture - not subservient to it. It has always been both/and, and was never an either/or proposition. Oral Tradition was authoritative and binding on OT and NT Jews, and this was even attested to by Jesus himself in the NT. The Jews passed down their Traditions from generation to generation with great zeal, effort and care.

Scripture was not and never has been "infinitely superior" to Oral Tradition. This belief is a Protestant invention, is foreign to both Jews and to ancient Christians, is unbiblical, un-historical, and it is wrong.

Any support you can provide for that? That's the first time I've heard that.

To be clear, you're contending that all ancient Jews viewed oral tradition as having the same authority as the Torah? That the view of them as being "people of the book" was only a Protestant invention?

I'm going to need a lot of evidence to buy that.
KingofHazor
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Faithful Ag said:

Silent For Too Long said:

One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.

I appreciate your post and perspective, but I would challenge this statement fundamentally. Throughout history, Judaism has always held Oral Tradition as being authoritative and binding on the believer alongside Scripture - not subservient to it. It has always been both/and, and was never an either/or proposition. Oral Tradition was authoritative and binding on OT and NT Jews, and this was even attested to by Jesus himself in the NT. The Jews passed down their Traditions from generation to generation with great zeal, effort and care.

Scripture was not and never has been "infinitely superior" to Oral Tradition. This belief is a Protestant invention, is foreign to both Jews and to ancient Christians, is unbiblical, un-historical, and it is wrong.

And aren't you overlooking the several instances where Jesus and Paul challenged the oral Jewish traditions by appealing to - - - wait for it - - - the written Word?
codker92
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KingofHazor said:

Faithful Ag said:

Silent For Too Long said:

One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.

I appreciate your post and perspective, but I would challenge this statement fundamentally. Throughout history, Judaism has always held Oral Tradition as being authoritative and binding on the believer alongside Scripture - not subservient to it. It has always been both/and, and was never an either/or proposition. Oral Tradition was authoritative and binding on OT and NT Jews, and this was even attested to by Jesus himself in the NT. The Jews passed down their Traditions from generation to generation with great zeal, effort and care.

Scripture was not and never has been "infinitely superior" to Oral Tradition. This belief is a Protestant invention, is foreign to both Jews and to ancient Christians, is unbiblical, un-historical, and it is wrong.

Any support you can provide for that? That's the first time I've heard that.

To be clear, you're contending that all ancient Jews viewed oral tradition as having the same authority as the Torah? That the view of them as being "people of the book" was only a Protestant invention?

I'm going to need a lot of evidence to buy that.


Look you are forgetting Christs teaching. When Jesus entered the temple he took rode a colt to the temple to destroy it and wage war against it. Jesus fully intended to destroy the temple that day. But, the children shouted . Matthew 21:12-17 and Jesus decided to spare the temple for the sake of the children. This shows that the children's spoken word caused Jesus's anger to subside. He decides to keep the temple for the children's sake so they could speak the words of God orally. This shows Jesus did find oral tradition authoritative enough to save the temple.
Farmer1906
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codker92 said:

KingofHazor said:

Faithful Ag said:

Silent For Too Long said:

One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.

I appreciate your post and perspective, but I would challenge this statement fundamentally. Throughout history, Judaism has always held Oral Tradition as being authoritative and binding on the believer alongside Scripture - not subservient to it. It has always been both/and, and was never an either/or proposition. Oral Tradition was authoritative and binding on OT and NT Jews, and this was even attested to by Jesus himself in the NT. The Jews passed down their Traditions from generation to generation with great zeal, effort and care.

Scripture was not and never has been "infinitely superior" to Oral Tradition. This belief is a Protestant invention, is foreign to both Jews and to ancient Christians, is unbiblical, un-historical, and it is wrong.

Any support you can provide for that? That's the first time I've heard that.

To be clear, you're contending that all ancient Jews viewed oral tradition as having the same authority as the Torah? That the view of them as being "people of the book" was only a Protestant invention?

I'm going to need a lot of evidence to buy that.


Look you are forgetting Christs teaching. When Jesus entered the temple he took rode a colt to the temple to destroy it and wage war against it. Jesus fully intended to destroy the temple that day. But, the children shouted . Matthew 21:12-17 and Jesus decided to spare the temple for the sake of the children. This shows that the children's spoken word caused Jesus's anger to subside. He decides to keep the temple for the children's sake so they could speak the words of God orally. This shows Jesus did find oral tradition authoritative enough to save the temple.

Where does it say he was intending to destroy the actual temple?
codker92
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Farmer1906 said:

codker92 said:

KingofHazor said:

Faithful Ag said:

Silent For Too Long said:

One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.

I appreciate your post and perspective, but I would challenge this statement fundamentally. Throughout history, Judaism has always held Oral Tradition as being authoritative and binding on the believer alongside Scripture - not subservient to it. It has always been both/and, and was never an either/or proposition. Oral Tradition was authoritative and binding on OT and NT Jews, and this was even attested to by Jesus himself in the NT. The Jews passed down their Traditions from generation to generation with great zeal, effort and care.

Scripture was not and never has been "infinitely superior" to Oral Tradition. This belief is a Protestant invention, is foreign to both Jews and to ancient Christians, is unbiblical, un-historical, and it is wrong.

Any support you can provide for that? That's the first time I've heard that.

To be clear, you're contending that all ancient Jews viewed oral tradition as having the same authority as the Torah? That the view of them as being "people of the book" was only a Protestant invention?

I'm going to need a lot of evidence to buy that.


Look you are forgetting Christs teaching. When Jesus entered the temple he took rode a colt to the temple to destroy it and wage war against it. Jesus fully intended to destroy the temple that day. But, the children shouted . Matthew 21:12-17 and Jesus decided to spare the temple for the sake of the children. This shows that the children's spoken word caused Jesus's anger to subside. He decides to keep the temple for the children's sake so they could speak the words of God orally. This shows Jesus did find oral tradition authoritative enough to save the temple.

Where does it say he was intending to destroy the actual temple?

It does say he rode a colt, a young male horse. A colt is a warhorse. Jesus rode horse of war into the town towards the temple. Once he arrived inside he threw over the tables started cleaning out the inside. The tables had engraved images on the money, which images were forbidden and considered unclean. The temple was not clean because of the images on the money inside it. The temple was vehicle for facilitating the violation of God's law. Therefore, Jesus sought to destroy it until he heard the voices of the children proclaiming God's law, and that subsided his anger.
KingofHazor
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A colt is not a warhorse.

The passage does not say that the voices of the children subsided his anger. The children were singing praises to Christ (" Hosanna to the Son of David"), which Christ then tied to an OT written prophecy.

Do the rest of the RCC and EO folks on here agree with Codker that this passage is a proof text for the authority of oral tradition?
Farmer1906
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AG
codker92 said:

Farmer1906 said:

codker92 said:

KingofHazor said:

Faithful Ag said:

Silent For Too Long said:

One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.

I appreciate your post and perspective, but I would challenge this statement fundamentally. Throughout history, Judaism has always held Oral Tradition as being authoritative and binding on the believer alongside Scripture - not subservient to it. It has always been both/and, and was never an either/or proposition. Oral Tradition was authoritative and binding on OT and NT Jews, and this was even attested to by Jesus himself in the NT. The Jews passed down their Traditions from generation to generation with great zeal, effort and care.

Scripture was not and never has been "infinitely superior" to Oral Tradition. This belief is a Protestant invention, is foreign to both Jews and to ancient Christians, is unbiblical, un-historical, and it is wrong.

Any support you can provide for that? That's the first time I've heard that.

To be clear, you're contending that all ancient Jews viewed oral tradition as having the same authority as the Torah? That the view of them as being "people of the book" was only a Protestant invention?

I'm going to need a lot of evidence to buy that.


Look you are forgetting Christs teaching. When Jesus entered the temple he took rode a colt to the temple to destroy it and wage war against it. Jesus fully intended to destroy the temple that day. But, the children shouted . Matthew 21:12-17 and Jesus decided to spare the temple for the sake of the children. This shows that the children's spoken word caused Jesus's anger to subside. He decides to keep the temple for the children's sake so they could speak the words of God orally. This shows Jesus did find oral tradition authoritative enough to save the temple.

Where does it say he was intending to destroy the actual temple?

It does say he rode a colt, a young male horse. A colt is a warhorse. Jesus rode horse of war into the town towards the temple. Once he arrived inside he threw over the tables started cleaning out the inside. The tables had engraved images on the money, which images were forbidden and considered unclean. The temple was not clean because of the images on the money inside it. The temple was vehicle for facilitating the violation of God's law. Therefore, Jesus sought to destroy it until he heard the voices of the children proclaiming God's law, and that subsided his anger.

In this case the colt is referring to a young donkey which is not a warhorse. It calls back to when David rode a donkey to his coronation.
The Banned
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KingofHazor said:

A colt is not a warhorse.

The passage does not say that the voices of the children subsided his anger. The children were singing praises to Christ (" Hosanna to the Son of David"), which Christ then tied to an OT written prophecy.

Do the rest of the RCC and EO folks on here agree with Codker that this passage is a proof text for the authority of oral tradition?

codker is neither of these.

Whatever tradition he is apart of apparently teaches things like this:

Quote:

Why does God strengthen the children? Because their words and their study creates the very substance that saves the universe.

Faithful Ag
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I do not believe Codker is either Catholic or Orthodox, but I could be wrong on that point. But no, the Church does not teach whatever it is he was trying to say.

The point or claim that I am making is that throughout the OT and NT, Oral Tradition is authoritative and binding on the believer. The Jewish Oral Traditions were passed down alongside Scripture and BOTH were authoritative, with the High Priest being the ultimate authority as to their interpretation and application to the lives of the faithful.

In Mathew 23 Jesus commands the people…
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice…"

Yes, the Jews held Scripture in high regard despite the fact that they did not all agree on what is Scripture. In the same manner, they held Oral Tradition in high regard. In both cases they submitted to the rightful authority of who sat on Moses' Seat. We have the same structure still today in the visible apostolic church, East and West.
codker92
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KingofHazor said:

A colt is not a warhorse.

The passage does not say that the voices of the children subsided his anger. The children were singing praises to Christ (" Hosanna to the Son of David"), which Christ then tied to an OT written prophecy.

Do the rest of the RCC and EO folks on here agree with Codker that this passage is a proof text for the authority of oral tradition?

The literal definition of a colt is a young male uncastrated horse less than four years old... They were used for war. The female horses were kept away from war and bred with the strongest male.
codker92
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AG
Farmer1906 said:

codker92 said:

Farmer1906 said:

codker92 said:

KingofHazor said:

Faithful Ag said:

Silent For Too Long said:

One of the most important aspects of biblical tradition going all the way back to the beginning of Israel is the written word, which is infinitely superior to oral tradition in its ability to preserve and transmit wisdom over time.

I appreciate your post and perspective, but I would challenge this statement fundamentally. Throughout history, Judaism has always held Oral Tradition as being authoritative and binding on the believer alongside Scripture - not subservient to it. It has always been both/and, and was never an either/or proposition. Oral Tradition was authoritative and binding on OT and NT Jews, and this was even attested to by Jesus himself in the NT. The Jews passed down their Traditions from generation to generation with great zeal, effort and care.

Scripture was not and never has been "infinitely superior" to Oral Tradition. This belief is a Protestant invention, is foreign to both Jews and to ancient Christians, is unbiblical, un-historical, and it is wrong.

Any support you can provide for that? That's the first time I've heard that.

To be clear, you're contending that all ancient Jews viewed oral tradition as having the same authority as the Torah? That the view of them as being "people of the book" was only a Protestant invention?

I'm going to need a lot of evidence to buy that.


Look you are forgetting Christs teaching. When Jesus entered the temple he took rode a colt to the temple to destroy it and wage war against it. Jesus fully intended to destroy the temple that day. But, the children shouted . Matthew 21:12-17 and Jesus decided to spare the temple for the sake of the children. This shows that the children's spoken word caused Jesus's anger to subside. He decides to keep the temple for the children's sake so they could speak the words of God orally. This shows Jesus did find oral tradition authoritative enough to save the temple.

Where does it say he was intending to destroy the actual temple?

It does say he rode a colt, a young male horse. A colt is a warhorse. Jesus rode horse of war into the town towards the temple. Once he arrived inside he threw over the tables started cleaning out the inside. The tables had engraved images on the money, which images were forbidden and considered unclean. The temple was not clean because of the images on the money inside it. The temple was vehicle for facilitating the violation of God's law. Therefore, Jesus sought to destroy it until he heard the voices of the children proclaiming God's law, and that subsided his anger.

In this case the colt is referring to a young donkey which is not a warhorse. It calls back to when David rode a donkey to his coronation.

no no no you are missing the translation errror Matthew 21:2 says " you will find a donkey tied there and a colt beside her". The colt is not the donkey's, it is merely stabled together. The english is mistranslated in most bibles. The colt must be a horse. In fact because Jesus was riding the warhorse is precisely why the children called him king. The greek word for colt there is not applied to donkeys. It just means a young horse. [EDIT] to add to this Jesus destroyed the tables and booths inside the temple. If he was riding a donkey, i.e. to make peace, he would not have done that. David did not tear up the inside of the temple.
KingofHazor
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Faithful Ag said:

I do not believe Codker is either Catholic or Orthodox, but I could be wrong on that point. But no, the Church does not teach whatever it is he was trying to say.

The point or claim that I am making is that throughout the OT and NT, Oral Tradition is authoritative and binding on the believer. The Jewish Oral Traditions were passed down alongside Scripture and BOTH were authoritative, with the High Priest being the ultimate authority as to their interpretation and application to the lives of the faithful.

In Mathew 23 Jesus commands the people…
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice…"

Yes, the Jews held Scripture in high regard despite the fact that they did not all agree on what is Scripture. In the same manner, they held Oral Tradition in high regard. In both cases they submitted to the rightful authority of who sat on Moses' Seat. We have the same structure still today in the visible apostolic church, East and West.

I thought that there was a wide disagreement between various Jewish sects as to the authority of the oral tradition? Weren't the Pharisees advocates of the oral tradition whereas the Sadducees, Essenes, and others rejected their authority? (Sound familiar? ).

And didn't Christ use the written scripture to contradict the oral traditions, to point out to the Pharisees that their traditions were wrong? In Mark 7 & Matthew 15 didn't he rely upon Isaiah to correct their tradition on Corban, in Matthew 12 and Mark 2 he used 1 Samuel 21 to correct their oral tradition on the Sabbath, and relied on another written proof to show that the Temple priests themselves "worked" on the Sabbath?

In the debate over divorce, didn't Christ rely upon the earliest written text, Genesis, to show that God's original written design for marriage overrode their written traditions?

And didn't Paul, in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 challenge the Jewish oral traditions on righteousness by pointing out that it wasn't according to works, as their traditions stated, but rather according to belief in God?

And wasn't the Sermon on the Mount largely a point-by-point refutation of their oral traditions?
codker92
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AG
KingofHazor said:

Faithful Ag said:

I do not believe Codker is either Catholic or Orthodox, but I could be wrong on that point. But no, the Church does not teach whatever it is he was trying to say.

The point or claim that I am making is that throughout the OT and NT, Oral Tradition is authoritative and binding on the believer. The Jewish Oral Traditions were passed down alongside Scripture and BOTH were authoritative, with the High Priest being the ultimate authority as to their interpretation and application to the lives of the faithful.

In Mathew 23 Jesus commands the people…
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice…"

Yes, the Jews held Scripture in high regard despite the fact that they did not all agree on what is Scripture. In the same manner, they held Oral Tradition in high regard. In both cases they submitted to the rightful authority of who sat on Moses' Seat. We have the same structure still today in the visible apostolic church, East and West.

I thought that there was a wide disagreement between various Jewish sects as to the authority of the oral tradition? Weren't the Pharisees advocates of the oral tradition whereas the Sadducees, Essenes, and others rejected their authority? (Sound familiar? ).

And didn't Christ use the written scripture to contradict the oral traditions, to point out to the Pharisees that their traditions were wrong? In Mark 7 & Matthew 15 didn't he rely upon Isaiah to correct their tradition on Corban, in Matthew 12 and Mark 2 he used 1 Samuel 21 to correct their oral tradition on the Sabbath, and relied on another written proof to show that the Temple priests themselves "worked" on the Sabbath?

In the debate over divorce, didn't Christ rely upon the earliest written text, Genesis, to show that God's original written design for marriage overrode their written traditions?

And didn't Paul, in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 challenge the Jewish oral traditions on righteousness by pointing out that it wasn't according to works, as their traditions stated, but rather according to belief in God?

And wasn't the Sermon on the Mount largely a point-by-point refutation of their oral traditions?

I think I know how to answer your question. But, I need to know something. Do you agree God's words are authoritative?
Faithful Ag
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I will respond in more detail when I am able and have a little time…But your assumptions and interpretations are heavily influenced by your modern, Protestant interpretive traditions. I would say your premise and conclusions are flawed.
Silent For Too Long
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When you traditionalists make your points, I often think to myself "people are perfectly capable of interpreting scripture on their own.." and then codker posts and I'm like "dang, they have a point."
codker92
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AG
Silent For Too Long said:

When you traditionalists make your points, I often think to myself "people are perfectly capable of interpreting scripture on their own.." and then codker posts and I'm like "dang, they have a point."

You still haven't shown anything I said was wrong. I guess you ran out of ideas so you just do personal attacks now?
Silent For Too Long
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It was joke, bud. Lighten up, Francis.

Your entire Jesus was riding a war horse bit is a pretty unique perspective. Surely you are aware of this?
codker92
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AG
Silent For Too Long said:

It was joke, bud. Lighten up, Francis.

Your entire Jesus was riding a war horse bit is a pretty unique perspective. Surely you are aware of this?

There is more than one way to read the text. Just because the text conceals a deeper meaning does not mean the deeper meaning is not favored or "unique". When a new interpretation of God's law is rightly spoken, it continues the creation of the new heavens and earth.
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