Is the United State A Christian Nation?

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11:35a, 8/21/26
AG
And if so...

What is the evidence to support this belief?

What does being a Christian Nation actually mean?

Lastly, why does it matter?



I bleed Maroon and I wipe burnt orange!
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Serotonin
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In reply to TPS_Report • 12:54p, 8/21/26
AG
TPS_Report said:

What does being a Christian Nation actually mean?

Bro you're asking the question, you gotta define this first. Otherwise you'll get 20 different answers based on 20 different sets of criteria based on how they are trying to interpret what you mean by the question.
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Zobel
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12:57p, 8/21/26
AG
Yes

The testimony of our founders and people, and the history of our nation

It means being a people who have Christianity as our common religious and moral framework

It matters because our system of government is made for that religious and moral frame work and is wholly inadequate to govern any other kind of people

Great quote to this effect from 1816 by John Jay, first USSC chief justice, wrote five federalist papers along with Madison and Hamilton (so I think understands the constitution and intent fairly well)

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest
of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

He also said in the same letter "the gospel not only recognizes the whole moral law, and extends and perfects our knowledge of it, but also enjoins on all mankind the observance of it."

In another letter he said "A proper history of the United States would have much to recommend it: in some respects it would be singular, or unlike all others; it would develop the great plan of Providence, for causing this extensive part of our world to be discovered, and these "uttermost parts of the earth" to be gradually filled with civilized and Christian people and nations. The means or second causes by which this great plan has long been and still is accomplishing, are materials for history, of which the writer ought well to know the use and bearings and proper places. In my opinion, the historian, in the course of the work, is never to lose sight of that great plan."

Or in another place "So far as respects Great Britain and the United States, that obstacle [to the Gospel by treating African heathens as property] has been removed; and other Christian nations have partially followed their example."

As to the question of whether Christians should vote for "infidel" rulers, he cited "Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chron. 19:2.

He is just one example out of many, but a good one.
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Zobel
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1:13p, 8/21/26
AG
Also, with a better definition of nation, no. Because the people groups that made up the colonies which would come to ratify the Constitution where of sufficiently different character, beliefs, and way of life, that each was its own nation. So more like, we were a union of Christian nations.
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Rocag
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1:37p, 8/21/26
AG
It really does depend on what exactly you mean when you say Christian nation. If it merely means that Christianity is the most popular religion then sure, that's true, but I doubt that's what you mean. If you mean that the founders of the nation were Christians that claim is only partly true. Several very important figures including Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson weren't Christian.

For every early American quote supporting the idea of Christian America there's ones you can point to arguing against it. The 1796 Treaty of Tripoli directly states "... the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion". Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists showed his support of a wall of separation between church and state. The Constitution itself is secular, forbidding religious tests for office and forbidding Congress from making any law respecting an establishment of religion.

That's not to say Christianity wasn't a huge part of this country's history and founding. It certainly was. It's equally clear that our laws were designed to prevent any one religion or sect from using the power of government to persecute others or strip them of political power.
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Zobel
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In reply to Rocag • 1:38p, 8/21/26
AG
You have to get to the distinction between the state or government and the nation itself. Your examples conflate the two things, and they are not the same thing at all.
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The Banned
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In reply to Zobel • 1:57p, 8/21/26
Zobel said:
Also, with a better definition of nation, no. Because the people groups that made up the colonies which would come to ratify the Constitution where of sufficiently different character, beliefs, and way of life, that each was its own nation. So more like, we were a union of Christian nations.

This. We were formed as separate states that unionized for the greater good of the individual states. These states created a method to govern on very limited issues in shared manner in order to prevent some states from forcing their views upon the others. That union decided it was important to protect religious liberty FROM the union.

As Zobel stated in his longer post, it was most certainly created with Christian values by Christian believers, albeit with different "flavors" of Christianity if you will. The reason for not establishing a state religion was because of the reality of religious persecutions/wars in the lands they left, along with the diverse denominational views that needed to be tolerated for these individual nations to unionize. It was not because they lacked faith in God.
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Rocag
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In reply to Zobel • 1:59p, 8/21/26
AG
Well there are lots of people who claim the US is a Christian nation who also mean that the government itself is or should be Christian. I don't think we can just ignore that part. Again it goes back to defining the term.
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The Banned
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In reply to Rocag • 2:03p, 8/21/26
Rocag said:
Well there are lots of people who claim the US is a Christian nation who also mean that the government itself is or should be Christian. I don't think we can just ignore that part. Again it goes back to defining the term.

It also needs to be noted that the nation that was founded (a union of sovereign states) ceased to exist after the Civil War. That war ended any notion that we as states have powers to establish a union, and instead created a nation that owns the individual states
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In reply to Zobel • 2:16p, 8/21/26
AG
Zobel said:
Yes

The testimony of our founders and people, and the history of our nation


All founders?


Quote:
Yes

It means being a people who have Christianity as our common religious and moral framework


What about those who don't share that framework?


Quote:
Yes

It matters because our system of government is made for that religious and moral frame work and is wholly inadequate to govern any other kind of people


Are you saying representative democracy fails unless the people being governed are predominantly Christian?



I bleed Maroon and I wipe burnt orange!
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Zobel
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In reply to TPS_Report • 2:24p, 8/21/26
AG
im not playing socratic games. if you have a point to make feel free to make it.
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Serotonin
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In reply to Zobel • 3:01p, 8/21/26
AG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
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Rocag
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In reply to The Banned • 3:03p, 8/21/26
AG
I would say that part got abandoned when we replaced the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution.
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In reply to Zobel • 3:08p, 8/21/26
AG
Zobel said:
im not playing socratic games. if you have a point to make feel free to make it.



I'll try...


Quote:
Zobel said:
Yes

The testimony of our founders and people, and the history of our nation



All founders?

My point is that not all founders agree on this point. To claim the founders' testimony as evidence means you are dismissing some testimony in favor of others.


Quote:
Quote:
Yes

It means being a people who have Christianity as our common religious and moral framework



What about those who don't share that framework?

My question stems from the fact that religious affiliation has declined significantly in the past few decades. If there should come a time when nonbelievers outnumber believers in the USA, would it still be a Christian nation? Will it always be one regardless of its population's take on religion?


Quote:
Quote:
Yes

It matters because our system of government is made for that religious and moral frame work and is wholly inadequate to govern any other kind of people



Are you saying representative democracy fails unless the people being governed are predominantly Christian?

This answer seems rather bigoted so I'm trying to find out if I misunderstood your answer or if you really believe only a Christian population can handle representative democracy.



Personally, I don't understand why people WANT the U.S. to be a "Christian nation". I'm against it because that's the first step on the road to theocracy. I would be just as firmly against this being a "Muslim, Buddhist, Shinto, etc." nation. The best way to preserve individual religious freedom seems to be keeping the government as far away from religion as possible. I don't want the tenets of Muslim Law posted in our schools. But I also understand why a Muslim American wouldn't want Rabbinic Law posted in our public schools.




I bleed Maroon and I wipe burnt orange!
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Serotonin
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In reply to TPS_Report • 3:43p, 8/21/26
AG
You seem to be defining a "Christian nation" as either a theocracy or something that necessarily leads to theocracy. But that is not how Zobel defined it. He described Christianity as part of the social, moral, and political DNA of the country.

You are moving from (a) American society and its institutions developed within an inherited Christian moral framework to (b) the government should impose Christian theocracy...but those are two very different things.

That's why the term has to be defined before it can be answered.

If by "Christian nation" you mean a Christian theocracy then the answer is no. If you mean a nation whose culture, moral assumptions, and political institutions were substantially shaped by Christianity then answer is an obvious yes.
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Zobel
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In reply to TPS_Report • 3:49p, 8/21/26
AG
Ok. I don't talk to people who open with the premise that my belief structures are prima facie bigoted. You're essentially openly admitting that none of this interaction was ever in good faith. No thanks.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Serotonin • 4:05p, 8/21/26
AG
Serotonin said:
You seem to be defining a "Christian nation" as either a theocracy or something that necessarily leads to theocracy. But that is not how Zobel defined it. He described Christianity as part of the social, moral, and political DNA of the country.

You are moving from (a) American society and its institutions developed within an inherited Christian moral framework to (b) the government should impose Christian theocracy...but those are two very different things.

That's why the term has to be defined before it can be answered.

If by "Christian nation" you mean a Christian theocracy then the answer is no. If you mean a nation whose culture, moral assumptions, and political institutions were substantially shaped by Christianity then answer is an obvious yes.

Agree. We are a Christian nation. No matter how bad some people hate that.
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Zobel
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In reply to TPS_Report • 4:15p, 8/21/26
AG
Also to be clear I completely stand by the premise that governmental structures are absolutely dependent on various types and amounts of virtue existing in their peolle for success. If you change the moral and religious structure, you change the virtues in the population. That will always change the optimal relationship between government structure and people.

A republic won't work without its citizens being virtuous. Public virtue is contingent on private virtue. Private virtue comes from piety. Hence our government being suitable only for a moral and religious people.

The above comes from a mishmash of sources and allusions including Cicero, Aristotle, Plato, Adams, and Washington.
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In reply to Zobel • 4:17p, 8/21/26
AG
Zobel said:
Ok. I don't talk to people who open with the premise that my belief structures are prima facie bigoted. You're essentially openly admitting that none of this interaction was ever in good faith. No thanks.


Quote:
Are you saying representative democracy fails unless the people being governed are predominantly Christian?

This answer seems rather bigoted so I'm trying to find out if I misunderstood your answer or if you really believe only a Christian population can handle representative democracy.


First, this is specific to this one answer, not the entirety of your beliefs.

Second, I specifically noted that I could be incorrect in my assessment of your answer.

How is this a show of bad faith? If you truly feel only a majority Christian population can handle representative democracy, then it is a bigoted stance. If you don't, then my assessment was in error and I'll need help understanding what you mean.




I bleed Maroon and I wipe burnt orange!
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Zobel
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In reply to TPS_Report • 4:20p, 8/21/26
AG
Because nowhere above did I say anything about a representative democracy being contingent on Christianity. You made it up to suggest I'm a bigot. That is a wonderful example of bad faith.
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Zobel
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In reply to Rocag • 4:26p, 8/21/26
AG
you can't get out of one error by appealing to a strawman you're introducing.

first, clear the distinction between the government and then nation. they aren't the same thing.

then deal with the actual argument as presented.

for example, it can be both true that a) the government is religiously neutral and b) the government should be Christian in that it should be representative of the nation that it governs. and we can add to it that c) Christians have a duty, privilege, and interest in making it so; and it its both foolish and an abdication of our duty to not do that.
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In reply to Zobel • 4:27p, 8/21/26
AG
Zobel said:
Because nowhere above did I say anything about a representative democracy being contingent on Christianity. You made it up to suggest I'm a bigot. That is a wonderful example of bad faith.

Or... I misunderstood your answer. To me this

Quote:
It matters because our system of government is made for that religious and moral frame work and is wholly inadequate to govern any other kind of people

is saying our system of government can only work if the population is majority Christian... ergo, non-Christian populations can't make it work.

What are the "other kind of people" you're referring to?

Edit: You didn't use the term "representative democracy" but you referenced it with the phrase "our system of government".



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Zobel
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In reply to TPS_Report • 4:39p, 8/21/26
AG
"to me this means" is not relevant. it means what it says. if you read it, the answer is there.

here's the source for that phrase
Quote:
While our country remains untainted with the principles and manners which are now producing desolation in so many parts of the world; while she continues sincere, and incapable of insidious and impious policy, we shall have the strongest reason to rejoice in the local destination assigned us by Providence. But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation while it is practicing iniquity and extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candor, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world; because we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

John Adams, second President of the US, primary author of Massachusetts constitution if 1780*, signer of the Declaration of Independence, etc.
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Rocag
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In reply to Zobel • 4:46p, 8/21/26
AG
It's not a strawman when it is legitimately how the term is often used. Just because you've defined it one way doesn't mean everyone else in the world is obligated to use your definition. My constant argument through this thread is that the term "Christian nation" is so poorly defined that debating about whether or not the United States is one is almost pointless. Almost every person you talk to defines it differently.

I'd further argue that very few people are upset about the very limited definitions of 'Christian nation' such as that Christianity is the most common religion or that Christianity was the most influential religion in the United State's formation and history. Or that Christians are one of the most influential voting blocks, but even then I'm not sure how important that statement is. It implies that Christians largely share the same political point of view which historically has not been a valid statement at all. Christians have been on both sides of every major political disagreement in the nation's history.

So you can say that the government should be Christian in that represents Christians, but which Christians? Without a shared political platform you can't just break politics down into Christian vs non-Christian.
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Zobel
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In reply to Rocag • 5:05p, 8/21/26
AG
i mean, you're arguing with other people and not me. i can't help you with how others might define it, sorry.

how does me saying "the government should be Christians" get anywhere near a question of how various Christians should vote or be politically aligned?

i think Christians should vote for Christians in much the same way that i think republicans should vote for republicans and democrats should vote for democrats.

Christians should not vote for people who are foreign to their faith and moral worldview - like, for example, if a pagan who practiced demonic or human sacrifice were running for office, Christians should not vote for that. Or an atheist who is opposed to the Christian faith on principle, Christians should not vote for that.

"Christians are not a monolithic political body" doesn't seem to bear any relevance here.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Zobel • 5:13p, 8/21/26
AG
Zobel said:
i mean, you're arguing with other people and not me. i can't help you with how others might define it, sorry.

how does me saying "the government should be Christians" get anywhere near a question of how various Christians should vote or be politically aligned?

i think Christians should vote for Christians in much the same way that i think republicans should vote for republicans and democrats should vote for democrats.

Christians should not vote for people who are foreign to their faith and moral worldview - like, for example, if a pagan who practiced demonic or human sacrifice were running for office, Christians should not vote for that. Or an atheist who is opposed to the Christian faith on principle, Christians should not vote for that.

"Christians are not a monolithic political body" doesn't seem to bear any relevance here.

Great post. The problem is that there are people who want to completely re define what this country is and stands for. They want to re write history,
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TPS_Report
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In reply to Zobel • 5:19p, 8/21/26
AG
Zobel said:
i mean, you're arguing with other people and not me. i can't help you with how others might define it, sorry.

how does me saying "the government should be Christians" get anywhere near a question of how various Christians should vote or be politically aligned?

i think Christians should vote for Christians in much the same way that i think republicans should vote for republicans and democrats should vote for democrats.

Christians should not vote for people who are foreign to their faith and moral worldview - like, for example, if a pagan who practiced demonic or human sacrifice were running for office, Christians should not vote for that. Or an atheist who is opposed to the Christian faith on principle, Christians should not vote for that.

"Christians are not a monolithic political body" doesn't seem to bear any relevance here.

What do you mean "the government should be Christians" ?



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Rocag
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In reply to Zobel • 5:23p, 8/21/26
AG
Nothing in any of my posts was concerned with how I thought Christians ought to vote. "America is a Christian nation" and "Christians should only vote for other Christians" are two completely separate statements. I frankly don't care whether you think Christians should only vote for other Christians or not. It seems politically inefficient from my point of view, but so what?

The only definition of Christian nation that really upsets me is when it is used to argue that Christians and Christianity in general should be extended rights and privileges from our government that are denied to all others. Otherwise I find the argument mostly irrelevant.



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dermdoc
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In reply to Rocag • 5:28p, 8/21/26
AG
Rocag said:
Nothing in any of my posts was concerned with how I thought Christians ought to vote. "America is a Christian nation" and "Christians should only vote for other Christians" are two completely separate statements. I frankly don't care whether you think Christians should only vote for other Christians or not. It seems politically inefficient from my point of view, but so what?

The only definition of Christian nation that really upsets me is when it is used to argue that Christians and Christianity in general should be extended rights and privileges from our government that are denied to all others. Otherwise I find the argument mostly irrelevant.




I agree. My problem is when people try to deny how this country was founded. And what its principles were. Don't rewrite history.
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Zobel
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In reply to TPS_Report • 5:40p, 8/21/26
AG
what do you mean by "what"?
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dermdoc
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5:40p, 8/21/26
AG
We are not a theocracy. And hopefully will never be one. But we were founded on Judeo Christian principles. And to deny that is stupid.
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In reply to Zobel • 5:42p, 8/21/26
AG
Zobel said:
what do you mean by "what"?

Do you believe the Government should only consist of Christians?



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Zobel
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In reply to Rocag • 5:44p, 8/21/26
AG
ok. you wrote a two whole paragraphs specifically about whether or not Christians share political viewpoints and whether a Christian government can represent Christians who disagree about things politically and how politics breaks down (or doesn't) on Christian / non-Christian lines. why'd you bring it up then?

honestly i'm lost.

so basically you got preemptively upset about something nobody said, so you came in here to say that was bad, but otherwise you don't care?

who are you talking to then, exactly? just like, making sure nobody says this thing you don't like?

i think the designated hitter is bad, it really upsets me. people should not say that its good in this thread.
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Zobel
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In reply to TPS_Report • 5:45p, 8/21/26
AG
what do you mean when you said "should only consist?"
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In reply to TPS_Report • 5:47p, 8/21/26
AG
TPS_Report said:
Zobel said:
what do you mean by "what"?

Do you believe the Government should only consist of Christians?

What are you concerned about with Christian politicians?
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