Wasn't John David Crow's son killed in a similar fashion - as a Good Samaritan stopping to help people with car trouble on the side of the highway?

A third response is to be willing to help, but to also be careful and to take precautions while doing so.

Hopefully he was a Christian

10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

UTExan said:

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I remember the Timothy Merka case in Brazos County.
He was beaten to death with a tire iron/jack after stopping to help 2 bad guys. I don't really care what you all here think but the ideal outcome would be the Good Samaritan having the tactical awareness, training and sense to dispatch his attacker prior to the bad guy getting the drop on him. It rids the earth of a murderer in accordance with law.

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How exactly does "tactical awareness" work when you stop to help someone with car trouble? Whether it's checking an engine or changing a tire, you're going to be vulnerable unless you have a second guy holding a gun on everyone while you do your repair. This sounds like some vigilante fantasy that has nothing at all to do with Christianity. If you have even half a thought that you may need to draw down and shoot someone asking for help, then please just keep moving.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

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Why not be a caregiver in a hospital in the Democratic Republic of Congo during an Ebola outbreak and just not wear protective gear? That's pretty much what you are advocating here: needless death and suffering for a romanticized ideal thinking that your martyrdom will earn you something from God.
Hint: HE does the work that saves us. Everything else is idolatry.

UTExan said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

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Why not be a caregiver in a hospital in the Democratic Republic of Congo during an Ebola outbreak and just not wear protective gear? That's pretty much what you are advocating here: needless death and suffering for a romanticized ideal thinking that your martyrdom will earn you something from God.
Hint: HE does the work that saves us. Everything else is idolatry.

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Him that loses his life for goodness will gain it. In case the reference was too subtle, Jesus Himself came to Earth and was killed by the people he was helping. Hard to be more Christ-like than having the same thing happen to you. Being so attached to this life that you are constantly on guard and ready to kill, even when rendering aide is not the sign of a Christian heart

You sound like Peter in the garden, whipping out his sword, as if you can save the world with a weapon.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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UTExan said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

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Why not be a caregiver in a hospital in the Democratic Republic of Congo during an Ebola outbreak and just not wear protective gear? That's pretty much what you are advocating here: needless death and suffering for a romanticized ideal thinking that your martyrdom will earn you something from God.
Hint: HE does the work that saves us. Everything else is idolatry.

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Him that loses his life for goodness will gain it. In case the reference was too subtle, Jesus Himself came to Earth and was killed by the people he was helping. Hard to be more Christ-like than having the same thing happen to you. Being so attached to this life that you are constantly on guard and ready to kill, even when rendering aide is not the sign of a Christian heart

You sound like Peter in the garden, whipping out his sword, as if you can save the world with a weapon.

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1.) you are not Jesus. Your blood atones for no sin;
2.) to waste your life for no purpose is being a bad steward of the resources with which God has entrusted to you;
3.) spending your life in service is great! Medical, first responder or human welfare services is a calling. You "spend" your life by labor to serve others, not by allowing them to cut it short and cheat others of the service/ministry you render.
4.) facilitating a murderer's sin by not resisting crime is a sin in itself. Turn the other cheek when you are persecuted for being Christian. Resist crime by reacting with lawful force against a sociopathic predator. HTH.

UTExan said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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UTExan said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

---

Why not be a caregiver in a hospital in the Democratic Republic of Congo during an Ebola outbreak and just not wear protective gear? That's pretty much what you are advocating here: needless death and suffering for a romanticized ideal thinking that your martyrdom will earn you something from God.
Hint: HE does the work that saves us. Everything else is idolatry.

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Him that loses his life for goodness will gain it. In case the reference was too subtle, Jesus Himself came to Earth and was killed by the people he was helping. Hard to be more Christ-like than having the same thing happen to you. Being so attached to this life that you are constantly on guard and ready to kill, even when rendering aide is not the sign of a Christian heart

You sound like Peter in the garden, whipping out his sword, as if you can save the world with a weapon.

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1.) you are not Jesus. Your blood atones for no sin;
2.) to waste your life for no purpose is being a bad steward of the resources with which God has entrusted to you;
3.) spending your life in service is great! Medical, first responder or human welfare services is a calling. You "spend" your life by labor to serve others, not by allowing them to cut it short and cheat others of the service/ministry you render.
4.) facilitating a murderer's sin by not resisting crime is a sin in itself. Turn the other cheek when you are persecuted for being Christian. Resist crime by reacting with lawful force against a sociopathic predator. HTH.

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Responding by point
1) I should probably spend the entire post responding to this point. I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. Being Christian literally means imitating Christ. Christ himself told us to take up our cross and expect to be hated and persecuted as he was. If I bleed for Christ, then my blood joins with his. This is basic and fundamental to Christianity. It's the reason that Christian martyrs are so loved and revered. It's the reason that the early Church had to specifically forbid Christians from aggressively seeking out martyrdom. The whole idea that my blood, my suffering, and my death are worthless because I'm not Jesus is so opposite to all Christian teaching that I'm surprised to hear another Christian even state it.

Regarding 4), this man was persecuted for helping someone in need. He was a literal Good Samaritan. In this story, Jesus exalted a merciful heretic over a Levite and a priest. This man was doing the most Christian thing a person could do, offering aide to someone in need. The fact that he died doing so makes him a Christian martyr, whether he was a heretic in his beliefs or not.

For the rest, I'll say that I do not seek out martyrdom. I don't want to suffer. I would much rather continue to live my life in the best way possible and help people where I can. However, if martyrdom finds me while I'm living my life, then I'll consider myself lucky to be counted as one

10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

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It really doesn't matter if it wasn't done in the name of Christ and his glory

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Says who? Where do you get that from?

For simplicity's sake, just taking this straight from the Heidelberg Catechism.

Q & A 91
Q. What are good works?

A. Only those which are done out of true faith,1 conform to God's law,2 and are done for God's glory;3 and not those based on our own opinion or human tradition.4

1 John 15:5; Heb. 11:6
2 Lev. 18:4; 1 Sam. 15:22; Eph. 2:10
3 1 Cor. 10:31
4 Deut. 12:32; Isa. 29:13; Ezek. 20:18-19; Matt. 15:7-9

ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

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It really doesn't matter if it wasn't done in the name of Christ and his glory

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Says who? Where do you get that from?

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Martin Luther. Ulrich Zwingli. John Calvin. Basically any and all of the original reformers taught this.

The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

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It really doesn't matter if it wasn't done in the name of Christ and his glory

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Says who? Where do you get that from?

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Martin Luther. Ulrich Zwingli. John Calvin. Basically any and all of the original reformers taught this.

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So we do follow church leaders and tradition?

10andBOUNCE said:

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For simplicity's sake, just taking this straight from the Heidelberg Catechism.

Q & A 91
Q. What are good works?

A. Only those which are done out of true faith,1 conform to God's law,2 and are done for God's glory;3 and not those based on our own opinion or human tradition.4

1 John 15:5; Heb. 11:6
2 Lev. 18:4; 1 Sam. 15:22; Eph. 2:10
3 1 Cor. 10:31
4 Deut. 12:32; Isa. 29:13; Ezek. 20:18-19; Matt. 15:7-9

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Mind spelling out those scripture references? I don't have all of them memorized and it would be very time consuming to look up each of them

Edit:
While I'm waiting, I'd like some more clarification. So the Good Samaritan in Jesus' tale didn't perform a good deed by helping the injured man on the road? Seems like he would instantly fail the "true faith" portion of the test. If so, why is Jesus telling us a story about a random person that did a random thing?

Furthermore, where do we set the line for "true faith"? If "true faith" is the Christian faith, then that negates everything prior to the Resurrection at the earliest. Maybe even later if you count the Council of Jerusalem or the penning of the Gospels. Even if we're just talking about Christianity as the "true faith", which Christianity? There are a lot. Does one need to be a reformed protestant for their deeds to count as good deeds? What about other protestants, Catholics, EO or even Seventh Day adventists or Jehovah's Witnesses? Whose good deeds actually count as good deeds? Does that also mean that no good deeds were ever done prior to the Resurrection? I feel like the Bible directly contradicts this, so maybe there's partial credit for the OT?

Second and third parts: What is God's Law, the Torah? What else would possible be God's Law if not? Finally, if all good deeds must be done for God's glory, is there some ritual for this? Some kind of prayer or hand gesture that let's God know that this particular deed is being done for His sake and not any other reason?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

---

It really doesn't matter if it wasn't done in the name of Christ and his glory

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Says who? Where do you get that from?

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Martin Luther. Ulrich Zwingli. John Calvin. Basically any and all of the original reformers taught this.

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So we do follow church leaders and tradition?

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I certainly do. We all do! I do not follow those guys.

It sounds like you are throwing common sense to the wind. I think that is what people question. As mentioned, in today's world, use your cell phone and call for help. I am a AAA member and they will send someone out to help even if I do not own that car.

Much safer for all concerned.

The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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The Banned said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Hopefully he was a Christian

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I can't think of anything more Christian than helping someone despite having no obligation or hope of reward and then losing your life for it.

---

It really doesn't matter if it wasn't done in the name of Christ and his glory

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Says who? Where do you get that from?

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Martin Luther. Ulrich Zwingli. John Calvin. Basically any and all of the original reformers taught this.

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So we do follow church leaders and tradition?

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I certainly do. We all do! I do not follow those guys.

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Gotcha

SW AG80 said:

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It sounds like you are throwing common sense to the wind. I think that is what people question. As mentioned, in today's world, use your cell phone and call for help. I am a AAA member and they will send someone out to help even if I do not own that car.

Much safer for all concerned.

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I'm not trying to argue against common sense. However, there is no way to be 100% safe when helping someone. Whether it's helping with a flat tire, treating a sick person in the hospital, or running a homeless shelter. Doing good comes with risk. Even stopping, calling AAA and sitting in your car doesn't really make you safe. Even if you drive off, maybe they attack the AAA guy. I'm just advocating doing the right thing and letting the chips fall where they may, and most of all not letting fear of negative consequences get in the way of doing good

Look, I'm not like Zobel with these message board super powers of answering dozens of questions in a single dissertation multiple times per day

Yes, I believe it needs to be a true faith and not a false religion like JW or Mormonism. No, you don't have to be a reformed Protestant in order to perform truly good works. At the end of the day, truly good works that glorify Christ will be motivated by a heart after God. Only God knows the heart.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart."

ramblin_ag02 said:

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SW AG80 said:

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It sounds like you are throwing common sense to the wind. I think that is what people question. As mentioned, in today's world, use your cell phone and call for help. I am a AAA member and they will send someone out to help even if I do not own that car.

Much safer for all concerned.

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I'm not trying to argue against common sense. However, there is no way to be 100% safe when helping someone. Whether it's helping with a flat tire, treating a sick person in the hospital, or running a homeless shelter. Doing good comes with risk. Even stopping, calling AAA and sitting in your car doesn't really make you safe. Even if you drive off, maybe they attack the AAA guy. I'm just advocating doing the right thing and letting the chips fall where they may, and most of all not letting fear of negative consequences get in the way of doing good

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First of all, are you an ID doc? Even if not, you are aware that viruses and bacteria operate by natural laws and to preserve human health we have prophylaxes to mitigate the effects of pathogens. Human predators often act in a similar fashion as those pathogens: looking for a weak spot to exploit and destroy healthy living cells. Removing the predatory from society is really the same as fighting diseases and is not an exercise in revenge; it is merely a response to limit the damage the pathogen can do. IDK any more theologically profound way to convey this, but if a predator refuses to respond to the gospel of grace and curtail his predatory activity, then society must step in to limit that damage. Hence, Paul's admonition to pray for those in authority so that we could have peace and order.

Normal people like to stop and try and help. Always . Thank God for that.

Just a small clarification…it is total depravity but not utter depravity.

So, every part of our being is now tainted by sin and seeks after that which is opposed to God, but we are not the most evil we could possibly be.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Just a small clarification…it is total depravity but not utter depravity.

So, every part of our being is now tainted by sin and seeks after that which is opposed to God, but we are not the most evil we could possibly be.

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But you are saying that no true good can be done unless one is of the elect and been regenerated, correct?

If I am misinterpreting what you believe, I apologize.

I just see a lot of good being done by non believers. Unless in your theology,they are secretly elect?

What if an atheist comes up with a cure for a deadly disease? An atheist soldier who gives up his life to save fellow soldiers or civilians? Is that still not considered good?

I believe God gives us common sense and wisdom. And the Holy Spirit. Good is good.

I'll have to think on this a bit more, but maybe it's perhaps like a common good just in the same way I would affirm that God does provide a common grace to all man (rains on the unbeliever just as it does the believer).

I'm talking specifically about a good work as outlined in the Bible, something an atheist is not capable of. An atheist is not able to glorify God unless they repent first and believe. God can and will use those vessels to bring about his ultimate glory and good to his people, whether it is a cure for cancer or Good Samaritan.

And I would reject obviously the idea that God gives the unregenerate true wisdom (as that only comes from God) or the Holy Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you are one of the chosen (you have been adopted into God's family).

10andBOUNCE said:

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I'll have to think on this a bit more, but maybe it's perhaps like a common good just in the same way I would affirm that God does provide a common grace to all man (rains on the unbeliever just as it does the believer).

I'm talking specifically about a good work as outlined in the Bible, something an atheist is not capable of. An atheist is not able to glorify God unless they repent first and believe. God can and will use those vessels to bring about his ultimate glory and good to his people, whether it is a cure for cancer or Good Samaritan.

And I would reject obviously the idea that God gives the unregenerate true wisdom (as that only comes from God) or the Holy Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you are one of the chosen (you have been adopted into God's family).

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So what makes a non believer do good? And what are "good works" as outlined in the Bible? The two I think of first is to help orphans and widows. I know non believers who do this.

Another thing I think is giving your life for others.

Is not the same "good" if an atheist soldier jumps on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers as if a Christian does it?

It might be good work, but it won't save that atheist soldier. All men have the law of God written on their hearts so we instinctively know between good & bad.

Frok said:

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It might be good work, but it won't save that atheist soldier. All men have the law of God written on their hearts so we instinctively know between good & bad.

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That is not the question in my opinion.

The question if a non Christian does "good", is it still "good"?

10andBOUNCE said:

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I'll have to think on this a bit more, but maybe it's perhaps like a common good just in the same way I would affirm that God does provide a common grace to all man (rains on the unbeliever just as it does the believer).

I'm talking specifically about a good work as outlined in the Bible, something an atheist is not capable of. An atheist is not able to glorify God unless they repent first and believe. God can and will use those vessels to bring about his ultimate glory and good to his people, whether it is a cure for cancer or Good Samaritan.

And I would reject obviously the idea that God gives the unregenerate true wisdom (as that only comes from God) or the Holy Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you are one of the chosen (you have been adopted into God's family).

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This is just yet another teaching Calvin and Luther had to try to massage due to their monergistic views. We already had a name for this: original sin.

Under the frame work of original sin, man, as a creation of God, has a natural pulling towards God. Because of sin this is made imperfect. So yes, we still need God for saving grace, but we aren't "totally depraved". This is exceptionally clear in one teaching abs has to create weird caveats in the other.

But since God has to be doing 100% of the acceptance of Him, then we are capable of 0%. Therefore, there is no such thing as objective good deeds apart from Christianity.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I'll have to think on this a bit more, but maybe it's perhaps like a common good just in the same way I would affirm that God does provide a common grace to all man (rains on the unbeliever just as it does the believer).

I'm talking specifically about a good work as outlined in the Bible, something an atheist is not capable of. An atheist is not able to glorify God unless they repent first and believe. God can and will use those vessels to bring about his ultimate glory and good to his people, whether it is a cure for cancer or Good Samaritan.

And I would reject obviously the idea that God gives the unregenerate true wisdom (as that only comes from God) or the Holy Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you are one of the chosen (you have been adopted into God's family).

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This is just yet another teaching Calvin and Luther had to try to massage due to their monergistic views. We already had a name for this: original sin.

Under the frame work of original sin, man, as a creation of God, has a natural pulling towards God. Because of sin this is made imperfect. So yes, we still need God for saving grace, but we aren't "totally depraved". This is exceptionally clear in one teaching abs has to create weird caveats in the other.

But since God has to be doing 100% of the acceptance of Him, then we are capable of 0%. Therefore, there is no such thing as objective good deeds apart from Christianity.

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It makes no sense.

Frok said:

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It might be good work, but it won't save that atheist soldier. All men have the law of God written on their hearts so we instinctively know between good & bad.

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The question then arises: why was he atheist?

Was it because he chose to reject a God that is all loving and wants everyone to choose Him? Was it because God didn't give him the grace to say yes? Was it because, as a child, he was told that God only chooses a certain few to be saved, intentionally leaving the unsaved behind? A proposition he felt was morally reprehensible? Or did he just choose a materialistic life because all there is is the here and now?

Weird that a guy who chose to live for worldly pleasures would give up his life for another, so maybe there are some confounding issues?