Taking this from the politics board to here at the suggestion of another poster.

To catch everyone up, this was written regarding the judge in the Daniel Penny trial and I said I couldn't agree more.

Sometimes I feel like it was to test our faith, and our ability to pray for our enemies, rather than hate them.


This is the number one thing I struggle with in my life...i despise modern leftists so much and consider them anti-Christ in nature...but Christ did not command us to hate sinners, even the most deviant and wicked ones (and there is no more wicked and evil group than the modern left, who want gay p0rn books in your childrens school libraries and support men in womens locker rooms and drag queen story hour). We are just not supposed to gather with them and let them influence us or the flock.

There is not a more detestable lot on all of the earth though. I can at least understand how a poor uneducated desperate young man may fall into the arms of the cartels, jihadist groups etc.

I have these same issues praying for what I consider to be an evil miscarriage of justice and sacrifice of innocence. But another poster suggested to bring the topic here to discuss further because it wasn't true.


Just curious about this one. Lots of people smarter than I over here.

It is possible to pray for the destruction of an enemy of God while also loving that person. Read imprecatory Psalms. Jesus often quoted them. Particularly Matt. 23.

this is where i struggle. and while the "hatred"
is not on a personal level i have a lot trouble not seeing the modern progressive movement, including progressive leaders, for what it is. It advances the destruction of innocence, decay of morality, denial of God and collapse of the church (my church of 20 years was completely destroyed by leftists.).

So as far as I can bring myself to pray is that these individual people have a change of heart and correct their path, and even in doing that i have problems because people like this judge will destroy lives around them as long as they are still breathing.

in a sense, i feel like we are letting evil win

birddog7000 said:

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Not getting into the political aspect of it because that has been addressed well by a poster above. As for our enemies, we pray for them because God has been merciful to each of us. We pray for them, so they will come to know God. We share with them His mercy with the hope they will repent and follow Jesus Christ. The more time I spend with God in prayer, the more I realize how merciful he is to me. When I know the depth of His love and mercy for me, I am better prepared to extend His mercy to others, "snatching them from the fire" as Saint Jude wrote.


Spend some time in prayer today asking God to show you all the ways he is merciful to you. It is a wonderful revelation and will reveal His great love for you!

Lamentations 3: 22-24
22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases,
his mercies never come to an end;
23 they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 "The Lord is my portion," says my soul,
"therefore I will hope in him."

---

I agree with this. Once I realized how much mercy and love I had been extended by God, it made me look at other people totally different.

TresPuertas said:

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this is where i struggle. and while the "hatred"
is not on a personal level i have a lot trouble not seeing the modern progressive movement, including progressive leaders, for what it is. It advances the destruction of innocence, decay of morality, denial of God and collapse of the church (my church of 20 years was completely destroyed by leftists.).

So as far as I can bring myself to pray is that these individual people have a change of heart and correct their path, and even in doing that i have problems because people like this judge will destroy lives around them as long as they are still breathing.

in a sense, i feel like we are letting evil win

---

I think its important to keep something else in mind too....Our country has oscillated in many ways with our society and morality. I think because of the political divisiveness the last 8 years, which at least in my 55 year experience, has affected more Americans due to a variety of reasons, but mainly the internet/social media...it seems like the degradation of society has increased. I'm not saying in some areas in has, but more so in areas that really don't exist in huge numbers. We had success with the reversal of R v Wade and other areas. I think the pendulum in the U.S. always swings back toward the middle if things go to far to the left....or to the right. Generally even people who vote democrat are a great deal more moderate than the small but vocal progressives.

I guess this is all to say that dedicating to much of ones time to having great anxiety or disdain for the direction of the country seems like time better spent focusing on one's self and those around them. We vote and maybe take action at our local levels, but beyond that God's plan will prevail.

Its funny, this topic, because I listen to some Christian podcasts based on the east coast and they seem to be convinced that all of the left has this immense hate for those on the right. That's not my experience at all, at least in Texas and within the circle of people that have some friends or family that are democrats. They dislike presidential choices, but beyond that they are loving welcoming people, regardless of others political affiliation. Granted, any family or friends that do vote democrat (at least mostly) are very moderate and never push politics. I think thats one of the problems is that some people, like progressives but also some on the right, on their sleeves far far more than even 8 years ago. Walking around with a political hammer every day makes many things look like leftist nails.

On any given day, any one of us interacts with people of all political beliefs, without knowing them and usually with friendly/congenial success.

We're putting way to much focus on things that we have no control over daily, and that means not enough focus on serving others.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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It is possible to pray for the destruction of an enemy of God while also loving that person. Read imprecatory Psalms. Jesus often quoted them. Particularly Matt. 23.

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We have to be careful how we interpret this though. We need to make sure we are looking at the destructive aspects and not praying for the destruction of the person's being. Some take that way way too far and use it to justify horrible things. Besides, we never know how God may already be working on a persons life (on his timeline). Calling someone an enemy for how one votes, for instance, is absolutely not what scripture says. And one who believes they are doing God's working by treating someone as their enemy without knowing anything but their political party is letting the evil one in.

This is the problem I think the OP is talking about. You can't truly 'love' a person while treating them with 'hate'. For most Christians, myself included, the two hardest things are to forgive myself and to forgive those that we've convinced ourselves have wronged us. And yet Christ calls us to do this and to not let that animosity remain once we've forgiven. All of us have done things that should have cast us into hell if it were not for Christ. So we need to be very careful.

dermdoc said:

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On a personal level, I had a family friend, married to a doctor so need for money, owner of a 1.5 million dollar house and 800k house, at our house every Christmas,, took vacations with us, etc. steal over a million bucks from me over 15 years serving as my office manager. We got about half the money back just recently.

My wife and I prayed for her daily. Seemed to make it easier than getting angry or vengeful.

---

I am so sorry to hear about that. But you are correct, God even tells us how much better it is for our hearts/souls to remove any hate/anger/vengeance. Obviously much easier said than done, but I think many of us have realize we can't truly have peace until we can let go.

We're never required to hate our enemies, even if we can find scripture to seemingly fit our narrative to support it. We are required to love them. I had to leave a job once because of a situation where someone in upper management was intentionally malicious/deceitful and it caused an uproar in my and my families life. But 10 years later I see how that was all part of God's plan and I came out much much better for having left. It took me years to not let my animosity of one person remain in my heart. I wanted vengeance or to at least see them punished. But that's not my place, it's God's. I had to keep my focus on that every time I thought about it.

And with the struggle that took, I couldn't imagine struggling with hate for a large group of people that I know nothing about personally or their hearts.

I came to accept m that there are certain aspects of progressivism that are purely evil. Mutilation of children, putting them in danger by making excuses for pedophiles, abortion. I should also say that aspects of the far right are abhorrent as well and evil like racism etc but It's far less accepted and adopted by the main stream. Nonetheless I hate it all.

and just letting it keep coming is sickening

I imagine the answers to that would vary in some respects based on who you ask. For me, it's the goal of a truly more perfect union with equal rights and opportunity so much as is possible with genuine respect for individual lives, rights, and freedoms.

TresPuertas said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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I imagine the answers to that would vary in some respects based on who you ask. For me, it's the goal of a truly more perfect union with equal rights and opportunity so much as is possible with genuine respect for individual lives, rights, and freedoms.

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and if this is true then i have no issue with you. but when we start talking about mutilation of underage kids, the prosecution of the innocent, and murdering babies in the womb and then marching in the streets in parades celebrating such acts is where i am talking about.

they take pride in sin. they mock the scriptures, and spit in the face of God. those are the people i'm talking about in my OP.

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I'm probably not eh best person to be speaking on this topic. I won't pray for those who I truly consider bad people, well, I do, but not the way Jesus says I should. That said, is it not true that sin has no hierarchy according to God? If that's true, my enemies are as sinful as me, and that that's not really good news for how I do life. If I frame things like that, the. It's a bit easier to make this work.

Sapper Redux said:

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I imagine the answers to that would vary in some respects based on who you ask. For me, it's the goal of a truly more perfect union with equal rights and opportunity so much as is possible with genuine respect for individual lives, rights, and freedoms.

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I have no problem with that in theory. What I see in real life is that to make things "equal", government force is used to punish certain groups.

Equal outcomes are sought after rather than equal opportunities.

dermdoc said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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I imagine the answers to that would vary in some respects based on who you ask. For me, it's the goal of a truly more perfect union with equal rights and opportunity so much as is possible with genuine respect for individual lives, rights, and freedoms.

---

I have no problem with that in theory. What I see in real life is that to make things "equal", government force is used to punish certain groups.

Equal outcomes are sought after rather than equal opportunities.

---

I think a lot of things are discussions about where the trade offs between ideal and reality become too much. For me, it's the pain inflicted on individuals to maintain an arbitrary standard or protect the power/wealth of those entrenched at the top.

It's one of the hardest things to do, love and pray for our enemies. The enemies in Jesus' time would kill you for deviating from their truth so it's not like it harder now than it was then.

When it comes to politics I think it's important to understand that most people are not extreme in their political beliefs.

Going back to what Martin said, you can pray for someone's sin to wreck them in order for them to repent. Or for bad ideas to fail.

Quote:

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Going back to what Martin said, you can pray for someone's sin to wreck them in order for them to repent

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I could be wrong, but I don't think that was the intent of Jesus' instruction to pray for one's enemies

After Peter stood before the high priest and Sanhedrin and they let him go after threatening punishment for teaching in the name of Jesus, he prayed Ps. 2.

1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us."

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 "As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill."

7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

birddog7000 said:

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Frok said:

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It's one of the hardest things to do, love and pray for our enemies. The enemies in Jesus' time would kill you for deviating from their truth so it's not like it harder now than it was then.

When it comes to politics I think it's important to understand that most people are not extreme in their political beliefs.

Going back to what Martin said, you can pray for someone's sin to wreck them in order for them to repent. Or for bad ideas to fail.

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I have begun recently to look at this differently. When I am praying for someone who I think needs a change of heart, I pray for a conviction of their heart. I also pray for God to convict my heart as well, if I am wrong about them, or if I have anything else that needs addressing in my life. I cannot look at the speck of sawdust in my brother's eye, without first removing the plank that is in my own eye. I think God loves to share with us the plank, because He knows if we are seeking to remove it, we are seeking deeper communion with him. It is out of love that He reveals our sins.

Jesus didn't wreck people struggling with sin, He healed and delivered them with a touch of His hand or with a word. He fixes wrecked people, he doesn't further wreck people who are already in disorder.

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I really like that. Thanks.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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After Peter stood before the high priest and Sanhedrin and they let him go after threatening punishment for teaching in the name of Jesus, he prayed Ps. 2.

1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us."

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 "As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill."

7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

---

Let's use the scripture you are referencing:

Acts 4: 23-31

"23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:

"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."

31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly."

I see no reference to bringing wrath down, I read about bold sharing of the Gospel, and healing and signs and wonders. Yes, in the next chapter two people fall dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit, but thank God for His great mercy that this doesn't happen every day.

birddog7000 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

After Peter stood before the high priest and Sanhedrin and they let him go after threatening punishment for teaching in the name of Jesus, he prayed Ps. 2.

1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us."

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 "As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill."

7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

---

Let's use the scripture you are referencing:

Acts 4: 23-31

"23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:

"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."

31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly."

I see no reference to bringing wrath down, I read about bold sharing of the Gospel, and healing and signs and wonders. Yes, in the next chapter two people fall dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit, but thank God for His great mercy that this doesn't happen every day.

---

Another post I really like. To me it is pretty clear what is meant by asking us to pray for our enemies.

birddog7000 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

After Peter stood before the high priest and Sanhedrin and they let him go after threatening punishment for teaching in the name of Jesus, he prayed Ps. 2.

1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us."

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 "As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill."

7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

---

Let's use the scripture you are referencing:

Acts 4: 23-31

"23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:

"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."

31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly."

I see no reference to bringing wrath down, I read about bold sharing of the Gospel, and healing and signs and wonders.

---

Just providing an example prayer for one's enemies. He didn't pray for a conviction of the high priest's heart. Or for God to convict his own heart. He brought their conspiracy before God with the acknowledgment it was all in God's power and will. And for him to give them boldness to speak God's word. Are you suggesting only part of the Psalm was spoken by the Holy Spirit?

Quote:

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Yes, in the next chapter two people fall dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit, but thank God for His great mercy that this doesn't happen every day.

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I'm not exactly sure your point here is. We should be comforted that God's wrath is intermittent?

If you hurt the innocent or the weak you deserve nothing but pain and death.

Quote:

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Jesus didn't wreck people struggling with sin, He healed and delivered them with a touch of His hand or with a word. He fixes wrecked people, he doesn't further wreck people who are already in disorder.

---

To repent you have to understand your sin. There are people I've come across in life who make awful choices and are hostile towards church and faith. Yes, I should pray for them. But sometimes people need to feel some consequences of their sin so they can repent. I don't want them to get rich and happy while losing their soul.

Same goes with bad ideas. I pray for them to fail because bad ideas hurt people. For example, the idea that you can be happy if you only were the opposite sex. It's absolutely destructive yet our society is trying to embrace it out of the desire to be nice.

I can't heal people like Jesus did but notice that he does heal people who are already repentant

UTExan said:

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" Well, how many innocent people do you think have received the death penalty in U.S. history? If it's just one, that sin is on all of us."

No it is not.

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Really? So God is okay with us killing an innocent person?

BluHorseShu said:

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UTExan said:

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" Well, how many innocent people do you think have received the death penalty in U.S. history? If it's just one, that sin is on all of us."

No it is not.

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Really? So God is okay with us killing an innocent person?

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That's why I don't do it.