I wonder how he feels about the current pope?

The simplest analogy to explain this to a non Catholic (apology if I'm incorrectly presuming this about you) is that of a military service member and the president of the United States. You would still salute the president and keep reverence towards his office even if you personally disagree with him on a personal level. You do so because you have reverence for the Constitution (Scripture) and the country (church). The individual who is truly leading you on a day to day is your sergeant (local Priest) and lieutenant (bishop).

FIDO95 said:

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For those not familiar with Scott Hahn, he is a former Presbyterian minister who converted to Catholicism.

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I would tend to believe there are converts on both sides that have had poor experiences in their respective initial churches. Didn't hear the Old Testament for two years? Psalms? Sounds like a bad church.

I will say the liturgy we follow, even in a reformed Baptist church, is impactful, even if it's viewed as illegitimate in a Catholic's eyes. So I do at least somewhat understand that part of what he was getting at. I could never go back to some of the more mainstream Protestant church rock concerts…I mean services.

Appreciate this post. For Catholics (or other high church folks) any ideas on how to help your children see the beauty of the mass? I'm all ears. As a cradle Catholic, I was absolutely bored out of my mind at mass, which is why it was so easy for me to fall away to evangelicalism for a decade of my life.

FIDO95 said:

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The simplest analogy to explain this to a non Catholic (apology if I'm incorrectly presuming this about you) is that of a military service member and the president of the United States. You would still salute the president and keep reverence towards his office even if you personally disagree with him on a personal level. You do so because you have reverence for the Constitution (Scripture) and the country (church). The individual who is truly leading you on a day to day is your sergeant (local Priest) and lieutenant (bishop).

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If a commander is an open traitor and there is no means to lawfully remove him from that position, I would disagree. And a pastor's role is very different from an NCO or junior officer. The deluge of sexual abuse cases and incidents in Catholic and evangelical churches proves the necessity of lay intervention and governance. But that probably goes back to our radically differing opinions on the priesthood and who has it.

I think one thing we can perhaps find some unity on is the fact that our children look up to us as parents. They should see our involvement in church and relationship with God something we long for each week. Our children should be seeing us sing the great hymns and boldly reciting the great confessions and creeds of the faith. This is why we insisted on finding a church that was focused on family and everyone being together during the worship service.

From a protestant perspective, we have seen that kids are often essentially shipped off into their own silo of children's church or youth focused church. Now, there isn't anything inherently wrong with this, and can be embraced in perhaps a balanced approach that is sound doctrinally and not over the top. But a lot of youth groups I have seen over the years are so focused on pure entertainment with a little piece of Jesus. So when they leave the youth group age, they come to the "old people" church and are bored to death and go find something else that is entertaining.

I am sure you will not be reading any John Piper, but can likely appreciate one of his thoughts from a Christmas devotional we just went through, where it speaks the idea that Parents should be excited and model excitement for Christmas and the advent of Christ so that our children find excitement in it. If all we are excited about is Santa and wrapping presents, that is all they will be excited for.

I'll think on this. Catholic Churches (for the most part) do not allow for a separate children's church for the very reason that children are a part of the church and need to be learning along with us.

That said, maybe some of my issues with mass as a child was because "we have to go" was the reason I got from my mom most times lol. As soon as we were later in HS, that "we have to go" suddenly relaxed quite a bit. Sort of made the whole thing seem like "going is a good idea if you have time" definitely no excitement

I can tell you are genuine about your relationship with Christ and I would go so far as to say you're excited about it. I have no idea your home life, but I would just encourage you to model that and let your children see the heart you have for God and his church. I know I struggle with it, since I am a type B kind of person, often wanting to hold my emotions in and whatnot. In church, I never wanted to be heard singing, but have been challenged with the idea of letting it be heard. Specifically let my son hear the joyful singing, not a stoic father moving his lips.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I can tell you are genuine about your relationship with Christ and I would go so far as to say you're excited about it. I have no idea your home life, but I would just encourage you to model that and let your children see the heart you have for God and his church. I know I struggle with it, since I am a type B kind of person, often wanting to hold my emotions in and whatnot. In church, I never wanted to be heard singing, but have been challenged with the idea of letting it be heard. Specifically let my son hear the joyful singing, not a stoic father moving his lips.

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Agreed. I think most of us were raised by fathers who saw emotion of any kind as weakness. Even good emotion. Trying to figure out where to redraw that line is an interesting task. I appreciate your advice here

JoeAggie5 said:

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Father of 9 here.....some simple suggestions for Mass for children ----- and please know I am far from perfect, we get to go to Mass every Sunday and almost every Sunday my wife and I are taking one of our children out to calm them down, bathroom, etc.

I'm assuming you have at least one child under 7 so...
- get them a Mass book that they can follow along
- explain to them what's happening (this could be good for you too, it is for me)
- sit closer to the front so they can see what's happening

For older kids
- replace "We have to go to Mass" with "We get to go to Mass"
- I focus on The Garden of Gethsemane scripture - we can stand watch for an hour
- It's okay to acknowledge - hey Mass is boring at times, but why are we there and this is the benefit I've seen from going to Mass in my own life.
- Reading the readings before Mass helps them understand what the Priest or Deacon will be talking about during homily

And at the end of the day, if you're Catholic Church isn't meeting your needs, it's okay to find another Catholic Church. Over the years my family has moved on from one Catholic Parish to another for various reasons, it stinks not going to the closest one, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

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Appreciate this. We have 5, 8 years old and under. It hasn't been much of a concern before, because they aren't old enough to understand no matter how hard you try. Just help keep them quiet. But it's clear our 8 year old has gotten to that point that he's capable of understanding the bigger picture a bit, and as such, when he complains of boredom he's capable of understanding why pushing though it is improtant. Your last 4 points help a ton.

747Ag said:

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Scott Hahn and his wife Kimberly are great. Wonderful salt of the earth people. They used to host college students in their home years ago to provide them a place to live and integrate them into their family life. Two at a time, one male and one female student. As a senior in college, my wife had that privilege to live with them. We went back to Steubenville (my first trip actually) soon after our wedding and had the privilege to dine with them. Great people. Always loved their books and talks. Great material for Bible studies... Revelation. Gospel of John.

Another father of 9 here... we've used the "get to go to Mass" line as well. Being bored at Mass, though, calls to mind proper disposition, given the maturity of the kids. It's not ultimately about us, but rather Our Blessed Lord and giving Him the worship we owe Him in justice. Just a friendly caution. Also, much of this depends on how we live out discipleship and love for our Lord every day, and not just Sunday during Mass. Do your kids see you taking time for personal prayer? Do you pray daily as a family? Do you take time for catechetical moments, especially if the kids go to school outside of the home? Liturgical living? There's so many ways to foster faith, hope, and charity within your family that hopefully it precludes the boredom. Essentially, make the faith a way of life in your home.

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Trying to do your second paragraph to the best of your ability, praying that it helps. Sort of one of those "can't prove a negative thing". If that happened in my childhood, would the journey have been easier for me and my brothers still be in the faith? I think so, which is why I try to do it.

747Ag said:

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Scott Hahn and his wife Kimberly are great. Wonderful salt of the earth people. They used to host college students in their home years ago to provide them a place to live and integrate them into their family life. Two at a time, one male and one female student. As a senior in college, my wife had that privilege to live with them. We went back to Steubenville (my first trip actually) soon after our wedding and had the privilege to dine with them. Great people. Always loved their books and talks. Great material for Bible studies... Revelation. Gospel of John.

Another father of 9 here... we've used the "get to go to Mass" line as well. Being bored at Mass, though, calls to mind proper disposition, given the maturity of the kids. It's not ultimately about us, but rather Our Blessed Lord and giving Him the worship we owe Him in justice. Just a friendly caution. Also, much of this depends on how we live out discipleship and love for our Lord every day, and not just Sunday during Mass. Do your kids see you taking time for personal prayer? Do you pray daily as a family? Do you take time for catechetical moments, especially if the kids go to school outside of the home? Liturgical living? There's so many ways to foster faith, hope, and charity within your family that hopefully it precludes the boredom. Essentially, make the faith a way of life in your home.

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Attending church is great for kids. But you are correct, the daily walk is much more important. Kids watch more than they listen.

We never pressured our kids or taught them any fear based Christianity. My wife's parents were very faithful to teach them Bible stories. I was not as good at that. And our church was a very loving group of Christians.

But we prayed together (still do) and I am trying to be much more intentional with my grandkids. They each have a personal Psalm (112 and 121) that I read to them almost everytime I am around them.

I am convinced that having a Christ centered home life is key.

And I think that "forcing" Christianity never works.

dermdoc said:

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747Ag said:

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Scott Hahn and his wife Kimberly are great. Wonderful salt of the earth people. They used to host college students in their home years ago to provide them a place to live and integrate them into their family life. Two at a time, one male and one female student. As a senior in college, my wife had that privilege to live with them. We went back to Steubenville (my first trip actually) soon after our wedding and had the privilege to dine with them. Great people. Always loved their books and talks. Great material for Bible studies... Revelation. Gospel of John.

Another father of 9 here... we've used the "get to go to Mass" line as well. Being bored at Mass, though, calls to mind proper disposition, given the maturity of the kids. It's not ultimately about us, but rather Our Blessed Lord and giving Him the worship we owe Him in justice. Just a friendly caution. Also, much of this depends on how we live out discipleship and love for our Lord every day, and not just Sunday during Mass. Do your kids see you taking time for personal prayer? Do you pray daily as a family? Do you take time for catechetical moments, especially if the kids go to school outside of the home? Liturgical living? There's so many ways to foster faith, hope, and charity within your family that hopefully it precludes the boredom. Essentially, make the faith a way of life in your home.

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But we prayed together (still do) and Iam trying to be much more intentional with my grandkids. They each have a personal Psalm (112 and 121) that Iread to them almost everytime I am around them.

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This is awesome. Grandparents have such a unique and special opportunity to impact their grandkids.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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747Ag said:

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Scott Hahn and his wife Kimberly are great. Wonderful salt of the earth people. They used to host college students in their home years ago to provide them a place to live and integrate them into their family life. Two at a time, one male and one female student. As a senior in college, my wife had that privilege to live with them. We went back to Steubenville (my first trip actually) soon after our wedding and had the privilege to dine with them. Great people. Always loved their books and talks. Great material for Bible studies... Revelation. Gospel of John.

Another father of 9 here... we've used the "get to go to Mass" line as well. Being bored at Mass, though, calls to mind proper disposition, given the maturity of the kids. It's not ultimately about us, but rather Our Blessed Lord and giving Him the worship we owe Him in justice. Just a friendly caution. Also, much of this depends on how we live out discipleship and love for our Lord every day, and not just Sunday during Mass. Do your kids see you taking time for personal prayer? Do you pray daily as a family? Do you take time for catechetical moments, especially if the kids go to school outside of the home? Liturgical living? There's so many ways to foster faith, hope, and charity within your family that hopefully it precludes the boredom. Essentially, make the faith a way of life in your home.

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But we prayed together (still do) and Iam trying to be much more intentional with my grandkids. They each have a personal Psalm (112 and 121) that I read to them almost everytime I am around them.

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This is awesome. Grandparents have such a unique and special opportunity to impact their grandkids.

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Here here for grandparents! Paternal grandparents were instrumental for me. Finally hit me in college.

And I forgot my mom. My dad went to be with the Lord before my kids were born but my mom was a great Christian role model for my kids. Not as intentional as my wife's parents but just always did the right thing. And full of love.

Good post.

747Ag said:

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Scott Hahn and his wife Kimberly are great. Wonderful salt of the earth people. They used to host college students in their home years ago to provide them a place to live and integrate them into their family life. Two at a time, one male and one female student. As a senior in college, my wife had that privilege to live with them. We went back to Steubenville (my first trip actually) soon after our wedding and had the privilege to dine with them. Great people. Always loved their books and talks. Great material for Bible studies... Revelation. Gospel of John.

Another father of 9 here... we've used the "get to go to Mass" line as well. Being bored at Mass, though, calls to mind proper disposition, given the maturity of the kids. It's not ultimately about us, but rather Our Blessed Lord and giving Him the worship we owe Him in justice. Just a friendly caution. Also, much of this depends on how we live out discipleship and love for our Lord every day, and not just Sunday during Mass. Do your kids see you taking time for personal prayer? Do you pray daily as a family? Do you take time for catechetical moments, especially if the kids go to school outside of the home? Liturgical living? There's so many ways to foster faith, hope, and charity within your family that hopefully it precludes the boredom. Essentially, make the faith a way of life in your home.

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Also a good post.

If you understand what's going on yourself and know why you're there, boredom will happen but they'll never lack for answers and knowledge. I think we'd be remiss to expect a kid to never be bored or go through a phase.

Part of what we do with liturgy is to incline the body and heart even if the brain hasn't caught up. We get to unpack that as kids age and ask questions. When we read together at home it helps to ask questions about what's read or discussed, and prime them. Our family talks about how there's our culture, and other family cultures, or people inside the church and outside the church, which is why our rhythms are distinct and different.

Kids can also be taught what is beautiful at a young age. My youngest loves hymns and choral music to the point that it and the LotR soundtrack are tied for her favorites. Beauty gives them something to immerse themselves in at those moments, with stained glass, iconography, or architecture. There's so much to the mind that you can capture if you don't strip beauty out of churches.

AGC said:

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747Ag said:

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Scott Hahn and his wife Kimberly are great. Wonderful salt of the earth people. They used to host college students in their home years ago to provide them a place to live and integrate them into their family life. Two at a time, one male and one female student. As a senior in college, my wife had that privilege to live with them. We went back to Steubenville (my first trip actually) soon after our wedding and had the privilege to dine with them. Great people. Always loved their books and talks. Great material for Bible studies... Revelation. Gospel of John.

Another father of 9 here... we've used the "get to go to Mass" line as well. Being bored at Mass, though, calls to mind proper disposition, given the maturity of the kids. It's not ultimately about us, but rather Our Blessed Lord and giving Him the worship we owe Him in justice. Just a friendly caution. Also, much of this depends on how we live out discipleship and love for our Lord every day, and not just Sunday during Mass. Do your kids see you taking time for personal prayer? Do you pray daily as a family? Do you take time for catechetical moments, especially if the kids go to school outside of the home? Liturgical living? There's so many ways to foster faith, hope, and charity within your family that hopefully it precludes the boredom. Essentially, make the faith a way of life in your home.

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Also a good post.

If you understand what's going on yourself and know why you're there, boredom will happen but they'll never lack for answers and knowledge. I think we'd be remiss to expect a kid to never be bored or go through a phase.

Part of what we do with liturgy is to incline the body and heart even if the brain hasn't caught up. We get to unpack that as kids age and ask questions. When we read together at home it helps to ask questions about what's read or discussed, and prime them. Our family talks about how there's our culture, and other family cultures, or people inside the church and outside the church, which is why our rhythms are distinct and different.

Kids can also be taught what is beautiful at a young age. My youngest loves hymns and choral music to the point that it and the LotR soundtrack are tied for her favorites. Beauty gives them something to immerse themselves in at those moments, with stained glass, iconography, or architecture. There's so much to the mind that you can capture if you don't strip beauty out of churches.

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Beauty. Yes! Music. Art. Architecture. Circling back to another Hahn story... We drove up to Keller for a presentation he was giving at St. Elizabeth Ann Seton over 20 years ago. The building was fairly new. Yet, it was constructed with many features pointing back to the great basilicas of yore. I recall him remarking about the frescos (stained glass was yet to be completed) something to the effect of it telling the story of salvation through art. Indeed. And the children present were often looking around at the paintings and statuary somewhat enthralled with it. It does form a baseline in us. It does lift/point our souls to God.

Father of 10 here.

We have always sat in front which does help with the younger ones. All of our children have served as Altar Servers when they were old enough and mature enough.

We only have 2 minor children at home now and they both enjoy attending Mass.

We also use the "We get to go to Mass" statement. I think it also helped that My Wife and I also often serve in some capacity. (Lector, Eucharistic Minister, Sacristan, Usher)

10andBOUNCE said:

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FIDO95 said:

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For those not familiar with Scott Hahn, he is a former Presbyterian minister who converted to Catholicism.

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I would tend to believe there are converts on both sides that have had poor experiences in their respective initial churches. Didn't hear the Old Testament for two years? Psalms? Sounds like a bad church.

I will say the liturgy we follow, even in a reformed Baptist church, is impactful, even if it's viewed as illegitimate in a Catholic's eyes. So I do at least somewhat understand that part of what he was getting at. I could never go back to some of the more mainstream Protestant church rock concerts…I mean services.

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No Catholic should be saying a Protestant mass in "illegitimate". If they did, they owe you an apology.

"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." Matt 18:20

I have in the past enjoyed go to Protestant services. When I was at A&M, I would sometimes go with my buddies to Grace Bible Church and I often got something out of that service. The issue for me as a Catholic isn't that there is something "illegitimate" with the service. The issue for me I feel like I am missing out when I don't take part in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. I also enjoy the reverence associated with a more liturgical service, but I understand that that is not for everyone. My sister never felt like she got anything out of the Catholic mass. Religion and Christ was never all that important to her. Over the past 10-15 years, she has been attending a local non-denominational bible church. She prays more regularly now then she ever did as a Catholic. Is it better to be bad Catholic or a good Christian? I think the answer is quite obvious.

I think it is also important to point out that for a Catholic, proper worship is a sacrificial exercise. This idea of attending church service shouldn't be about the music or the priest/pastor. Rather, it should be a time that we sacrifice of ourselves to give glory to God. It's not about "what I get out of it" as much as "what I can give of myself to glory of God".

Dad-O-Lot said:

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Father of 10 here.

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Username checks out.

I would agree with your other statements in regard to how you phrase attending service. "We have to go" vs "We get to go".

When mine were younger, I would often ask them questions when we got back to the truck about the readings and/or the homily. Whichever one got the most answers correct, got to pick where we ate after Mass. Food is an amazing motivator to get little ones to pay more attention.

This may not apply because of the age of your children, but getting mine involved with the Mass through service, altar service and as lectors, really helped made my kids eager to go to Mass. We also used the children's Mass books when they were younger.

What is this criteria for "best" Catholic?

Dad of 8 here!

PabloSerna said:

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What is this criteria for "best" Catholic?

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I don't understand your question. What are you referring to?

I think we should all strive to be Christ-like. The "best" Catholic/Christian is the one best utilizing the gifts, the understanding, and grace that God had given to them. I'm not a judge of someone's effort but I suspect that is going to end in a different results in different people.

"4 For just as we have many parts in one body and all the body's parts do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually parts of one another. 6 However, since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to use them properly: if prophecy, in proportion to one's faith; 7 if service, in the act of serving; or the one who teaches, in the act of teaching; 8 or the one who exhorts, in the work of exhortation; the one who gives, with generosity; the one who is in leadership, with diligence; the one who shows mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12: 4-8

Maybe I misunderstood. I don't see the connection.

From my experience, the people that have inspired me the most were older, very prayerful people that radiated the love of God with just their presence.

I'm thinking particularly of my great-grandmother who was constantly praying either a rosary, a chaplet, a novena, or some prayer for someone in the family. She was a cradle Catholic as you say.

Her example was passed down to my Grandma (d.2006) and my mom (84 yrs.) who are these prayer warrior types that have inspired me to carry a rosary as well.

I can remember as a kid going to the Shrine of Our Lady of San Juan (near McAllen, TX) and seeing the pilgrims crawling on their knees up to the altar- no doubt fulfilling a "promise" or "offering" for a loved one.

I very much enjoy Scott Hahn and his books, especially "The Supper of the Lamb"- he has an incredible conversion story. I have even attended a Marian conference or two where he and his wife spoke. Great folks.

Ah, now I understand what you were asking in regards to "best Catholics are former Protestants"?

There is no science behind that statement. I have just observed many "cradle Catholics" doing things without the underlying knowledge of why it is so. If you are in that boat, you are missing much of the beauty the Catholic Church has to offer. As I stated, it's easy to take things for granted. "Former Protestants" are often adults who have taken their faith formation more seriously as it is a choice they are making. Most RCIA programs are really good and it helps that those students want to be there. This is opposed to some prepubescent teens attending CCD/Confirmation because their parents made them go.

I would definitely agree with you and others that Grandparents are a huge influence. My grandfather was the most pious man I ever knew. He would pray the Rosary daily and he always had an extra Rosary in his pocket because he would give away the one in his hand away if someone asked him about it. I didn't fully understand it as a child but he would often end a conversation with "God willing". Grandpa, we are coming to visit, see you soon; Yes. God willing. Grandpa are the Cowboys going to win; Yes. God wiling. Grandpa, how did you survive WW2 (he fought in the 36th Infantry). God willing. I now understand he was completely at peace with his life because everything, good or bad, would play out as per God's will.

After my Grandmother past away, we were clearing out her things and we found his old WW2 Army ID bracelet. He knew if he died in combat, this bracelet would be one of the final things my grandmother would receive. On the back of it, he had had engraved, "God bless you, Mila". His final prayer would have been for God's blessing on his wife. That's how he lived his life, always sacrificing for others just as Christ sacrificed for us.