TheGreatEscape said:

---

There has to be life after death for there to be justice.
If there is no ultimate basis for justice, then there is no ultimate basis for ethics.

It's pretty simple.

From 1 Corinthians 15:32 (ESV)

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

We have got it pretty good as Christians in the US.

There are many who are suffering much more than me, especially across the world.
I have a cousin in mind that has a rare disease that can't be diagnosed yet by the doctors, for instance.

Was just writing about suffering in general.

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

Amen. Let's pray that we continue in these things of the Spirit.

Rocag said:

---

In what way do Christian concepts of the afterlife emphasize justice?

A man who has done nothing but spread pain and misery to others his entire life converts to Christianity on his deathbed. After death he goes to heaven (and many versions of Christianity reject the idea of Purgatory or similar). Perhaps a good example of forgiveness, but where is the justice there? How do you use that as your basis for ethics?

---

Great question.

Well, I'm kind of critical about death bead confessions. But God is merciful. So I would say that there likely are different rewards in heaven for works done by the Gospel and the Holy Spirit.

The alternative is that there is no justice. So at least with those who hold to purgatory that we are like kissing cousins.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

So it goes. . . . .

---

Yep. Living for eternity…

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

I look at it differently, I think "killing the flesh" gives me joy and the most abundant life possible.

Just like a loving Father, God's "wrath" and discipline if for our own good and ultimately brings us the greatest joy.

I know a lot of Christian's who feel like they have to be "suffering" or they are not truly being "good" Christians. We should be the most joyful, hopeful people alive.

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

I look at it differently, I think "killing the flesh" gives me joy and the most abundant life possible.

Just like a loving Father, God's "wrath" and discipline if for our own good and ultimately brings us the greatest joy.

I know a lot of Christian's who feel like they have to be "suffering" or they are not truly being "good" Christians. We should be the most joyful, hopeful people alive.

---

Yes: There is a joy in our sufferings of this present time.

Romans 8:18 (KJV)

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

Suffering to me means real hardship like the early Church had to go through. Loving your neighbor, loving God, giving time and money to church and charities, living a Christian life, helping folks who can't pay you back, etc. is not "suffering" to me. In fact, it is the most abundant, joyful life there is.

Sinful living brings suffering.

Now like all people, we suffer from disease and death. But we have hope.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

So it goes. . . . .

---

Chef's kiss to this response.

dermdoc said:

---

Suffering to me means real hardship like the early Church had to go through. Loving your neighbor, loving God, giving time and money to church and charities, living a Christian life, helping folks who can't pay you back, etc. is not "suffering" to me. In fact, it is the most abundant, joyful life there is.

Sinful living brings suffering.

Now like all people, we suffer from disease and death. But we have hope.

---

Right. Our current persecution is mostly intellectual and not physical.
Good point.

But we still are in a battle with the devil, the flesh, and sin. That's because sin separated us from God.

We continually confess and turn away from our sin because our relationship with God in Christ is more precious than
Wealth or any worldly pleasure.

The last enemy to be defeated is death. We rejoice that we have real hope and a blessed relationship with God in Christ.
We look to him because that is his great office as
Savior!

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

You consider that suffering? I think that was a letter to Christians of that time. They really did suffer for their faith.

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

I look at it differently, I think "killing the flesh" gives me joy and the most abundant life possible.

Just like a loving Father, God's "wrath" and discipline if for our own good and ultimately brings us the greatest joy.

I know a lot of Christian's who feel like they have to be "suffering" or they are not truly being "good" Christians. We should be the most joyful, hopeful people alive.

---

Not if it's all in vain, right? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

You consider that suffering? I think that was a letter to Christians of that time. They really did suffer for their faith.

---

Yes, I consider that suffering. It doesn't always have to be at the hands of men.
Eph. 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We suffer when struggling with these spiritual forces of evil who seek our destruction.

Rom. 8
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirsheirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Suffering in Paul's mind is not limited to 2nd century persecution.

Amen. Even the Buddhists believe that life is suffering…

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

You consider that suffering? I think that was a letter to Christians of that time. They really did suffer for their faith.

---

Yes, I consider that suffering. It doesn't always have to be at the hands of men.
Eph. 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We suffer when struggling with these spiritual forces of evil who seek our destruction.

Rom. 8
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirsheirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Suffering in Paul's mind is not limited to 2nd century persecution.

---

How do you know that?

And did Jesus win or not?

1 Peter 3:14
English Standard Version

14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,

1 Peter 4:1 (ESV)

"Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh,[a] arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,"

And there are several others written to the early physically persecuted church. But they still apply to us.

And yes! We do win in the end!

2 Corinthians 4:17 (ESV)

17 "For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,"

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

You consider that suffering? I think that was a letter to Christians of that time. They really did suffer for their faith.

---

Yes, I consider that suffering. It doesn't always have to be at the hands of men.
Eph. 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

We suffer when struggling with these spiritual forces of evil who seek our destruction.

Rom. 8
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirsheirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Suffering in Paul's mind is not limited to 2nd century persecution.

---

How do you know that?

And did Jesus win or not?

---

How do I know what?

Yes, v1 of that same chapter in Romans says "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Yet we are still to kill the deeds of the flesh.

Same in Col. 3:5 "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you."

Who is "you"? Those raised with Christ (v1), whose life is hidden with Christ (v3), who will appear with him in glory (v4).

We must suffer by putting to death our old man.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

There has to be life after death for there to be justice.
If there is no ultimate basis for justice, then there is no ultimate basis for ethics.

It's pretty simple.

From 1 Corinthians 15:32 (ESV)

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

Why do you assume the universe owes you justice?

Diving into a little more, the assumptions need more explanation.

Why does there need to be life after death for there to be justice?

What specifically is justice and why are you as an individual entitled to it in the form of continuing to live in some form?

Why is this form of justice you've decided is the true form (apparently in the Platonic sense) required to be true in order for ethics to have a basis? Why do ethics (or justice) have to be grounded outside of human reasoning in order to have value?

Sapper Redux said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

There has to be life after death for there to be justice.
If there is no ultimate basis for justice, then there is no ultimate basis for ethics.

It's pretty simple.

From 1 Corinthians 15:32 (ESV)

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

Why do you assume the universe owes you justice?

Diving into a little more, the assumptions need more explanation.

Why does there need to be life after death for there to be justice?

What specifically is justice and why are you as an individual entitled to it in the form of continuing to live in some form?

Why is this form of justice you've decided is the true form (apparently in the Platonic sense) required to be true in order for ethics to have a basis? Why do ethics (or justice) have to be grounded outside of human reasoning in order to have value?

---

God owes me nothing. Thank God I'm not going to get what is fair by the death, burial, and resurrection of our savior. So there is no injustice with God. There is either mercy or justice. Again, no injustice exists.

For there to be a final justice, then there must be a judge.
This lawgiver has always been and is eternal.

One can have ethics without God. But those ethics are limited by the fact that there isn't a final justice in the end.
For it fails to answer fully the notion of why do good.
Who says? On what grounds? For we are only atoms bumping into other atoms, right?


Hebrews 9:27 (ESV)

"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment"

TheGreatEscape said:

---

There has to be life after death for there to be justice.
If there is no ultimate basis for justice, then there is no ultimate basis for ethics.

It's pretty simple.

From 1 Corinthians 15:32 (ESV)

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

As I understand the Christian perspective:

A wire is made by people to conduct electricity. It is intentionally designed, built, and implemented for a purpose. If it functions according to its design, we might say it has successfully served its purpose. If it is built with a variation or flaw that causes it to not function as designed, we may discard the wire.

The claims of Christianity include that we are made by God, designed with something in mind and implemented on Earth for that purpose. Purpose, meaning, justice are absolutes and immutable. Those that live as intended have successfully fulfilled a purpose. Those that do not might be discarded (or tortured).

Christianity - through my perspective:

Do you object to my analogy with the wire because we have free will and a wire does not? Neither human nor wire is in a position to determine its own purpose, its own meaning, or the criteria against which it will be judged. These things are predetermined and then prescribed by our respective Creators. A wire's variation that does not allow it to perform according to its purpose has no value. So what value is human diversity to an absolute Creator that demands conformity?

What free will do I have? Free will to choose my own favorite color? When the 'rightness' of any meaningful choice is set and all 'wrong' choices are voided in the end, we have no free will.

Christian free will is that we are permitted to choose to do exactly as we are supposed to do or be annihilated or tortured. Do you have a perspective on morality, ethics, justice that differs from God's? You are wrong. You are not permitted to retain that position. Conform. . . . or be zapped out of existence or chewed by Satan for eternity. It is a spiritual and intellectual slavery.

All human discussions and debates about meaning and purpose and justice are meaningless. Every attempt at philosophy, every thought or emotion, and any experience you've ever had are like an intellectual and humanitarian form of nihilism. The human experience has no value and no amount of any of thought / emotion / reason / experience can possibly 'move the needle' - All that matters is the predetermined and prescribed Truth. Cold immutable absolutism.

God is the ultimate authoritarian. He has created me with my flaws and variations with the intention that I should serve a purpose. God's love is that I should do as I am told and reject my flaws and variations or be tortured. God does not love us as we are. When you love someone as they are, you do not command them to change.

If Christianity is true, then all important forms of human diversity, individuality, or alternate purposes are worse than meaningless . . . they are our flaw. The bug in the system. The thing preventing us from our purpose. I find it horribly depressing to think that our only potential value is in submission to what we have been commanded to do.

A different perspective:

A worldview not based in absolutes and objective truths might be one where eternal meaning and justice have no value, but it is a worldview where human diversity, human reason, human emotion, and human experience does have value. . . even if the value is merely assigned by ourselves.

Human philosophy, rational thought, and ethics have value. These are our tools for understanding our reality and determining what our purpose is.

The human experience has value. It informs the items above. Diversity of thought and opinion has value. Discussion and debate about morality and ethics has value. Respect for others with different worldviews has value. The humility to compromise and coexist has value.

A non infinite value to our lives means that this time that we have now is infinitely valuable.

Kurt,

I'm praying that God changes your will as He has done
for me and many others.
I'll try to respond more later because I'm busy at work.
But that's the start of it.

Romans 10:8-10 (ESV)

8 {But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. }

kurt vonnegut said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

There has to be life after death for there to be justice.
If there is no ultimate basis for justice, then there is no ultimate basis for ethics.

It's pretty simple.

From 1 Corinthians 15:32 (ESV)

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

As I understand the Christian perspective:

A wire is made by people to conduct electricity. It is intentionally designed, built, and implemented for a purpose. If it functions according to its design, we might say it has successfully served its purpose. If it is built with a variation or flaw that causes it to not function as designed, we may discard the wire.

The claims of Christianity include that we are made by God, designed with something in mind and implemented on Earth for that purpose. Purpose, meaning, justice are absolutes and immutable. Those that live as intended have successfully fulfilled a purpose. Those that do not might be discarded (or tortured).
I

---

The fact is that God could cause none of us to be able to escape this life of so much suffering around us. And God is free to do so.

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases. (Psalm 115:3)

God never becomes the victim of circumstance. It's why the Gospel is so attractive to me. No matter what I go through here on earth that seems unfair, and many have it worse than I do, God offers his innocent Son to suffer for us, even death on the cross.

Kurt,

One thing that stood out to me is you find all these discussions to be meaninglessness. I find your argument and appeals to be shortsighted and nihilistic.

I'm on a phone that is having problems. So I may not be able to break everything down. My mind doesn't work that way anyway. I'm not very smart.

Atheism still has to deal with the problem of evil, too. The main difference is that there is no final justice for the atheistic worldview.

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

There has to be life after death for there to be justice.
If there is no ultimate basis for justice, then there is no ultimate basis for ethics.

It's pretty simple.

From 1 Corinthians 15:32 (ESV)

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

We have got it pretty good as Christians in the US.

---

Johnny Football got 8 million dollars and it didn't soothe is suffering soul. You can have all the pleasures in the world and be tormented 24/7.

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

You consider that suffering? I think that was a letter to Christians of that time. They really did suffer for their faith.

---

This is why you need the Orthodox faith. You miss out on the centuries of suffering Christians in many different situations. Regardless one of Americas very few saints- ""The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials, we must be living in a different world." Seraphim Rose

Klaus Schwab said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

---

You kill the flesh. Give up things your indwelling sin wants satisfied. Set your mind on things above, not below. Hundreds of other ways Christ calls us to.

---

You consider that suffering? I think that was a letter to Christians of that time. They really did suffer for their faith.

---

This is why you need the Orthodox faith. You miss out on the centuries of suffering Christians in many different situations. Regardless one of Americas very few saints- ""The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials, we must be living in a different world." Seraphim Rose

---

All Christians share in this history.

Rocag said:

---

In what way do Christian concepts of the afterlife emphasize justice?

A man who has done nothing but spread pain and misery to others his entire life converts to Christianity on his deathbed. After death he goes to heaven (and many versions of Christianity reject the idea of Purgatory or similar). Perhaps a good example of forgiveness, but where is the justice there? How do you use that as your basis for ethics?

---

This is one of the worst examples used by atheists. They think the thief on the cross had no repentance his entire life and nothing leading up to that moment with Christ. Only a last second rational change to gain paradise. Not thinking for a moment that he had a life of regrets, repentance, and suffering. Only judging his worse moments.

Actually a perfect example of why the angry and prideful atheist ends up alone in the end, too prideful to understand why his or her soul is separated from communion with others.

Klaus Schwab said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

There has to be life after death for there to be justice.
If there is no ultimate basis for justice, then there is no ultimate basis for ethics.

It's pretty simple.

From 1 Corinthians 15:32 (ESV)

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

May I ask how you are suffering?

We have got it pretty good as Christians in the US.

---

Johnny Football got 8 million dollars and it didn't soothe is suffering soul. You can have all the pleasures in the world and be tormented 24/7.

---

Mark 8:36 (ESV)

"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"

Sapper Redux said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

There has to be life after death for there to be justice.
If there is no ultimate basis for justice, then there is no ultimate basis for ethics.

It's pretty simple.

From 1 Corinthians 15:32 (ESV)

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Otherwise our suffering is all in vain.

---

Why do you assume the universe owes you justice?

Diving into a little more, the assumptions need more explanation.

Why does there need to be life after death for there to be justice?

What specifically is justice and why are you as an individual entitled to it in the form of continuing to live in some form?

Why is this form of justice you've decided is the true form (apparently in the Platonic sense) required to be true in order for ethics to have a basis? Why do ethics (or justice) have to be grounded outside of human reasoning in order to have value?

---

The universe isn't a person so stop giving it personhood. Ethics have to be rooted in a divine mind in order to justify universals and avoid relativism because obviously human beings are finite. Of course you can't justify universals so you will continue to take an arbitrary position in life, even though you follow most of the rules anyways because you don't want to be that crazy person.

kurt vonnegut said:

---

even if the value is merely assigned by ourselves

---

and with this statement you fall into relativism and therefore an arbitrary view on life.