Schism

Throw them out

Article from February on the German situation. It's coming

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2023/02/23/the-catholic-church-in-germany-after-the-synodal-way-three-scenarios/

This is your man?

"In disobeying formally such an unheard-of prohibition of an inalienable patrimony of the Roman Church, one in fact obeys the Catholic Church of all ages and all the Popes who diligently celebrated and commanded the preservation of that venerable and canonized form of the Mass."

Remember that the German Synodal Path was not sanctioned. It's easy to overlook that all important detail.

Captain Pablo said:

---

Schism

Throw them out

---

I don't see the Pope doing this. Rest easy!

Maybe it's because I follow this Pope, like I have the others since JP2.

1. JP2 was engaging and brought to light the Theology of the Body in his numerous Wednesday audiences. He did so many more things, even cutting a CD. I grew up with this Pope and cried when he passed away into heaven.

2. Pope Benedict was a theologian at heart. Deep reflections, but just a short time in office. I knew more about him as Cardinal Ratzinger (head of the CDF) than as Pope.

3. Pope Francis is clearly taking aim at the pastoral aspect of the ministry. This coming Synod (started by JP2) is just a continuation of his focus. I don't expect any radical changes, but I do see him directing the Bishops to focus on the mission and less so on the media.

My $0.02

Dad-O-Lot said:

---

I have been very skeptical of this entire "Synodal" movement.

It seems like a massive opening for attempting some sort of Democratic Process for changing the teachings of the Church.

From the start, I recognized the whole process for being very ripe to be driven by those with agendas contrary to the long-held teachings and traditions of the Church.

I just pray that the Holy Spirit will protect the Church from this.

I am heartened when I remember how the majority of Bishops seemed to be all for supporting hormonal birth control and how many spoke out loudly against Humanae Vitae when it was published.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide Pope Francis and his successors to reject much of what is now being proposed regardless of any "majority" says or believes.

The Church is not and should not be a Democracy.

---

Love your posts, and I agree.

My question is what to do if the synod ignores the rejection? What's the remedy? Pray that the synod sees the light? And if they don't?

I had a conversation with an Eastern Orthodox friend awhile back. We were talking about scandals in Churches. I lamented that the Catholic Church has this problem and that, and said it was really great how the EO Church didn't have these problems.

He quickly corrected me, basically saying the EO has plenty of problems with rogue clergy and laity, but (his words) "we just have a way to deal with it"

In our situation, we have a Church in a country of 80,000,000 people that has gone rogue. The Pope has warned them, and they've ignored him. Now what? Now this nonsense has got a toe in the doorway here. How does the Vatican "deal with it"? However the Pope wants? And how do the faithful fight back against forces attempting to damage and destroy Christ's church? Pray? To what extent can the faithful speak out and push back against those trying to damage Christ's Church. Because I can assure you, those pushing this are not sitting back. They are on the move, and will take what they can get until someone pushes back

Genuine questions for those of you knowledgeable in this

I don't think the German Church will break away. Will they do some things that are out of step with Rome? Probably. They already are in some cases.

The saying that the more things change, the more they stay the same I think is what will happen.

Your conversation with your friend reminded me of a similar conversation I had with a Friar for the Southern Province of the Dominican Order some time ago.

I had read about a former Dominican, Matthew Fox, and his take or lack there of, about original sin. For years he remained in the Order and continued with full faculties. It wasn't until then Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) began to push the Order to investigate that he was eventually expelled from the Order - for disobedience. Not for what he wrote or for his views which were not in line with Rome (CDF).

I asked the Friar, why hadn't the Order expelled him sooner? His answer surprised me but gave me an insight into how the Church operates -at least the Order of Preachers which count three Doctors of the Church from their ranks! He basically said that there was no hurry, time was on our side. Also, what if some of what Fox said was true? He said "some" not "all."

This is what the media and maybe the average Joe Catholic does not understand, that the Church moves slow. In the meantime, you should continue to grow and cast your net deeper.

Seems like running towards heresy leads to great numbers in the pews, no wonder people are slow-playing this and giving it time to see what "some truths" we can find.

https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/what-do-plummeting-catholic-numbers

JUST IN: #PopeFrancis has personally appointed as US members of the October 2023 Synod on Synodality: Cardinals Blasé Cupich, Wilton Gregory & Robert McElroy, as well as Fr James Martin. Cardinal O'Malley & +Etienne of Seattle also named. Full list here: https://t.co/J4hQ5hQN6i pic.twitter.com/D9HiDEGUKN

— Diane Montagna (@dianemontagna) July 7, 2023

Good grief

Crazy that this is in large part a response to people leaving the church

Not trying to defend or criticize these appointments by the pope but it is worth pointing out that the original delegation of bishops elected by the members of the US Bishops to attend the Synod are Archbishop Timothy Broglio, President of the USCCB, Bishop Daniel Flores of Brownsville, Bishop Robert Barron of Winona-Rochester, Bishop Kevin Rhodes of Fort Wayne-South Bend, and Cardinal Timothy Dolan, Archbishop of New York.

Here is a full list of Americans attending the most current Synod in October 2023. FYI, Bishop Robert Barron is still going. Please read before posting misinformation!

(LINK)

1.2 What is Synodality? Background for this Synod
By convening this Synod, Pope Francis invites the entire Church to reflect on a theme that is decisive for its life and mission: "It is precisely this path of synodality which God expects of the Church of the third millennium."[3] Following in the wake of the renewal of the Church proposed by the Second Vatican Council, this common journey together is both a gift and a task. By reflecting together on the journey that has been made so far, the diverse members of the Church will be able to learn from one another's experiences and perspectives, guided by the Holy Spirit (PD, 1). Enlightened by the Word of God and united in prayer, we will be able to discern the processes to seek God's will and pursue the pathways to which God calls us towards deeper communion, fuller participation, and greater openness to fulfilling our mission in the world. The International Theological Commission (ITC) describes synodality this way:

'Synod' is an ancient and venerable word in the Tradition of the Church, whose meaning draws on the deepest themes of Revelation […] It indicates the path along which the People of God walk together. Equally, it refers to the Lord Jesus, who presents Himself as 'the way, the truth and the life' (Jn 14,6), and to the fact that Christians, His followers, were originally called 'followers of the Way' (cf. Acts 9,2; 19,9.23; 22,4; 24,14.22).

First and foremost, synodality denotes the particular style that qualifies the life and mission of the Church, expressing her nature as the People of God journeying together and gathering in assembly, summoned by the Lord Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the Gospel. Synodality ought to be expressed in the Church's ordinary way of living and working.

In this sense, synodality enables the entire People of God to walk forward together, listening to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, to participate in the mission of the Church in the communion that Christ establishes between us. Ultimately, this path of walking together is the most effective way of manifesting and putting into practice the nature of the Church as the pilgrim and missionary People of God (PD, 1).

The entire People of God shares a common dignity and vocation through Baptism. All of us are called in virtue of our Baptism to be active participants in the life of the Church. In parishes, small Christian communities, lay movements, religious communities, and other forms of communion, women and men, young people and the elderly, we are all invited to listen to one another in order to hear the promptings of the Holy Spirit, who comes to guide our human efforts, breathing life and vitality into the Church and leading us into deeper communion for our mission in the world. As the Church embarks on this synodal journey, we must strive to ground ourselves in experiences of authentic listening and discernment on the path of becoming the Church that God calls us to be.

Captain Pablo said:

---

Crazy that this is in large part a response to people leaving the church

---

False.

ETA:

While recent Synods have examined themes such as the new evangelization, the family, young people, and the Amazon, the present Synod focuses on the topic of synodality itself.

PabloSerna said:

---

(LINK)

1.2 What is Synodality? Background for this Synod
By convening this Synod, Pope Francis invites the entire Church to reflect on a theme that is decisive for its life and mission: "It is precisely this path of synodality which God expects of the Church of the third millennium."[3] Following in the wake of the renewal of the Church proposed by the Second Vatican Council, this common journey together is both a gift and a task. By reflecting together on the journey that has been made so far, the diverse members of the Church will be able to learn from one another's experiences and perspectives, guided by the Holy Spirit (PD, 1). Enlightened by the Word of God and united in prayer, we will be able to discern the processes to seek God's will and pursue the pathways to which God calls us towards deeper communion, fuller participation, and greater openness to fulfilling our mission in the world. The International Theological Commission (ITC) describes synodality this way:

'Synod' is an ancient and venerable word in the Tradition of the Church, whose meaning draws on the deepest themes of Revelation […] It indicates the path along which the People of God walk together. Equally, it refers to the Lord Jesus, who presents Himself as 'the way, the truth and the life' (Jn 14,6), and to the fact that Christians, His followers, were originally called 'followers of the Way' (cf. Acts 9,2; 19,9.23; 22,4; 24,14.22).

First and foremost, synodality denotes the particular style that qualifies the life and mission of the Church, expressing her nature as the People of God journeying together and gathering in assembly, summoned by the Lord Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the Gospel. Synodality ought to be expressed in the Church's ordinary way of living and working.

In this sense, synodality enables the entire People of God to walk forward together, listening to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, to participate in the mission of the Church in the communion that Christ establishes between us. Ultimately, this path of walking together is the most effective way of manifesting and putting into practice the nature of the Church as the pilgrim and missionary People of God (PD, 1).

The entire People of God shares a common dignity and vocation through Baptism. All of us are called in virtue of our Baptism to be active participants in the life of the Church. In parishes, small Christian communities, lay movements, religious communities, and other forms of communion, women and men, young people and the elderly, we are all invited to listen to one another in order to hear the promptings of the Holy Spirit, who comes to guide our human efforts, breathing life and vitality into the Church and leading us into deeper communion for our mission in the world. As the Church embarks on this synodal journey, we must strive to ground ourselves in experiences of authentic listening and discernment on the path of becoming the Church that God calls us to be.

---

Break this down for us. What does this mean? I'm confused by all this and it strikes me as word salad.

From what I can tell Synodality is actually a synonym for word salad. They could have boiled it down to one sentence: We all need to listen to others to understand their experiences.

But someone somewhere will be talking and opining. And make no mistake, it won't be the traditional voices from the listening sessions, those will be censored/filtered.

To be sure, when some long-held Church teaching changes as a result of the Synod you rad trads better be listening and not talking or opining.

PabloSerna said:

---

Here is a full list of Americans attending the most current Synod in October 2023. FYI, Bishop Robert Barron is still going. Please read before posting misinformation!

---

It's unclear to me if you are directing that statement to me. Directly above this post I pointed out the names of the original attendees.

But here's the question: why is a priest (not a bishop) like James Martin being invited to attend?

Apologies if I misunderstood your initial remark. Some people, not saying you, were surprised to find out more people (lay, religious, clergy) were added.

So here is a point to remember, it helped me, this upcoming Synod (2 years!) will put out a non-binding report when it is all over. It's more of a temperature check or a "thorns and roses" kind of thing you do in Scouting after a camp out.

After that, the Pope will put out an encyclical which will be inspired by the whole Synodal process going back to 2019. That document, will give pastoral direction to all the Bishops.

HTH

I don't know about changing on teachings. You may be thinking of blessing same sex couples (What the German Church is doing already). I would be surprised if anything more than, we need to be more welcoming to all, comes out of this.

Again, the Bishops are there to facilitate the listening process and discussion. Some things will make it to the final report- but that is all it will be - a report. We feel these things are import to the church at this time and we need to get on the same page across the world kinda of list. Relax!

Church is gonna move slow. I'm glad that we are at least talking about people that feel marginalized. They long to be church and it is sad that we are telling them to fix themselves without the love of Christ and his people.